Bohs in court

SectionF

Babybing wrote: »

What I am getting at is the debate about attracting new fans and getting people interested. If your coming to the LOI now none of those clubs are a particularly great choice to nail your support too. Major change is needed....admittedly Im at a loss to describe what those changes could be

You talk as if live football is and always has been nothing more than a product to be marketed to consumers. You don't even entertain the notion that that alone actually is never going to work in Ireland.

Benedict XVI

Babybing wrote: »

Thats fair enough Des, perhaps I could've worded myself better.


What I am getting at is the debate about attracting new fans and getting people interested. If your coming to the LOI now none of those clubs are a particularly great choice to nail your support too. Major change is needed....admittedly Im at a loss to describe what that change could entail

Exactly, who do you start supporting when they may be bust and or at best down a division after a season.

_blank_

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Exactly, who do you start supporting when they may be bust and or at best down a division after a season.

It's very hard to start supporting a team at the moment.

I wouldn't expect any "new" fans for a number of years.

And frankly, I don't blame anyone.

I'm like a camel with a hundred tonne of straw on my back.

There's only so many more straws I can take.

podge018

The answer is pretty simple really. You support your local team and stick with them.

Running Bing

SectionF wrote: »

You talk as if live football is and always has been nothing more than a product to be marketed to consumers. You don't even entertain the notion that that alone actually is never going to work in Ireland.

No I did not mean to imply live football is nothing more than a product but lets face reality, the major issue the league has faced over the last couple of decades is getting people into the grounds. Just a few seasons back the league changed to a summer one in the hopes of attracting more fans.


Live football may not be a product but in this day and age for a league to thrive sometimes it has to be treated that way and right now the LOI is a product I would not want to buy.

Benedict XVI

SectionF wrote: »

You talk as if live football is and always has been nothing more than a product to be marketed to consumers. You don't even entertain the notion that that alone actually is never going to work in Ireland.

Ah please less of this consumers v fans s**t.

I have a friend from Drogheda but living in Navan, he is a big soccer fan who has had a marginal interest in Drogheda Utd all his life.
He has a 6 year old son, since Drogheda became competitive he and his son have been to going to Drogheda games regularly.

Now Drogheda in trouble and may end up down a division in a year or so. Do you really think the kid and the dad are going to be as inclined to travel to Drogheda matches as much if they are in a lower division and not going places?

Of course not.

All we hear on this board is that people should go to LOI games more.
How the F**K is someone going to decide to start following a LOI team (and it is only natural to follow a winning team) if that team are going to be s**t or bust a year later.

SectionF

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Now Drogheda in trouble and may end up down a division in a year or so. Do you really think the kid and the dad are going to be as inclined to travel to Drogheda matches as much if they are in a lower division and not going places?

Of course not.

Do you think they should shop around for another club?

_blank_

Lads, they are right.

Who in their right mind would choose to become a Bohemians supporter today, tomorrow, or next year?

What possible motivation is there?

They are a shambles at the moment.

The LEAGUE is a shambles at the moment.

These two stories today put the league in a VERY bad light.

This is the third champions in a row to have financial trouble.

It's hardly worth getting involved any more.

Benedict XVI

SectionF wrote: »

Do you think they should shop around for another club?

No but how is the league supposed to keep recently returned fans and gain new ones if the last 3 champions are now in financial trouble.

I appreciate that you and the likes of Des and ONYD (God rest him/her) are fans of clubs for years and would never stop supporting them, but the league will not grown without new fans.

Benedict XVI

podge018 wrote: »

The answer is pretty simple really. You support your local team and stick with them.

My local clubs are Limerick and Cork, each 2 hrs away, and I have no natural attraction to either

Running Bing

SectionF wrote: »

Do you think they should shop around for another club?

You see section F its very hard for somebody to just wake up in the morning and say to themselves "ok Im a Pats fan, I love my club, I am a passionate fan, its in my heart and I will follow them through thick and thin".


Look at the English clubs people support....when your a 5 year old you go for the best team or the team your big bro supports and its only through years of supporting that team you foster that passion.

If your 5, Manu are top of the league, you decide to start supporting them and next year there in the first division a six year old is not going to say "this is my club and I stick by them".

I want the LOI of ireland to be great, I want to go to Richmond park and see it packed to the rafters with screaming fans and I want the LOI to be a realistic alternative for talented young footballers who go to England. The only way it will ever get to that level is if new people are attracted to it and that will only happen if it is a solid product.

I do think there is an element of fan who no matter how much they moan about barstoolers and low attendances secretly revel in the fact that the league is not well supported and I think that attitude has to change.

SectionF

Benedict XVI wrote: »

My local clubs are Limerick and Cork, each 2 hrs away, and I have no natural attraction to either

You're absolved. Cast-iron excuse not to support football, and I'm sure you have a wonderful GAA outfit. What about the other 90% of the country, or has everyone gone rural resettlement crazy?

Nalz

so where to from here for Bohs?

Xavi6

First Division?

Nalz

Xavi6 wrote: »

First Division?

We love Robinho we do! Just kidding, I was being serious whats the likelihood of survival from all this

SectionF

Trilla wrote: »

so where to from here for Bohs?

1. Ignore the LoI is doomed wishful-thinking brigade
2. Take stock
3. Keep a cool head
4. Plan for the future.

Xavi6

Trilla wrote: »

We love Robinho we do

It's ok, Shels will wave to you on the way past.

Nalz

Xavi6 wrote: »

It's ok, Shels will wave to you on the way past.

lol

ah hopefully something will be resolved soon, hopefully

Xavi6

I hope so anyway with regard to them going bust. No one likes to see a club go tits up. Relegated maybe but not tits up!

Nalz

Xavi6 wrote: »

I hope so anyway with regard to them going bust. No one likes to see a club go tits up. Relegated maybe but not tits up!

If the courts think Bohs broke the rules and thats the penalty then so beit - I hope it doesnt happen though. Was looking forward to a good few decent Dublin derbys next year.

Touch wood something or someone can save this situation

simonw

What is the actual punishment for breaching the wage cap? Is breaching the wage cap a worse sin than not being able to pay the players and the club's bills?

Guy:Incognito

I'll throw myself in with the ignorant masses here but having read the various explanations I'm still more or less in the dark about the ins and outs.

Why are they sellign "parts" of the ground?I thought the deal was to sell up and get out?

I seem to remember somethign being said before regarding the terrace that backs onto the shopping centre, is it something to do with that?

dfx-

The league isn't in a shambles because of this. A club who sold something twice and budgeted €1m are paying for it now. That is only good for the league..that sort of business sense should be weeded out and celebrated with Drogheda leading just in front. It's no surprise that those who buy the league and can't afford it, pay for it later. No long term view despite Shels and Rovers.

Only Kelleher can for now afford the spend and then ask questions later approach. Only McDonnell and Pats' innate sh!teness stops them.

If the Carroll deal is off, then they'll own the rest of Dalymount to pay any debts if needs be again I suppose.

Still satisfying though and I can call in my congratulations on the winning the league too. :pac:

redzerdrog

dont know what to say really. what a year it has been for the eircom league its a disaster after disaster.
all i can say to bohs fans is chin up there will always be sad bitter lads wishing for clubs to die. best of luck for what ever the future holds

podge018

Trilla wrote: »

If the courts think Bohs broke the rules and thats the penalty then so beit - I hope it doesnt happen though. Was looking forward to a good few decent Dublin derbys next year.

Touch wood something or someone can save this situation

The courts don't think Bohs have broken any league rules whatsoever.

The league wont be able to decide if they've broken rules re. wage cap until the end of the financial year when they submit their accounts.

bohsman

Albion paid €1m for a piece of land behind one of the goals, apparently the deal was never signed and we eventually gave them a cheque for the full amount which they refused. Interesting wording from the judge - "Mr Justice John Edwards ruled that Bohemians hold a section of the stadium in trust for the owners of the adjoining Phibsboro Shopping Centre" "The judge said he had come to the view that Albion are entitled to an interest in the land involved because there was 'clear evidence of repeated promises, representations and inducements' held out that if Bohs were paid money on account by Albion, it (Albion) would get the land."

My main concern is that the club will panic and try to rush through a new cut price sale before the end of the season for the rest of the land to stay below the wage cap but damage ourselves for the future.

Benedict XVI

SectionF wrote: »

You're absolved. Cast-iron excuse not to support football, and I'm sure you have a wonderful GAA outfit. What about the other 90% of the country, or has everyone gone rural resettlement crazy?

I'm just pointing out that it is hard to support LOI football when the nearest teams are 2 hours away, one in the first division and the other nearly bust.

I never said anything about support soccer at other levels.

If however there was a team in the area, playing in a national league where all clubs were on a equal footing, then that would be something that I would certainly give a good try, and others would too.

The last time a opening appeared in the LOI it was filled by a club located a few miles from where another club had gone bust less that 2 years earlier.

That makes no sense.

Scrap the league

Merge the teams where there are too many and create new ones where they 'may' be a market.
Introduce a salary cap and revenue sharing.
Make sure grounds meet a certain standard.
See how it goes, if it fails so what, go back to the old setup.

bohsman

Benedict XVI wrote: »

I'm just pointing out that it is hard to support LOI football when the nearest teams are 2 hours away, one in the first division and the other nearly bust.

I never said anything about support soccer at other levels.

If however there was a team in the area, playing in a national league where all clubs were on a equal footing, then that would be something that I would certainly give a good try, and others would too.

The last time a opening appeared in the LOI it was filled by a club located a few miles from where another club had gone bust less that 2 years earlier.

That makes no sense.

Scrap the league

Merge the teams where there are too many and create new ones where they 'may' be a market.
Introduce a salary cap and revenue sharing.
Make sure grounds meet a certain standard.
See how it goes, if it fails so what, go back to the old setup.

So if all that happens and one of the teams is set up on your doorstep you might take a bit of interest? While 20,000 fans that go week in week out will stop going. Sounds like a great idea.

Pure Cork

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Scrap the league

Merge the teams where there are too many and create new ones where they 'may' be a market.
Introduce a salary cap and revenue sharing.
Make sure grounds meet a certain standard.
See how it goes, if it fails so what, go back to the old setup.

The league badly needs reform and restructuring.

Can you imagine what fans would think if their club had to merge with another? I think that there are too many Dublin teams, and UCD should be levelled, but do you envisage any mergers involving Shams, Bohs, Pats, Shels? I can only imagine what the fans would think of it. It wouldn't be too bad if we could get rid of UCD and Fingal.

Grounds have to meet a certain standard. Clubs can't get a licence without a suitable ground. I don't know what the situation is with football grounds around the country that aren't used for LOI games, but I doubt there are many good enough. Good grounds cost money, and then you can have planning problems trying to build new ones. Even if the GAA allowed the use of their stadiums, a lot of them are worse than LOI grounds. Pairc Ui Chaoimh is a complete s**thole compared to the Cross (which is arguably the best LOI ground in the country). We badly need a new GAA stadium in Cork.

There might be an initial interest in something like you're suggesting, but it would soon die down. Why do most Irish people support one of the top four clubs in England, or Celtic? Why did we see an influx on Chelsea jerseys in the last few years? Why do GAA league games get poor attendances? Why do the Cork footballers get a sh*t support compared to the hurlers? Most Irish people aren't actually interested in sport, and aren't interested in regularly attending live games, not just LOI games.

Pure Cork

Babybing wrote: »

I do think there is an element of fan who no matter how much they moan about barstoolers and low attendances secretly revel in the fact that the league is not well supported and I think that attitude has to change.

99.99% of LOI fans would love to see big crowds at games week in week out.

Benedict XVI

bohsman wrote: »

So if all that happens and one of the teams is set up on your doorstep you might take a bit of interest? While 20,000 fans that go week in week out will stop going. Sounds like a great idea.

What makes you think that all current fans will stop going if there is a change in structure like I described ?

Yes there will be fans who will say 'I'm not going cos my club are no longer the way they were', but there will still be fans who will go anyway, give it time and if the product is good enough the people will come back, plus you will have new fans that will support the new clubs.

LOI fans around here seem to be afraid of new fans

bohsman

Dont know who you support but say the FA forced Liverpool and Everton to merge, Man U and Man C merged, Arsenal and Spurs, Portsmouth and Southampton etc etc would you support these new teams and be delighted that your teams 120 year history has been wiped out?

Irish people seem to have an inferiority complex, they would rather celebrate beating England once every 20 years than even think that it could become the norm.

Pure Cork

Benedict XVI wrote: »

What makes you think that all current fans will stop going if there is a change in structure like I described ?

Yes there will be fans who will say 'I'm not going cos my club are no longer the way they were', but there will still be fans who will go anyway, give it time and if the product is good enough the people will come back, plus you will have new fans that will support the new clubs.

LOI fans around here seem to be afraid of new fans

The more people that regularly come to games the better. It's madness to suggest otherwise. Just because we don't agree with your vision doesn't mean we don't want the league and attendances to improve.

Do you honestly not see any problem with merging say Shams and Bohs? Why don't we merge River and Boca while we're at it?

How do you expect the "product" to be good enough? There would be a massive issue with stadiums around the country. Who exactly is going to set up all these new clubs? Where's the money going to come from?

As I said, there'd be an initial interest which would soon die away. Why do GAA league games get poor attendances?

John_C

Pure Cork wrote: »

Why do GAA league games get poor attendances?

Good point, we should merge Dublin with Offaly and split Kilkenny in two to make the Leinster Hurling Championship more competitive.

dfx-

Bohs are in Cobh aren't they..?



:pac:

Xavi6

Benedict XVI wrote: »

What makes you think that all current fans will stop going if there is a change in structure like I described ?

Yes there will be fans who will say 'I'm not going cos my club are no longer the way they were', but there will still be fans who will go anyway, give it time and if the product is good enough the people will come back, plus you will have new fans that will support the new clubs.

LOI fans around here seem to be afraid of new fans

No true fans of a current club would go near a league for of merged teams, and rightly so. These clubs heve existed for over a century and loyalties have been passed down from generation to generation. It's got absolutely nothing to do with fearing change or new fans. I would love to see 10,000 fans in Tolka every week, but only if it was for a Shels came and not some farcical club born out of an FAI marketing ploy.

No thanks.

LuckyLloyd

Pure Cork wrote: »

The league badly needs reform and restructuring.

Can you imagine what fans would think if their club had to merge with another? I think that there are too many Dublin teams, and UCD should be levelled, but do you envisage any mergers involving Shams, Bohs, Pats, Shels? I can only imagine what the fans would think of it. It wouldn't be too bad if we could get rid of UCD and Fingal.

Grounds have to meet a certain standard. Clubs can't get a licence without a suitable ground. I don't know what the situation is with football grounds around the country that aren't used for LOI games, but I doubt there are many good enough. Good grounds cost money, and then you can have planning problems trying to build new ones. Even if the GAA allowed the use of their stadiums, a lot of them are worse than LOI grounds. Pairc Ui Chaoimh is a complete s**thole compared to the Cross (which is arguably the best LOI ground in the country). We badly need a new GAA stadium in Cork.

There might be an initial interest in something like you're suggesting, but it would soon die down. Why do most Irish people support one of the top four clubs in England, or Celtic? Why did we see an influx on Chelsea jerseys in the last few years? Why do GAA league games get poor attendances? Why do the Cork footballers get a sh*t support compared to the hurlers? Most Irish people aren't actually interested in sport, and aren't interested in regularly attending live games, not just LOI games.

wat

UCD have earned their place amongst the top clubs in Ireland by being able to compete with them (too good for lower division, relegation battlers in the top division). The club has been in existence for over a century. How would getting rid of them help fix the league?

If the interest for the game in this country is unable to support professional football financially (and the evidence from this season is that it cannot) then clubs should scale back to semi - professional or amateur football. Surely it is a better alternative to clubs going into administration / having the constant threat of busting hanging over their heads? You will still maintain the tradition and rivalries - and if the motivation of the current active fanbase is supporting their local clubs / players and seeing live ball because it is 'real' then you aren't going to lose a whole lot.

gimmick

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Now Drogheda in trouble and may end up down a division in a year or so. Do you really think the kid and the dad are going to be as inclined to travel to Drogheda matches as much if they are in a lower division and not going places?

Of course not.

That is the biggest load of shiiite I have ever seen on this board.Are you seriously saying that this "friend" of yours will only support a winning team? Should everyone stop supporting their team because they may not win silverware this season?

Bloody hell, amazing. Absolutely astonishing rubbish.

Benedict XVI wrote: »

That makes no sense.

Scrap the league

Merge the teams where there are too many and create new ones where they 'may' be a market.

Hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Utter tripe. When the league is scrapped will you be happy to have no "national" team? Go away, and try and discuss something you actually know about.

Guy:Incognito

gimmick wrote: »

Hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Utter tripe. When the league is scrapped will you be happy to have no "national" team? Go away, and try and discuss something you actually know about.

While his post is rubbish, it should be read as "scrap the current format, merge the tems etc etc" he wasnt suggesting packign up and walkign away altogether.

Gavin "shels"

Big Club? Nah they've always been minnows.

SantryRed

Benedict XVI wrote: »

What makes you think that all current fans will stop going if there is a change in structure like I described ?

Yes there will be fans who will say 'I'm not going cos my club are no longer the way they were', but there will still be fans who will go anyway, give it time and if the product is good enough the people will come back, plus you will have new fans that will support the new clubs.

LOI fans around here seem to be afraid of new fans

HOw would you feel if the team you supported where merged with the biggest rivals?

If they do that, I'm gone. Wouldn't support the league again.

LuckyLloyd

SantryRed wrote: »

If they do that, I'm gone. Wouldn't support the league again.

If the league returned to semi professional / amateur status would you still be as involved as you are now?

SantryRed

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If the league returned to semi professional / amateur status would you still be as involved as you are now?

Yes. I am. Shels are part time. I support them even more than I did than when they were full-time. Feel more connected to the club.

I was responding to Benedicts point of merging clubs. That wouldn't work.

podge018

Bohs must cut wages

http://www.herald.ie/sport/soccer/irish/bohs-must-cut-wages-1529235.html

League winning Bohemians players will be obliged to take pay decrease to balance the clubs budget following court decision

Saturday November 08 2008

The players from Bohemians' league-winning team will be among those to feel the after effects from yesterday's court case which will delay the club's plan to complete the €60m sale of Dalymount Park.

Bohs may have won the league title with four games to spare and can set a league record for points won in a season if they win just one of their last two league games, the first one tonight away to Cobh Ramblers (Bohs currently have 79 points and the all-time record is the 80-point tally reached by Dundalk in 1982).

But one of the side effects of a decision which went against the club in the Four Courts yesterday will be a slashing of the club's playing budget, which will see the players and the coaching staff being asked to take a significant pay cut.


"We're still dealing with the aftermath of the verdict yesterday but it's likely that we'll have to make cuts across the board and that means in the squad too, we might have to ask the players to examine their contracts and take a pay cut, maybe in the region of 30pc, and any players who re-sign with us will be doing so for less money," a club source said today.

"Everyone has to be realistic, the money that has been in the game for the last 10 years is not there any more and players need to accept that."

Reducing the wage bill is a necessity for Bohs as failure to do so could see them docked points or relegated. Under the Salary Cost Protocol, to which all clubs signed up two years ago, clubs can only spend up to 65pc of their income on players' wages. Bohs managed to stay under that 65pc mark last season because they were able to class money from Carroll through the property deal as income, but that won't be the case next season.

So, unless Bohs get rid of players, ask the remaining players to take a substantial wage cut and only re-sign players with new contracts on considerably less money, they will be in serious trouble.

Yesterday as the Bohs squad were going through the final preparation for tonight's game in Cobh, the rest of the club had their minds pitched on Court No 10 in the Four Courts, where a verdict went against the Gypsies in their battle with property company Albion.

The judge ruled that Bohs do have an issue with Albion over the proposed sale of land at Dalymount and that the matter has to be cleared up between the two parties before Bohs can proceed with the plan to sell Dalymount to developer Liam Carroll and his Danninger company, a deal which was due to see Bohs pocket €40m in cash and also get a new stadium, in Harristown on Dublin's northside, built for them.

No one knows what the next move will be, and in the words of one club source, "it lies in the hands of Liam Carroll now".

Bohs had one victory in the court yesterday when the judge ruled that no contract had been signed between Bohs and Albion for the sale of part of Dalymount -- under that deal, Bohs would sell part of the Tramway End to Albion and in return get a cash payment and also have corporate boxes built for the club by Albion.

But the substantial fact to emerge from the court was that Bohs had promised to sell the land to Albion, that the deal was effectively in place, and that Bohs now have to deal with Albion to sort out how they resolve the situation.

One option for Bohs would be to simply pay off Albion, hand them a cash settlement to finish their interest in the Dalymount site so they can be free from Albion and proceed with the €60m Carroll deal. With €40m in cash on the way -- if the Carroll deal proceeds -- Bohs can afford to lose some of that cash if it means sealing the deal and getting their new home as well as the money.

Another option would be to play hard-ball with Albion, to appeal yesterday's decision, which could result in a lengthy court case which would then have implications for Albion's plans for the overall development of the site at Phibboro Shopping Centre -- a delay would see Albion run very close to the time limit of their planning application for their project.

Or Bohs could just sit tight and see how things pan out, especially in the property market. Bohs have received €2.5m in non-refundable deposits from Carroll since the parties starting working in tandem and that cash has given them some breathing space, another cash injection by Carroll would offer the time to think.

Nervous time to be a footballer, though.

- Aidan Fitzmaurice

SantryRed

I'm absolutely delighted for Bohs:D

podge018

that's the spirit.....

_blank_

The cheek of Bohs fans coming on to MBs and whinging about fans of other clubs sticking the boot in.

Karma lads. It's a real bitch.

podge018

Two wrongs and all that.

Benedict XVI

bohsman wrote: »

Dont know who you support but say the FA forced Liverpool and Everton to merge, Man U and Man C merged, Arsenal and Spurs, Portsmouth and Southampton etc etc would you support these new teams and be delighted that your teams 120 year history has been wiped out.

All the above clubs are playing in popular leagues and turning over millions of pounds each year, there is no need for the leagues they are in to be dramatically restructured

There have been a lot of mergers of English clubs at Conference level and below.

John_C wrote: »

Good point, we should merge Dublin with Offaly and split Kilkenny in two to make the Leinster Hurling Championship more competitive.

In the last few years there have been a lot of mergers of GAA clubs all over the country.

Xavi6 wrote: »

No true fans of a current club would go near a league for of merged teams, and rightly so. These clubs have existed for over a century and loyalties have been passed down from generation to generation. It's got absolutely nothing to do with fearing change or new fans. I would love to see 10,000 fans in Tolka every week, but only if it was for a Shels came and not some farcical club born out of an FAI marketing ploy.

No thanks.

Older fans will be suspicious at first but they will return to see live football (and if the product is decent obviously).

What is a 'true fan' anyway, I don't believe that such a thing exists.

gimmick wrote: »

That is the biggest load of shiiite I have ever seen on this board.Are you seriously saying that this "friend" of yours will only support a winning team? Should everyone stop supporting their team because they may not win silverware this season?

Bloody hell, amazing. Absolutely astonishing rubbish.

This 'friend ' of mine has always had a passing interest in Drogheda. Over the past few years he has started going to games again, as much to introduce his son to the games as much as anything.

If they drop a division and are no longer competitive I am sure the instances of the son nagging his dad to go and see the Drogs will be become less and less

gimmick wrote: »

Hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Utter tripe. When the league is scrapped will you be happy to have no "national" team? Go away, and try and discuss something you actually know about.

I said scrap the league and start over, not scrap it for ever.

bohsman

Benedict XVI wrote: »

All the above clubs are playing in popular leagues and turning over millions of pounds each year, there is no need for the leagues they are in to be dramatically restructured

There have been a lot of mergers of English clubs at Conference level and below.

But some people that dont follow it now might take an interest. Bubble could easily burst in England, especially if Platini gets his way.