International waters and shipping drugs

IRISH RAIL

In light of thursdays record haul something popped into my mind

the navy boarded the vessel 200 miles off the coast then escorted the yacht in to cork.
what right have they to board a vessel in international waters ?
and what if they werent going to ireland say they were on there way to norway which is what they could say and theres no way to prove otherwise.
do the government have any business meddeling in this?
fair enough if it was within 12 miles but surely irish law doesnt cover that far out, and do they have a defence of out of juristiction ?

Hogzy

200miles off the coast is actually Irish waters. believe it or not our waters are huge and were extended.
We have one of the largest territorial waters in the world
Read this:
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2007/04/07/story305438.asp

rondeco

Also, the maximum sentence these guys can get is 7 years...

Our man in Havana

Where do the 3 mile and 12 mile limits come into effect?

johnnyskeleton

rondeco wrote: »

Also, the maximum sentence these guys can get is 7 years...

How is that?

pirelli

There was a case only very recently in the irish courts. Whereby the irish navy stopped a private sail boat and entered the boat without permission and were heavy handed with the owner.

It was determined that the navy had acted unlawfully as they were outside the 12 mile nautical limit and therefore had nor right to enter the boat owners boat.

So the limit is 12 mile or thereabouts. International law might be different and allow a boat to be escorted to a particular country and then searched.I know that new laws were being created to allow british navy ships to aprrehend pirates.
Perhaps this is a result of that development.

Our man in Havana

So the limit is 12 mile or thereabouts. International law might be different and allow a boat to be escorted to a particular country and then searched.I know that new laws were being created to allow british navy ships to aprrehend pirates.
Perhaps this is a result of that development.

So these lads could have told the Navy to piss off as they were outside the 12 mile limit?

1966

Just wondering what happens the drugs that they caught. how long are they kept after testing and are they incinerated or what ???

Tom Young

1966 wrote: »

Just wondering what happens the drugs that they caught. how long are they kept after testing and are they incinerated or what ???

Eh, we are having a financial crisis, they are selling them on don't you know!

Victor

At sea, the flag government* could give in this case the Irish government permission to board the boat. AFAIK, if there is no flag, any government can board the boat and I think there is a presumption of piracy** in such cases.

The 200NM*** limit is the economic exclusion zone only, not territorial waters. Irelands territorial waters are 12NM based on an extended baseline (that is outside minor islands).

* The country where the boat is registered.
** The state of being a pirate, as opposed to any actual acts of piracy.
*** 1NM = 2000 yards = 1809 metres

IRISH RAIL

Then going by that victor it was an illegal boarding as the boat was deregistered and they knew they were smugglers as opposed pirates the dea was tracking them
it wasnt a luck search but a pre meditated one and not for piracy.
wonder would that stand up?

Victor

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Then going by that victor it was an illegal boarding as the boat was deregistered and they knew they were smugglers as opposed pirates the dea was tracking them
it wasnt a luck search but a pre meditated one and not for piracy.
wonder would that stand up?

They were flying the Red Ensign - the civil version of the Union Jack.

IRISH RAIL

So I assume the custums in ireland will have to show that they recieved permission in court when the hoodlums are being tried?

Bogger77

Victor wrote: »

They were flying the Red Ensign - the civil version of the Union Jack.

Had the boat not re-registered as British flagged boat, hence it was non flag at the time, ie presumed pirate.

pirelli

The ship was tracked using satellite. The high seas act does allow a ship to be arrested if followed/chased uninterrupted by either aeroplane or ship but has a strict criteria and and you must make some form of contact with the ship.

This ship might have been OFF radio and actively avoiding contact with customs Navy etc.. Then was tracked using satellite and arrested conveniently in the 200 mile economic zone.

Perhaps satellite tracking might also be a valid means of chasing/following a ship in order to arrest it. I mean how can a aeroplane arrest a ship, it can't physically arrest it, (apart from certain types of aircraft) anymore than a sateliite can, therefore it was arrested via satellite it seems.

Page 1


Convention on the High Seas 1958

(a)
That the ship is engaged in piracy; or

2. In the cases provided for in subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c) above, the warship may proceed to verify the
ship’s right to fly its flag. To this end, it may send a boat under the command of an officer to the suspected ship.
Page 7
7
If suspicion remains after the documents have been checked, it may proceed to a further examination on board
the ship, which must be carried out with all possible consideration.
3. If the suspicions prove to be unfounded, and provided that the ship boarded has not committed any act
justifying them, it shall be compensated for any loss or damage that may have been sustained

Johnny Utah

pirelli wrote: »

There was a case only very recently in the irish courts. Whereby the irish navy stopped a private sail boat and entered the boat without permission and were heavy handed with the owner.

It was determined that the navy had acted unlawfully as they were outside the 12 mile nautical limit and therefore had nor right to enter the boat owners boat.

So the limit is 12 mile or thereabouts. International law might be different and allow a boat to be escorted to a particular country and then searched.I know that new laws were being created to allow british navy ships to aprrehend pirates.
Perhaps this is a result of that development.

Like this fella here?

pirelli wrote: »

The ship was tracked using satellite. The high seas act does allow a ship to be arrested if followed/chased uninterrupted by either aeroplane or ship but has a strict criteria and and you must make some form of contact with the ship.

This ship might have been OFF radio and actively avoiding contact with customs Navy etc.. Then was tracked using satellite and arrested conveniently in the 200 mile economic zone.

Perhaps satellite tracking might also be a valid means of chasing/following a ship in order to arrest it. I mean how can a aeroplane arrest a ship, it can't physically arrest it, (apart from certain types of aircraft) anymore than a sateliite can, therefore it was arrested via satellite it seems.

Easy, just lift it up with a really big helicopter. Haven't you seen swordfish?

IRISH RAIL

so it flew the red ensign ok
the us government were tracking them ok
the us government knew what they were doing
the irish government knew what they were doing

but drug running is not piracy
the ship did not commit an act of piracy
both governments knew that but still went outside the zone to intercept the craft so not having a valid reason to search the ship would that not predujice the case ?

and also the offence would be conspiracy to smuggle in to the state
can they prove they were coming to the state ? they could say we were on our way to russia and this feckin irish ejit arrives in international waters boards us in bad weather and makes us go to his country

now maybe im missing some super legislation here but isnt that kidnapping ?

Victor

Who's to say they didn't have permission form the British govenment to board. While strictly speaking they would be committing an offence of possession in Britain, the British and Irish governments have laws allowing the prosecution of offences that occured in the other jurisdiction.

Our man in Havana

The ship was deregistered so flying the Red Ensign meant nothing.

Vote09ireland

The ship was in international waters and, according to the wikipedia page on the issue(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Seabight) were about to colapse, so the irish navy boarded
Dances with waves was until recently (july) registered in britain but de registered so officially wasn't registered anywhere

Because they weren't in Irish waters they were charged with possession of cocaine knowing the drug was to be imported into a country other than Ireland. Which is an act with extra terrestrial effect. and only carries 7 years max


Aiden Kelly
Irish organiser (and legal eagle)
Voter Registration Campaign for European Elections 09 Ireland

Victor

Bond-007 wrote: »

The ship was deregistered so flying the Red Ensign meant nothing.

I don't think it meant "nothing" - it would give UK officials the perfect right to board.

If a vessel isn't flying any national flag, any state could board it.

IRISH RAIL

mmm this has turned interesting
so they will only get 7 years for 700 million (roughly) of coke
if you charge them with trying to smuggle to ireland or britan you still have to prove they were going to britain
sounds to me like they went in too soon ( i know the weater was bad and the ship was in danger)

Vote09ireland

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

mmm this has turned interesting
so they will only get 7 years for 700 million (roughly) of coke
if you charge them with trying to smuggle to ireland or britan you still have to prove they were going to britain
sounds to me like they went in too soon ( i know the weater was bad and the ship was in danger)

They are being charged with importing into a country other than Ireland so all they have to prove is that it wasn't going to ireland

If they had waited, worse case senario, the ship would have colapsed, dumping its cargo and spreading the people and the drugs across the channel, wind dependant

If you think in a more positive light, although i see your point, 700 million euro worth of coke has been captured and is another scalp in Europe on the drug traffickers

And as this is the second big haul in roughly a year it will show trafficker that they will get captured which is a far better return

As this was an international operation if they had gone further france or england would have taken them it was bad weather that meant irish navy had to capture them.

IRISH RAIL

OH GOD yea get it off the streets and well done to all involved
it could have been a lot worse if i was running drugs worth that much id have a few countermeasures onboard.
I just tought like most people that once you were out in international waters you were immune from prosecution.

Vote09ireland

Theoretically that's thrue but allot of extra judicial rules have been created to deal with pedophiles, drugs and the biggy WAR on Terrorism