Gangland crime, testing the limits of the Irish Criminal Law?

ch252

Hello all,

Gangland Violence: Testing the Limits of the Criminal Law?

What are your opinions on this matter?

Do you think gangland criminals in Ireland have total disregard for the Irish legal system?

Do you think the Criminal Justice Bill of 2007 is having any effect on crime figures and are the Government doing enough to combat crime and how do you think the Criminal Assets Bureau have affected the lucrativeness of crime, are they making a difference or is the saying "crime doesn't pay" still all lies?


I am still researching the matter as part of an assignment and I am looking into many sources on this but I thought here was a good place to get a broader opinion on the matter, rather than phoning the relevant individuals or emailing them and maybe getting a biased view on it.

Personally, I think we are getting things right now but there is still a lot to do. The use of fire-arms is a quite controversial topic but I think they are making the most of what they have, the setting up of C.A.B. and the National Surveillance Unit.

Regards,

Darragh Kirwan.

old boy

lack of funds is not helping the gardai, and this is going to get worse, now the state will not be able to get involved in what may look like long and expensive trials etc

ch252

Yes, and also, we had a road safety talk in school today, and from talking to the garda in question(a traffic corps officer) he said that due to the cutbacks the doubling of the traffic corps promised may not happen now and they feel they're trying to work with their hands tied behind their backs, it seems we will be stuck with what we have until the economy improves.

gurramok

I think there has been about 130 killings by gangland in the last 10 yrs or so with a less than 20% convcition rate(think it was 17% from memory)

(exact figures were in Indo or Irish Times, should be easy to find using google)

Those lack of conviction numbers speak for themselves. Most of it is down to intimidation of communities so yes, gangland has total disregard for the legal system.

Funny thing is that electronic surveillance has only been recently introduced and yet it has been a part of the law in other EU countries for years.

The economy went through a 10 yr boom in that 10 yrs I highlighted and yet while the funds were there, it made not much difference to the detection rate. The only bright spark was Operation Anvil, but then again the legal system had one hand of the Gardai tied due to liberal bail laws and poor sentencing.

The gardai managed to 'crack' their first gangland killing in years recently(that fella murdered in Killester a few months ago), thats how bad the detection rate has been. Its been a bit better in Limerick than Dublin i must admit.

We are playing catch-up. When I say the Mafia in Italy have a better chance of getting caught, it just shows how serious gangland operations has come to now in Ireland.

EDIT - i was close

127 murdered with just 14 convictions, a 9% detection rate up until Aug31st....Gruesome list and the reasons for your assignment. (think there has been at least another 3 killings since in Dublin)
http://www.tribune.ie/article/2008/aug/31/gangland-killers-getting-away-with-murder/

K4t

In fairness, nobody really cares as long as they're murdering each other. There's always going to be crime and gangs and murders. That's life. And as Ireland expands it's only going to get worse. We just have to hope that it's contained to a certain extent.

When they start murdering witnesses or innocent civilians, then some serious action and debate will happen.

gurramok

Just to compare to Bulgaria.(pop 8m+) http://us.ft.com/ftgateway/superpage.ft?news_id=fto041720081519209385

They've had 120 unsolved gangland killings since 2001. Now some of these have been of political/business figures which make them urgent for society to resolve.

We've had a similar number unsolved but the victims have almost all been allegedly in the drugs/'name that crime' trade.

It just don't look pretty on Ireland's justice system when the likes of the EU put pressure on Eastern European states to sort out their gangland problem or risk being thrown out.
Just god help us if gangland here started targetting the political/business community, they have the firepower and lack of fear getting caught to do it if they wanted to :mad:

pablomakaveli

K4t wrote: »

In fairness, nobody really cares as long as they're murdering each other. There's always going to be crime and gangs and murders. That's life. And as Ireland expands it's only going to get worse. We just have to hope that it's contained to a certain extent.

When they start murdering witnesses or innocent civilians, then some serious action and debate will happen.

I agree with you in a sense but innocent people have been murdered.

Remember that young plumber who was shot a year or two ago. He was working in a house where a gangster was staying and was shot when some rival gang members came to kill the gangster. He was shot just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

These people don't care who they kill and more innocent people will be killed if the government don't take more action.

johnnyskeleton

darragh-k wrote: »

Hello all,

Gangland Violence: Testing the Limits of the Criminal Law?

What are your opinions on this matter?

I don't think gang related violence should have any greater or lesser of a focus than other types of violent crimes. While there are obviously different social concerns behind this type of crime, I certainly don't think that there should be any different law applied for gangs as for other citizens.

darragh-k wrote: »

Do you think gangland criminals in Ireland have total disregard for the Irish legal system?

I don't know, and frankly whether I think they have respect for the legal system or not makes no difference.

darragh-k wrote: »

Do you think the Criminal Justice Bill of 2007 is having any effect on crime figures and are the Government doing enough to combat crime

No, but it's much too early to tell. However, many of the new garda powers are not being used as they are cumbersome and impractical.

darragh-k wrote: »

and how do you think the Criminal Assets Bureau have affected the lucrativeness of crime, are they making a difference or is the saying "crime doesn't pay" still all lies?

It's making a massive difference - even in terms of assets seized and returned to the central fund their work is good, and I would imagine that it has a strong deterrent impact, especially on tax evaders.

darragh-k wrote: »

I am still researching the matter as part of an assignment and I am looking into many sources on this but I thought here was a good place to get a broader opinion on the matter, rather than phoning the relevant individuals or emailing them and maybe getting a biased view on it.

If you are doing an assignment on it, you will need more than opinions from an internet forum.

darragh-k wrote: »

Personally, I think we are getting things right now but there is still a lot to do. The use of fire-arms is a quite controversial topic but I think they are making the most of what they have, the setting up of C.A.B. and the National Surveillance Unit.

There are 4 major public arenas that have an impact on crime, criminal law and the public perception of law:

1) The government
2) The gardai
3) The courts
4) The media.

1) The government - you have referred to the CJA 2007 and I think this is a great example of the current government attitude towards crime. I would argue that to combat crime we need to spend more money, but the government would much rather create a load of new laws that cost very little (directly at least). If the government is questioned on crime, and they are unwilling to give significant funding towards tackling crime, they usually respond with a new act with lots of unusual powers and random offences/sentencing provisions. These don't have any real impact on reality, but it makes the government seem tough on crime. If they really wanted to tackle crime they would give more funding to the gardai & courts (see below) but they would also invest in ways of diverting young people away from crime. Getting young people away from drugs, alcohol, vandalism and loitering and into sports and other activities reduces crime, but costs a lot of money. A witness protection system is also needed.

2) The gardai - there are a number of improvements that could be made to the gardai, graduate recruitment & college training for detectives, increased specialization for serious crime, more gardai (which will actually save money as it could mean less overtime), anti corruption investigations and more involvement with communities.

3) The courts - the DPP has publicly stated that due to cutbacks he will have to reduce the number of prosecutions. Even now the DPP will only prosecute where a conviction is almost certain, so these cuts will mean that a lot of offences will never even reach trial. The gardai need a 24 hour legal advisory service to make sure that the procedures they adopt are correct. Lawyers usually only get involved at a later stage, and by that time it is difficult to correct any problems in the investigation stage. Court presenters should be used more in the district courts so that gardai are not tied up all day for minor road traffic offences. More judges should be appointed to ensure speedy trials (especially in Dublin Circuit Court, where the waiting time for a trial is approx 1 year).

4) The media - unfortunately, there is nothing to be done here. Bad news, fear and anger sell papers so the media will focus a lot on areas where crime detection is poor, sentences are lenient and accused are acquitted. This only serves to undermine the criminal justice system and for the most part gives an unfair view of how the system works. The best example I can give of this is where a man got 8 years (out of a maximum of 10) for a dangerous driving causing death, and this was reported as lenient in the papers. If this really is lenient then what is the appropriate sentenc?

lostexpectation

is that no right ot silence thing in effect now?

we shouldn't beyond the norms of law to battle the gangs.

Nodin

lostexpectation wrote: »

is that no right ot silence thing in effect now?

we shouldn't beyond the norms of law to battle the gangs.

Indeed. Every piece of legislation has the potential to be flagrantly abused. Certainly the Brits have seen some vile uses of 'anti-terror' legislation on people and events never intended to be targeted by it.

johnnyskeleton

lostexpectation wrote: »

is that no right ot silence thing in effect now?

we shouldn't beyond the norms of law to battle the gangs.

Yes, but by and large the gardai are not using it because it is just unworkable (and arguably because most gardai have a conscience).

Darragh29

darragh-k wrote: »

Hello all,

Gangland Violence: Testing the Limits of the Criminal Law?

What are your opinions on this matter?

Do you think gangland criminals in Ireland have total disregard for the Irish legal system?

Do you think the Criminal Justice Bill of 2007 is having any effect on crime figures and are the Government doing enough to combat crime and how do you think the Criminal Assets Bureau have affected the lucrativeness of crime, are they making a difference or is the saying "crime doesn't pay" still all lies?


I am still researching the matter as part of an assignment and I am looking into many sources on this but I thought here was a good place to get a broader opinion on the matter, rather than phoning the relevant individuals or emailing them and maybe getting a biased view on it.

Personally, I think we are getting things right now but there is still a lot to do. The use of fire-arms is a quite controversial topic but I think they are making the most of what they have, the setting up of C.A.B. and the National Surveillance Unit.

Regards,

Darragh Kirwan.

lucrativeness

Is this a new word!?!

Yes, crime does pay I think... Look at what John Gilligan is doing. He knows he is going to lose his assets, so his answer is to run up as much in legal costs by way of endless appeals, so ultimately the state might get his gaff but the value and benefit to the state of getting it is substantially reduced by the cost of him appealing and appealing and appealing, so ultimately, the state could ultimately lose by using CAB based legislation against him.

Liam Byrne

I seem to remember Fianna Fail getting elected based on a "zero tolerance" policy ? Anyone know what happened that ?

Irlbo

Crime and Criminality have reached epidemic levels,and as usual decent working class people are affected,DRUGS DRUGS DRUGS,drugs are the problem and a zero tolerance to them is whats needed,drugs I reckon would be behind 99% of gangland lawlessness and crime,and anyone who deals,associates or uses in my view should be dealt with harshly,drug dealers are societies worst threat and anyone no matter how big or small a player should be given an automatic life sentence with no prospect of release,drug addicts are a plague on hard working decent citizens and should not be viewed as victims,as they are willing participants in the use of drugs and the choas that comes with it,they commit crime on innocent people to fund their shameful habit,spread disease and are a general nuisance,serving no purpose in living,a special prison(spike island!) or camp should be set up to isolate these leeches from decent society and leave them to rot,the cociane addled middle classes that use drugs with impunity which fuels all this madness that destroys working class families should be viewed the same as every lowly herion addict

Mr.Micro

Nothing apart from greed and corruption has ever kept pace with the times in Ireland IMO. Laws were and are not updated to deal with cybercrime, fraud, people trafficking and several other areas. Only a couple of years ago a law on rape had to be rushed through the Dail to fill a massive loophole. I am not even sure if thee are still anomalies there?

The Garda Siochana are still rooted in the past with regard to basic training, ethos,and their whole approach. Ireland seen as a sleepy backwater with little or no crime. This whole attitude has allowed the proliferation of crime gangs who have the money to pay top lawyers who know their way around the archaic and ineffective laws where they exist. The whole approach needs to be changed, properly trained Police, update the Laws and the Dep of Justice to come into the 21st Century.

jmayo

It doesn't matter what powers are given to Gardai, unless it is the shoot to kill policy, then there will be a problem when the legal/justice system hands out such lenient sentences.

Why was the sentence of the man who tried to import military grade weapons (inclduing I believe an RPG7 rocket launcher) into Limerick, is reduced by the court of criminal appeal ?

It doesn't mater if you catch these guys, the courts hand them a 10 year sentence (maybe other concurrent sentences as well) and they are out on early release after 7 odd years.
Whilst they are in jail they are treated with a respect that they have never shown society.
They get to run their business using mobile phones.
FFS why do we have to have a committee or consultation to decide if phone jammers are to be used in our prisions ?

luckyfrank

Easy give the gardai draconion powers for a few years id accept and i think most people would accept that freedoms would have to be impinged

But its not gonna bother me if your doing nothing wrong then you've nothing to worry about

Imprisionment wihtout trial for 'known' ring-leaders would be a start

Riddle101

The problem with gangland crime is simple, The Government don't care. They're happy in their nice little mansions with security around the clock and a ton of money to hide behind, so they don't have to worry about it. The choose to ignore the situtation at hand, they know Ireland is in a state of caos but they'd prefer to look the other way because they're afraid they'll lose money fighting crime.

Tell me something Brian Cowen, how many innocent people will it take to be murdered before you realise what a complete jackass you really are and that Ireland is sitting on the brink of disaster. My only worry is will it be too late by the time the Government realise what a big mistake this will all be

BenjAii

Irlbo wrote: »

Crime and Criminality have reached epidemic levels,and as usual decent working class people are affected,DRUGS DRUGS DRUGS,drugs are the problem and a zero tolerance to them is whats needed,drugs I reckon would be behind 99% of gangland lawlessness and crime,

You are right in identifying the cause of gang crime - its all down to drugs, but I'm not sure more of the same zero tolerance is the answer.

I honestly think criminalisation of drug use has created more problems than its worth.

Its a failure everywhere (drug use just increases) and societies all over the world pay a huge price for this being a criminal economy.

Could decriminalisation really be any worse ?

Drugs are freely available now anyway, anybody that wants them can get them.

if they were legalized we would eliminate the criminal problem overnight & if we hand supply over to government bodies, the tax an be used deal with health/addiction problems.

I think when you weigh up the two alternatives ending prohibition on drugs would be better overall.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Liam Byrne

BenjAii wrote: »

...I'm not sure more of the same zero tolerance is the answer.

"More of the same" ??? It's never been tried in this country!

The Gardai are doing their job alright, but the courts are screwing it up with suspended sentences and the do-gooders are making sure that prison is no longer a punishment, with better food, recreational facilities and conditions than most of us have :mad:

If we followed the American "chain-gang" concept we could get essential cleaning and hedge-trimming, etc done, and if we made half of them work nights we could double the amount of them that the jails could cope with.

Of course, allowing the Gardai to shoot the scum would also be a bonus....

magick

i do think the police are doing their best but really theirs no laws to back them up, or given that usually cime gets a slap on thw wrist here, i read the papers and listen to the radio and its really awful to hear the state we are in. Times like this i wish the guillotine was an option for crime.

Tea drinker

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The Gardai are doing their job alright, but the courts are screwing it up with suspended sentences and the do-gooders are making sure that prison is no longer a punishment, with better food, recreational facilities and conditions than most of us have :mad:

If we followed the American "chain-gang" concept we could get essential cleaning and hedge-trimming, etc done, and if we made half of them work nights we could double the amount of them that the jails could cope with.

Of course, allowing the Gardai to shoot the scum would also be a bonus....

Exactly, the cops are putting them away but the revolving door lets them out again. It's at the stage that the gardai must be wondering what the point is. We need cheap prisons built in the middle of nowhere - not expensive prisons built on valuable land. The cost of keeping inmates, of servicing their needs must be rapidly reduced. We must do it carefully to avoid the wrath of the people haters in the EU who don't belive in punishment. We should outsource the prison service to the lowest bidder - this would distance the gov from any consequences and give plausible deniability, while allowing us to keep more scumbags off the street FOREVER. At least sweeping reform should be done to reduce costs.

You must remember that the law and security services of the state are built to protect us against the majority of offenders - but the likes of the Crime gangs are not mainstream offenders and regular laws and cops can't deal with them. Even the ERU is getting laughed at in Limerick.

BenjAii

Nothing the US has done has reduced drug use, and they have the worlds largest prison population. For every supplier they jail, another one springs up to replace him.

It still doesn't refute the absurdity of having drugs illegal, it makes criminals of the majority of the population too. I would base that assertion on the fact that the majority of people in the 18-40 age group have taken at some point/or do take drugs.

Given the huge cost to society of prohibition in not only the existence of gangs, but all the crime associated with drugs addicts and theft; why can't we be rational and look at this purely from a public health perspective.

I have no truck with people who think taking drugs is "morally wrong", its none of their business what other people want to do, just as its not the governments business to legislate for what adults decide to do with their sexuality.

Legalising drugs would eliminate the crime problem overnight, an absolutely massive plus in its favour.

Then we would be left to consider the huge minus that is public health & problems with addiction.

But given the fact that drugs are already widely available to those that want them and their public health issues are dwarfed by the huge public health costs of alcohol and tobacco, isn't it time we faced up to the least worst option ?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"More of the same" ??? It's never been tried in this country!

The Gardai are doing their job alright, but the courts are screwing it up with suspended sentences and the do-gooders are making sure that prison is no longer a punishment, with better food, recreational facilities and conditions than most of us have :mad:

Tea drinker

BenjAii wrote: »

Nothing the US has done has reduced drug use, and they have the worlds largest prison population. For every supplier they jail, another one springs up to replace him.

They have a large prison population, but they also have race and minority problems which are contributing here. They also have a free and open anything goes society (by and large) and this is perfect market.

Given the huge cost to society of prohibition in not only the existence of gangs, but all the crime associated with drugs addicts and theft; why can't we be rational and look at this purely from a public health perspective.

.
Why can't we be rational and look at this as a pure personal behaviour issue? Don't take drugs and the babies won't suffer.
If people are so far distanced from the consequences of their actions one would have to question their grasp on reality and mental health.

I have no truck with people who think taking drugs is "morally wrong", its none of their business what other people want to do, just as its not the governments business to legislate for what adults decide to do with their sexuality.

Legalising drugs would eliminate the crime problem overnight, an absolutely massive plus in its favour

.
Fine - keep on truckin. the trouble is drugs are addictive, harmful substances, there isn't a gov in the world which wants to allow it's citizens be addicts. No pharma is going to produce this crap for street use, as the problems of "self medicating" would mean that pharma is sued out of business

Then we would be left to consider the huge minus that is public health & problems with addiction.

Wait - you think we should pay more for the health service? we should pay for the indulgence of addicts? I know we do already, but lets not open the floodgates.

BenjAii

.

Tea drinker wrote: »

Why can't we be rational and look at this as a pure personal behaviour issue? Don't take drugs and the babies won't suffer.
If people are so far distanced from the consequences of their actions one would have to question their grasp on reality and mental health.

It's none of your, mine or the governments business to be legislating for peoples personal behaviour. You might want the government to be your Mammy, but I don't.

.

Tea drinker wrote: »

Wait - you think we should pay more for the health service? we should pay for the indulgence of addicts? I know we do already, but lets not open the floodgates.

As pointed out, drugs are pretty much freely available as is, and their health cost is much less compared to drink/tobacco.

In which case give the massive benefit of eliminating gangs & drug related crime, maybe it's time society looked at this from the point of view cost benefit analysis and asked would the increase in health problems be worth the elimination of all the crime.

old boy

when a gang land figure who has 3 armoured beemers sized from him and appears in court, then gets free legal aid its time to give up all togeather

Tea drinker

BenjAii wrote: »

.
It's none of your, mine or the governments business to be legislating for peoples personal behaviour. You might want the government to be your Mammy, but I don't.

What are you talking about? Of course we need to legislate peoples behaviour - it could be my personal choice to do 250km/h... but if I run over someone? (speed limits)
What if I want to listen to the stereo at full blast every night from midnight to 8 am? (asbo / council order)
There are any number of areas where you have to accept that your actions have consequences to others, and we have to legislate to the betterment of the community. Speaking of communities - can you show me one where widespread drug use is having a positive impact on society?

Making it legal to speed and saving money on speed camera's, or removing all "management" of citizens as an excuse to do whatever you PERSONALLY want to do is a poor argument.
We all have whacky ideas - we just don't necessarily have to indulge them.

As pointed out, drugs are pretty much freely available as is, and their health cost is much less compared to drink/tobacco.

In which case give the massive benefit of eliminating gangs & drug related crime, maybe it's time society looked at this from the point of view cost benefit analysis and asked would the increase in health problems be worth the elimination of all the crime

Drugs are a huge problem - it is costing a fortune to combat them. That's why drug users need to face up to the cost - through huge fines.
Why don't the addicts stop doing drugs - save themselves some money and health - and obey the law of the land? If they are incapable of stopping they should go to a centre that deals with these issues.
Maybe a spell working for the Taliban or Colombian drug lords would straighten them a bit?

BenjAii

We have laws to punish people who harm others, thats the whole point of laws.

But it's not the governments business to be our Mammy & Daddy & tell us what we should and shouldn't do in our private lives as if we we were children.

If someone wants to do something potentialy dangerous to themselves like rock climbing or taking drugs, we are free individuals who can make choices about how we live our lives ourselves. As free individuals we shouldn't have to have our private lives legislated for by politicians.

Saying "Drugs are a huge problem - it is costing a fortune to combat them." is exactly my point, decriminalising them would eliminate a huge amount of the cost.

Tea drinker wrote: »

What are you talking about? Of course we need to legislate peoples behaviour - it could be my personal choice to do 250km/h... but if I run over someone? (speed limits)



Drugs are a huge problem - it is costing a fortune to combat them.

FTA69

K4t wrote: »

When they start murdering witnesses or innocent civilians, then some serious action and debate will happen.

They've been at that ages. Do you not remember Donna Cleary, the woman who was killed in her own house when someone riddled her windows with a MAC-10 machine pistol? Or Baiba Shuilte who was shot dead on her own doorstep? or Anthony Campbell who was shot because he happened to be fixing a sink? Two children getting third-degree burns after a car they were sitting in was petrol bombed in Limerick, kids in their early teens getting shot with shotguns in Waterford. Then there was the case of the two cars weaving around a Dublin ring-road shooting each other, houses getting raked by Kalashnikovs in Limerick and the relatively new trend of leaving pipe-bombs all over estates. I'd have a look at the news from time to time, because it is crystal clear that innocent people have been suffering at the hands of these b*stards for quite some time.

In many working-class areas in Ireland people are living in a state of fear, and in a few select areas the rise in gun crime and the prevalence of weapons presents a very real threat to the safety of normal people. It won't be too long until we have a case like Rhys Jones in West Dublin or Limerick. The "yerrah sure they're only killing each other" argument is ignorance in the extreme. It isn't just the guns used by criminals that cause devastation, it is their general carry-on.

They employ estate youths as runners to sell their drugs, kids they'll sell out at the drop of a hat. They turn their houses into shebeens bringing arseholes from other areas into the estate at all hours to buy drugs, anyone complaining will get their windows smashed or their car burnt out. They just create such an overwhelming sense of misery over the majority of decent people in deprived areas.

It all comes down to drugs, a trade which enables these characters to build substantial economic enterprises out of the consumption of an illegal substance. As far as I'm concerned these substances should be legalised. I'm not saying this wouldn't bring a set of problems with it, but it would definitely break the grip of criminals in this country.

Bob Z

When you read about some of these murders they are done in broad daylight so yes they do appear to be turning thiere noses up at Irish Law.

I fear it will take something bad to happen for things to really change