Bohs in court

bohsman

Des wrote: »

The cheek of Bohs fans coming on to MBs and whinging about fans of other clubs sticking the boot in.

Karma lads. It's a real bitch.

Im embarrased to say that I posted on Shels and Rovers forums wishing both sets of fans luck after Shels relegation and Rovers 4% group forming. Im not going to take it back either, Ill let you keep your karma.

Pure Cork

Benedict XVI wrote: »

In the last few years there have been a lot of mergers of GAA clubs all over the country.

Fair enough. You still haven't answered my question why GAA league games get sh*t attendances. Have a think about it.

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Older fans will be suspicious at first but they will return to see live football (and if the product is decent obviously).

Suspicious isn't the word. I'd imagine it would put a lot of the older generation off going to games. Which clubs do you envisage merging?

Benedict XVI wrote: »

I said scrap the league and start over, not scrap it for ever.

You still haven't come up with any solutions to the problems.
Money?
Stadia?

Benedict XVI wrote: »

See how it goes, if it fails so what, go back to the old setup.

After it fails, how could it go back to the current setup after all the mergers?

bohsman

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Older fans will be suspicious at first but they will return to see live football (and if the product is decent obviously).

Suspicious isnt the word Id use, there would be riots. I hope whatever club you support goes out of business so that youll think twice about wishing it on 22 clubs you have no interest in.

super_furry

One handy thing for Bohs is the fact that, with Rovers moving to Tallaght, Shelbourne will be looking for a new team to share Tolka with them. While it might take a while for Bohs fans' to adjust, I'm sure they'll get used to eventually.

Nalz

Jaysus alot of smart remarks and nasty comments!

_blank_

Trilla wrote: »

Jaysus alot of smart remarks and nasty comments!

It was the same from some of the Bohs fans when Shels were in trouble.

What goes around, comes around.

Also.

It's funny to see your rivals in trouble.

I really, really hope Bohs don't go out of business, but a few seasons in the First Division would really cop a few of you on, imo.

super_furry

And just how supportive of Rovers and Shels have Bohemians fans been during their troubles? Thomas Davis banners anyone?

Gavin "shels"

super_furry wrote: »

One handy thing for Bohs is the fact that, with Rovers moving to Tallaght, Shelbourne will be looking for a new team to share Tolka with them. While it might take a while for Bohs fans' to adjust, I'm sure they'll get used to eventually.

I doubt it, Rovers were a thorn in our sides, right a extra revenue source but the amount spent on keeping the pitch in top notch condition cost alot with two teams playing on it all season.

LuckyLloyd

Gavin shels wrote: »

I doubt it, Rovers were a thorn in our sides, right a extra revenue source but the amount spent on keeping the pitch in top notch condition cost alot with two teams playing on it all season.

Come on now. Surely that extra revenue charged from Rovers was fixed at a rate which would cover the additional groundskeeping costs accrued from having double the amount of competitive league matches (and then some)?

And if it wasn't then, LOLZ!

_blank_

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Come on now. Surely that extra revenue charged from Rovers was fixed at a rate which would cover the additional groundskeeping costs accrued from having double the amount of competitive league matches (and then some)?

And if it wasn't then, LOLZ!

That's not the issue here.

The issue is keeping the ground in top condition, this is nigh on impossible with games on it every single week of the season.

Actually, our groundsman was nominated for Groundsman of the Year, as it happens.

LuckyLloyd

Des wrote: »

That's not the issue here.

The issue is keeping the ground in top condition, this is nigh on impossible with games on it every single week of the season.

Actually, our groundsman was nominated for Groundsman of the Year, as it happens.

Okey dokey. But surely you weigh up the competing concerns of revenue generation / maintenance difficulty and costs / affect on range of football that can be played and only do it if it benefits you on the whole, right?

_blank_

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Okey dokey. But surely you weigh up the competing concerns of revenue generation / maintenance difficulty and costs / affect on range of football that can be played and only do it if it benefits you on the whole, right?

Yeah, I'm sure the club will miss the Rovers revenue. No doubt about that.

bohsman

super_furry wrote: »

One handy thing for Bohs is the fact that, with Rovers moving to Tallaght, Shelbourne will be looking for a new team to share Tolka with them. While it might take a while for Bohs fans' to adjust, I'm sure they'll get used to eventually.

How do you see this happening? Tolka will be gone before long before Dalymount.

CiaranC

stovelid

bohsman wrote: »

Suspicious isnt the word Id use, there would be riots. I hope whatever club you support goes out of business so that youll think twice about wishing it on 22 clubs you have no interest in.

As much I acknowledge that the league need real management, it beggars belief that any (supposed) football fans would even suggest merging teams. I'd rather Rovers just wound up than get absorbed into some sh*te franchise with one of our rivals. It just highlights the fact that deep down, most people don't consider LOI teams to be 'real'. And that whenever a LOI crisis occurs, the people with all the answers are the ones that wouldn't be caught dead at a game. And never will.

SectionF

stovelid wrote: »

As much I acknowledge that the league need real management, it beggars belief that any (supposed) football fans would even suggest merging teams. I'd rather Rovers just wound up than get absorbed into some sh*te franchise with one of our rivals. It just highlights the fact that deep down, most people don't consider LOI teams to be 'real'. And that whenever a LOI crisis occurs, the people with all the answers are the ones that wouldn't be caught dead at a game. And never will.

As far as I can see, there is just one dingbat making that proposal, and it is getting far too much attention.

I understand your point about being real. But, deep down, the problem for most people is that LoI teams are real, and not just on the telly.

Benedict XVI

stovelid wrote: »

As much I acknowledge that the league need real management, it beggars belief that any (supposed) football fans would even suggest merging teams. I'd rather Rovers just wound up than get absorbed into some sh*te franchise with one of our rivals. It just highlights the fact that deep down, most people don't consider LOI teams to be 'real'. And that whenever a LOI crisis occurs, the people with all the answers are the ones that wouldn't be caught dead at a game. And never will.

Eventhough I have suggested a franchise solution I do not believe it will ever happen.

The FAI would never make such a bold move the and the LOI fans would rather see their clubs die and have no football than move forward.

_blank_

You don't understand football if you want Franchise Football.

djpbarry

Benedict XVI wrote: »

The FAI would never make such a bold move the and the LOI fans would rather see their clubs die and have no football than move forward.

The "franchise" approach will only work in countries that don't have a history of football support, such as the US and Australia. It ain't going to work here, or in any other European nation, I'd imagine. If large scale mergers took place in Ireland, that would be the final death knell for professional football here, as the core support would be lost. You can’t expect fans to just transfer their loyalty from one football club to another.

stovelid

Benedict XVI wrote: »

The FAI would never make such a bold move the and the LOI fans would rather see their clubs die and have no football than move forward.

Any real football fan would not see this as a move 'forward'.

I think the problem here is the obsession with making LOI a good 'product'. The majority of posters here support a handful of very successful, 'multinational' teams, so it's natural to think of fans automatically opting to support 'winners'.

The reality of football support for many people is about camaraderie, local attachment, membership and tradition. These are things that are often exclusive of success on the field or how well your team plays. These people would love their team to one day be huge, but they don't make their support conditional on their team being successful.

All you want is for your national association, league and local fans to play their part in moving you toward that success.

Sadly, in Ireland, all three have conspired to do the opposite.

Benedict XVI

stovelid wrote: »

Any real football fan would not see this as a move 'forward'.

I think the problem here is the obsession with making LOI a good 'product'. The majority of posters here support a handful of very successful, 'multinational' teams, so it's natural to think of fans automatically opting to support 'winners'.
.

But in order to build and develop the league to attract new fans you need a good product.

We all know that there are fans who love their teams no matter what happens, but they are only a small percentage of the public, teams need bums on seats and the only way to do that is to improve the 'product' they are supplying.

djpbarry

Benedict XVI wrote: »

But in order to build and develop the league to attract new fans you need a good product.

We already have a "good product". How will combining Pat's and Rovers (for example) improve the "product"? Same players, same grounds ... more fans?!? It doesn't make sense to me.

stovelid

Benedict XVI wrote: »

But in order to build and develop the league to attract new fans you need a good product. We all know that there are fans who love their teams no matter what happens, but they are only a small percentage of the public, teams need bums on seats and the only way to do that is to improve the 'product' they are supplying.

Horse before the cart. You won't get a good product on the field unless you can get people to come, or at least replace the income they would generate. And as has been said before, I have seen good games of football here, despite the level. And sh*t games of football across the water, despite the level.

I'd love to see more people at games, but the kind of people that are attracted to a 'good product' will show up to Shels and Deportivo and won't come back unless they get a constant diet of success.

Do you think some of the teams in the lower league in England provide good product compared to the premiership? Did Leeds fans stop going because the Leeds product is now devalued?

I take the point that the facilities and management here couldn't be worse, but the elephant in the Irish room is this: the fan that keeps smaller clubs (in no doubt equally shambolic leagues) going all over Europe is uniquely missing in Ireland.

Pure Cork

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Eventhough I have suggested a franchise solution I do not believe it will ever happen.

The FAI would never make such a bold move the and the LOI fans would rather see their clubs die and have no football than move forward as a franchise.

Fixed that for you. All LOI fans want their clubs and the league to move forward.

Pure Cork

Benedict XVI wrote: »

But in order to build and develop the league to attract new fans you need a good product.

We all know that there are fans who love their teams no matter what happens, but they are only a small percentage of the public, teams need bums on seats and the only way to do that is to improve the 'product' they are supplying.

Why do GAA league games get such poor attendances. Where's the money going to come from?

Benedict XVI

Pure Cork wrote: »

Why do GAA league games get such poor attendances. Where's the money going to come from?

I don't have numbers because I do not have the time right now to get them but I would believe that numbers attending the GAA flag ship competitions (All Ireland Hurling and Football championships) is fairly steady and strong.

The attendances and conditions of the FAI's flagship competition (the League of Ireland) is a not as steady or strong.

The money for a new league would come from sponsorship and revenue sharing. All teams would be equal when it comes to salary, revenue and sponsorship e deals.

it may start at a small scale but it would have to be sustainable, you cannot have a situation where the past four champions are or have been in serious financial trouble.

djpbarry

Benedict XVI wrote: »

I don't have numbers because I do not have the time right now to get them but I would believe that numbers attending the GAA flag ship competitions (All Ireland Hurling and Football championships) is fairly steady and strong.

The attendances and conditions of the FAI's flagship competition (the League of Ireland) is a not as steady or strong.

The GAA's flagship competition is doing well, but club games get feck-all people attending them. The FAI's flagship is the national team, which gets pretty strong support, last time I checked.

Benedict XVI wrote: »

The money for a new league would come from sponsorship...

And where's all this sponsorship going to come from?

Benedict XVI wrote: »

it may start at a small scale but it would have to be sustainable...

So why not just work on the current league in an effort to make it sustainable? Why will all the current problems just disappear in your franchise solution?

Benedict XVI wrote: »

...you cannot have a situation where the past four champions are or have been in serious financial trouble.

How many league champions in Europe's other leagues operate on a sound financial basis? The problem is not just with Irish football, it is endemic in football in general. Irish clubs are living beyond their means because they're trying to keep pace with British clubs who are living beyond their means. The only way to change this is for UEFA to force ALL clubs to operate on a sustainable basis.

Benedict XVI

stovelid wrote: »

Horse before the cart. You won't get a good product on the field unless you can get people to come, or at least replace the income they would generate. And as has been said before, I have seen good games of football here, despite the level. And sh*t games of football across the water, despite the level.

I'd love to see more people at games, but the kind of people that are attracted to a 'good product' will show up to Shels and Deportivo and won't come back unless they get a constant diet of success.

Do you think some of the teams in the lower league in England provide good product compared to the premiership? Did Leeds fans stop going because the Leeds product is now devalued?

I take the point that the facilities and management here couldn't be worse, but the elephant in the Irish room is this: the fan that keeps smaller clubs (in no doubt equally shambolic leagues) going all over Europe is uniquely missing in Ireland.

Why should people start supporting teams in a league when the last four champions have gotten into financial trouble?

It has been said before on this thread people will not pledge themselves to a club for life after going to one game, and nor should they.

The way you get people to the games is if you market them correctly, price them correctly and give match goers good facilities, and if the game is good that is a bonus.

I read on another thread that tickets to Galway Utd games were €25, which is way too expensive to get people coming to games on a regular basis.

_blank_

Benedict.

Give us your outline for this new franchised league. Your blueprint.

Who will sponsor it.

Where will the money come from.

Why would people who bemoan the "facilities" go to these facilities with this new franchised league, when they won't go now. The stadia won't change.

Benedict XVI

djpbarry wrote: »

The GAA's flagship competition is doing well, but club games get feck-all people attending them. The FAI's flagship is the national team, which gets pretty strong support, last time I checked.

The Irish team is not the FAI's flagship competition.

The LOI is their flagship competition

stovelid

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Why should people start supporting teams in a league when the last four champions have gotten into financial trouble?

It has been said before on this thread people will not pledge themselves to a club for life after going to one game, and nor should they.

The way you get people to the games is if you market them correctly, price them correctly and give match goers good facilities, and if the game is good that is a bonus.

I read on another thread that tickets to Galway Utd games were €25, which is way too expensive to get people coming to games on a regular basis.

Actually, I can agree with some of this. Tickets are too expensive. The FAI (and clubs) do need to wake up re: overspending. The FAI does need to manage the league professionally.

However, I'll reserve judgment that this would make a difference to the majority of Irish football fans who by-and-large vote for success. And that's not a desire to see the league continue unsupported. No real fan would wish that.

I'm biased, but Rovers will be a good measure of some of the things you say. They're moving to an area of historical SRFC support; have roots in the junior football scene; are tenants in a new UEFA 3-Star stadium; are run on prudent fiscal basis and will be offering sensible ticket packages.

Lets see if that is enough to at least get local fans to turn out to support an English and an Irish club.

Benedict XVI

Des wrote: »

Benedict.

Give us your outline for this new franchised league. Your blueprint.

Who will sponsor it.

Where will the money come from.

Why would people who bemoan the "facilities" go to these facilities with this new franchised league, when they won't go now. The stadia won't change.

Des, you know the answer, you have seen it in the flesh, it begins with an 'A'

_blank_

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Des, you know the answer, you have seen it in the flesh, it begins with an 'A'

Have you seen the A-League stadia?

We have NOTHING like that here.

Who is going to build the new facilities that so many people seems to make as an excuse not to go to LoI games as it is?

Answer that.

Pure Cork

Benedict XVI wrote: »

I don't have numbers because I do not have the time right now to get them but I would believe that numbers attending the GAA flag ship competitions (All Ireland Hurling and Football championships) is fairly steady and strong.

The attendances and conditions of the FAI's flagship competition (the League of Ireland) is a not as steady or strong.

The GAA flagship competition is a knockout competition (within reason). The GAA league attendances are s*** because people aren't interested in going to games every week. They prefer going to a provincial final and making a trip to Croker.

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Why should people start supporting teams in a league when the last four champions have gotten into financial trouble?

It has been said before on this thread people will not pledge themselves to a club for life after going to one game, and nor should they.

The way you get people to the games is if you market them correctly, price them correctly and give match goers good facilities, and if the game is good that is a bonus.

I read on another thread that tickets to Galway Utd games were €25, which is way too expensive to get people coming to games on a regular basis.

Good facilities: Turner's Cross is a much better, and safer, ground than Pairc Ui Squeeze. When there's a GAA Championship match played, there's no problem filling most of the ground. For clubs that need new stadiums, where's the money going to come from? And will they get planning permission?

Tickets at Galway games are €20 for an adult, which is a bit much. Most clubs charge €15 for an adult ticket, which is reasonable in my opinion.

LuckyLloyd

djpbarry wrote: »

If large scale mergers took place in Ireland, that would be the final death knell for professional football here, as the core support would be lost. You can’t expect fans to just transfer their loyalty from one football club to another.

Surely this season has been the final death knell for the idea of a fully professional football league in the Republic of Ireland?

The Franchise idea is silly. Scaling back to semi - pro and a massive tightening of belts is not.

djpbarry

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Why should people start supporting teams in a league when the last four champions have gotten into financial trouble?

Once again, this argument just doesn’t cut it. There are several big clubs around Europe whose finances are in an appalling state. Take Chelsea for example; how long do you think they’d be around without Abramovich?

Benedict XVI wrote: »

The way you get people to the games is if you market them correctly, price them correctly and give match goers good facilities…

Many clubs are making great strides in this area. While there are a lot of poor grounds in the country (Utd Park springs to mind), there are some very nice little grounds too with excellent playing surfaces. Most clubs are doing their utmost to revamp their grounds, but they’re having to fund these developments themselves, for the most part.

Benedict XVI wrote: »

…and if the game is good that is a bonus.

And there’s the problem with your argument. The football is essentially irrelevant, all that matters is how it looks. Give it the Sky Sports treatment and it’ll be grand, eh?

Benedict XVI wrote: »

I read on another thread that tickets to Galway Utd games were €25, which is way too expensive to get people coming to games on a regular basis.

€25 is a bit too much, but I get into Pats’ games for €10, which is pretty reasonable in my opinion. Family tickets are also available at Richmond Pk (and most other grounds); 1 adult and 3 children for €30 – that’s pretty difficult to beat. I don’t think lowering the ticket prices would make much difference to be honest. People are happy enough to pay an arm and a leg to see the national team, GAA matches, rugby, etc.

Benedict XVI wrote: »

The Irish team is not the FAI's flagship competition.

I didn’t say competition, I just said flagship. The national team is the FAI’s main source of revenue in the same way the Championship is the GAA’s main source of revenue. It’s a perfectly valid comparison.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Surely this season has been the final death knell for the idea of a fully professional football league in the Republic of Ireland?

I don’t think so.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Scaling back to semi - pro and a massive tightening of belts is not.

Scaling back is obviously required, but I think we’ll probably have some clubs operating on a semi-pro basis and some clubs with some pros and some semi-pros on their books. Take Cork for example. They’re rumoured to be looking at a salary expenditure of €15k per week for next season – that’s enough to support some full-timers. What has to end is players earning ridiculous amounts of money. If players are demanding €3, 4 & 5k per week, let them feck off to the UK.

SectionF

Even if the whole league were forced to go part-time, that would be preferable to relying solely on British clubs for my football fix. The essence of it is that it is live football, for which there simply is no substitute.

I agree that admission prices may have gone too far, though I think it's overstated. I don't for a second buy the facilities argument or the standard of football argument. In the Jodi Stand, Bohs have a modern, comfortable facility, with full coverage, a brilliant sound system and a great view of a fantastic pitch. It's still mostly empty most of the time.

What is needed is a shift in Irish football culture, and that's not going to happen any time soon, as long as people equate watching television and buying shirts with actually supporting a team.

LuckyLloyd

djpbarry wrote: »

I don’t think so.

Scaling back is obviously required, but I think we’ll probably have some clubs operating on a semi-pro basis and some clubs with some pros and some semi-pros on their books. Take Cork for example. They’re rumoured to be looking at a salary expenditure of €15k per week for next season – that’s enough to support some full-timers. What has to end is players earning ridiculous amounts of money. If players are demanding €3, 4 & 5k per week, let them feck off to the UK.

bohsman

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The problem is clubs going for broke in a bid to break Europe not full time wages, I think Drogheda could have put 2 teams in the Premier last year and have both finish top end of the table, thats not proffesional football at fault its bad budgeting, up till now if everyone else cut back one team would see their opportunity to overspend to win the league, hopefully with the wage cap in place it will stop happening.

djpbarry

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Did you even read the rest of my post?

CiaranC

http://www.bohemians.ie/index.php/club-news/club-to-appeal-court-decision.htm

Once more on the merry-go-round

_blank_

Interesting reading here

http://www.thebohs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9205

it's some of the text of the judgement.

They don’t say that they took any steps to correct the mistaken impression they were giving to members who were not in attendance at meetings or creditors or revenue officials or companies office officials. Finally, they imply that this mis-accounting was deliberate but well-intentioned, to allow the company and thus the club to continue to operate. (The Court would observe that in its view this represents a fair summary of the relevant evidence.)

Here is a comment from a regular on that Bohs MB

Gem wrote:

They deserve to be locked up for this kind of behaviour. I hope all the people who wouldn't shut up when they were presented with the facts at the egm and cried foul with the heckles of 'lies' and 'bullshít' might finally fúcking wake up to how corrupt the whole fúcking thing has been.

Someone else, a Bohs fan, talking about corruption.

And, yes, it would seem that the "members" believed the lies. How they could believe those lies is beyond me.

And this goes back to 2003?

lol, I remember Bohs fans, at games, with their chants about us in 2006.

Your double was won on the back on money you shouldn't have had, simple as that.

Hollow.

podge018

ha ha, raging you are.

_blank_

podge018 wrote: »

ha ha, raging you are.

Are you a Bohs fan?

nice to see you can still laugh while this is happening to your club

SantryRed

I'm whole-heartedly de-fuc**ng-lighted:D

Nalz

SantryRed wrote: »

I'm whole-heartedly de-fuc**ng-lighted:D

good man

_blank_

Trilla wrote: »

good man

Have you no other comment to make?

What about on the text of the judgement?

Your undeserved double?

how do you feel about the trophies your team "won" this season?

Pure Cork

Des wrote: »

Have you no other comment to make?

What about on the text of the judgement?

Your undeserved double?

how do you feel about the trophies your team "won" this season?

How do you feel about the trophies Shels "won"?

_blank_

Pure Cork wrote: »

How do you feel about the trophies Shels "won"?

Exactly as I should.

They were empty victories, yes, I enjoyed them at the time, but now, they weren't worth the paper the contracts were written on.

I got more satisfaction out of being in the mix up on the final day of this season.

Nalz

Des wrote: »

Your undeserved double?

Give the likes of Murphy, Brennan, Crowe or Deegan a call on that one... see what they tell ya