Johnny O'Connor at Number 7

eeno

Why isnt johnny o connor in the irish Squad? Does he not deserve a spot? opinions please

anonymous_joe

I've asked the same question myself...

He's a very good player, but so are lads like Jennings.

He either needs to take Connact into the HC, or move before he gets selected for Ireland I'd reckon.

Sundy

I dont think he offers the same ball carrying abilities as the other 7's available right now. Also the factt hat he doesnt player anywhere else other than 7 doesnt help his cause either. Heaslip is the only selected back row who currently cant play in 2 back row positions.

murphym7

Too much competition. There is a pile of backrowers to choose from. Just bad timing.

[Jackass]

When you look at a back row of Wallace, Quinlan & Heaslip (probably our strongest...imo anyway) then you've got guys like Ferris, Best, Jennings, Leamy and even players coming through like Ryan, O'Brien, Ronan...even through the years and only recently retired there's been the likes of Foley, Easterby & Gleeson - it has always been an extremely competetive area of our squad. Arguably the area we have had the most depth in consistantly for a long time.

A second string back row from Jennings, Best, Ferris & Leamy is a very good one with a good option on the bench. The first string is top class.

O'Connor is a good player, but with the amount of options in the back row it doesn't surprise me that he's not in there.

Zzippy

Don't agree that he doesn't carry enough ball, he makes a lot of yards with ball in hand and has set up many attacking moves this season for Connacht. That said, he's not in the squad because he's had his chance before and not been able to keep his place. He also gives away too many penalties

redroar1942

A genuine out and out 7 though. not finished yet imo.

RugbyFanatic

Simply put we are spoilt for backrow and as Jackass said Wallace,Jennings,Heaslip,Ferris,Quinlan,Best,Jennings and Leamy are all better than him

Amz

Thread title changed to reflect the OP's question.

tommmy1979

AFAIK.. he got injured badly while playing with Wasps and never came back to his peak again.. i thiink it was a head or neck injury, correct me if i'm wrong.

T

EdgarAllenPoo

It was a spinal cord concussion or bruise on the spinal cord.

twinytwo

if u look at the choice of players we have at the back row and with the way wallace has been playing this year johnny hasnt a hope... did anyone else here them saying that jennings and ferris should start over wallace and Quinlan... i think that when comes to head to heads wallace is the best option to keep richie under control in the ab cgame

anonymous_joe

twinytwo wrote: »

if u look at the choice of players we have at the back row and with the way wallace has been playing this year johnny hasnt a hope... did anyone else here them saying that jennings and ferris should start over wallace and Quinlan... i think that when comes to head to heads wallace is the best option to keep richie under control in the ab cgame

A lot of people are saying Jennings at 7 and Wallace at 6.

redroar1942

anonymous_joe wrote: »

A lot of people are saying Jennings at 7 and Wallace at 6.

People who actually watch rugby?

Real FM

Whilst O'Connors form has gone up and down in the past he seems to be playing fairly consistantly now. He's an excellent player and a really terrier around the rucks.

Quite simply theres just too much out there - The fact that Jennings is 27/28 and has only 4 caps for Ireland summarises the whole situation really.

Diom

Jennings was anonymous against Canada. I don't rate him at all.

O'Connor is a better player than him, but people are right when they say that he gives away too many penalties. Not something that is easily forgiven.

EdgarAllenPoo

Yeah I wasn't really blown away by either Jennings or Ferris. I'd go with a backrow of Quinlan at 6, Wallace at 7 (though I think he'd be better at 8) and Heaslip at 8. While we do have a big pool of backrow players we still don't have a lot to pick at 7.

MikeHoncho

GDM wrote: »

Yeah I wasn't really blown away by either Jennings or Ferris. I'd go with a backrow of Quinlan at 6, Wallace at 7 (though I think he'd be better at 8) and Heaslip at 8. While we do have a big pool of backrow players we still don't have a lot to pick at 7.

Werent blown away by Ferris????

He was immense. Literally on every ball carriers shoulder driving them forward.

Crash

Aye Ferris had a beaut. As much as I like having Quinny and Wallace in the backrow, my main worry is that against the AB's they could just be that tiny bit too slow, so while they'll be in a position to slow down a lot of ball, we'll see very little turnover. Which is why i'd almost go for the same backrow as the Canadian match, with Wally on the bench to come on if things start to go dire.

Amazotheamazing

Thought Ferris was very good, but the future of the Irish 7 shirt will be Pollock, Jennings simply isn't up to it. In fact I could see him losing out to O'Brien for Leinster in a relatively short period of time.

Robbo

Diom wrote: »

Jennings was anonymous against Canada. I don't rate him at all.

O'Connor is a better player than him, but people are right when they say that he gives away too many penalties. Not something that is easily forgiven.

He's a lot more disciplined these days and you could say that any indiscipline our backrow is much more likely to come from Muldoon-y or Rigney-y than O'Connor-y.

TarfHead

GDM wrote: »

Yeah I wasn't really blown away by either Jennings or Ferris. I'd go with a backrow of Quinlan at 6, Wallace at 7 (though I think he'd be better at 8) and Heaslip at 8. While we do have a big pool of backrow players we still don't have a lot to pick at 7.

A lot of people are saying .. .. well, some talking head I heard on the radio, possibly Jim Glennon, question does Quinlan still have 80 minutes in him at this level ? Against the ABs, the #6 is going to have to get into mid-teens in tackles. That's a lot of attrition on a 34yo with a history of shoulder trouble.

Amazotheamazing

TarfHead wrote: »

A lot of people are saying .. .. well, some talking head I heard on the radio, possibly Jim Glennon, question does Quinlan still have 80 minutes in him at this level ? Against the ABs, the #6 is going to have to get into mid-teens in tackles. That's a lot of attrition on a 34yo with a history of shoulder trouble.

Ferris has had his fair share of injuries too though, and with Best cited and Leamy still lacking match fitness, we're not really blessed with huge dept of any real quality at the minute. Ryan could cover there but I think NZ would make bits of a non-specialist 6.

When Leamy fully fit, I wonder will we see him and Ferris rotating between 6 and 8? Heaslip is nowhere near as physical as either whereas I think Leamy and Ferris are almost SA type backrowers, the type you'd think Smal would be looking for.

Diom

Robbo wrote: »

He's a lot more disciplined these days and you could say that any indiscipline our backrow is much more likely to come from Muldoon-y or Rigney-y than O'Connor-y.

I agree, he is more disciplined, but still gets pinged quite a bit, maybe due to reputation. I think that O'Connor can break back into the Irish side. It'll be interesting to see him against the Ulster boys at the end of the month.

twinytwo

anonymous_joe wrote: »

A lot of people are saying Jennings at 7 and Wallace at 6.

Has to be wallace at 7 or 8.. i think you would waste the best back row man we have by putting him at 6 and with the form he is on at the min id say his spot his safe for the ab game... ferris played well though. Also i think kearney has to play FB instead of earls as in they should swop positions.. Earls spends too much time in the line for my liking and i mean carter could wreak havoc and kearney has proven himself at this stage to be our top fullback for a reason.

Amazotheamazing

twinytwo wrote: »

Earls spends too much time in the line for my liking and i mean carter could wreak havoc and kearney has proven himself at this stage to be our top fullback for a reason.

Kearney is definately a better fullback than Earls, but is Earls a better centre than Fitz? He looks the part there imo.

zAbbo

We're spoiled for choice right now, and Fitz v Earls is a good dilemma to have.

I wouldn't have any problem seeing Fitz/Earls/Kearney line up at wing, similarly Kearney or Dempsey at full back.

Amazotheamazing

zAbbo wrote: »

We're spoiled for choice right now, and Fitz v Earls is a good dilemma to have.

I wouldn't have any problem seeing Fitz/Earls/Kearney line up at wing, similarly Kearney or Dempsey at full back.

Do you mean Fitz and Earls on either wing, or are both fighting for one spot? Harsh on Bowe, unless you switch him to 13?

Does Bowe have the pace to be an Int wing at the highest level though, it seems Earls and Fitz are a bit faster, and neither are out-and-out speedsters.

[Jackass]

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

When Leamy fully fit, I wonder will we see him and Ferris rotating between 6 and 8? Heaslip is nowhere near as physical as either whereas I think Leamy and Ferris are almost SA type backrowers, the type you'd think Smal would be looking for.

Leamy wouldn't get into the Irish team ahead of Heaslip at 8. Heaslip is hands down the better 8 for the role that's required. And Wallace & Heaslip is a better combination to have on the pitch than Leamy Wallace.

I think Leamy's contender for the backrow is more with Jennings. Heaslip has the 8 fairly nailed down. He's the quickest, most mobile, and is up there with the best ball carrying back rows we have (if not the best) and is powerfull too. Have you seen the speed of this guy? His handling and football skills are superb also.

With Quinlan gone the 7 jersey is between Best, Jennings & Leamy imo and I think Best is the better option out of the 3. Ferris isn't a 7 but could play 6 with Wallace at 7? (excuse the ignorance, I'm not sure if Wallace plays 7).

OFF TOPIC: A lot of Ulster players coming through. Forgot about Pollock, and then there's Ferris and Best, also Caldwell, O'Connor & Cave...some really good players there along with Rory Best, Trimble and Bowe. It's a shame they lost N.Best and Bowe, they really have a good team coming through with some quality foregin players too. Amazed they're not doing better this season. If they can hold on to their players and develop the young guys I've no doubt they'll be back to their old competetivness in a season or 2. Sorry just thought I'd mention that.

zAbbo

Earls v Fitz for the number 11 jersey, Bowe has been the standout winger over the last 18 months.

Still, 2 wingers from Earls/Horgan/Bowe/Fitz/Kearney is healthy

Stev_o

The problem is that on form we have some of the best 6's around Wallace (He is not a 7 people get it out of your heads) Ferris, Best and a on form Leamy. Heaslip only has to content with Roger Wilson and the Irish Management seem to be ignoring him anyway. So its very tempting to have a combo of two 6's and a 8 in the backrow like we used to have (Easterby, Leamy, Wallace) BUT the breakdown has become more crucial then ever before and EVERY top tier team has a in and out 7 playing for them (Or a human wrecking ball in the form of Schalk Burger same difference really). So we need to find a proper 7 and not a 6. Jennings has been nowhere near his form in Leicester, Pollock has only broken through, Nial Ronan cant break in and JOC is being ignored.

Amazotheamazing

[Jackass] wrote: »

Leamy wouldn't get into the Irish team ahead of Heaslip at 8. Heaslip is hands down the better 8 for the role that's required. And Wallace & Heaslip is a better combination to have on the pitch than Leamy Wallace.

I think Leamy's contender for the backrow is more with Jennings. Heaslip has the 8 fairly nailed down. He's the quickest, most mobile, and is up there with the best ball carrying back rows we have (if not the best) and is powerfull too. Have you seen the speed of this guy? His handling and football skills are superb also.

With Quinlan gone the 7 jersey is between Best, Jennings & Leamy imo and I think Best is the better option out of the 3. Ferris isn't a 7 but could play 6 with Wallace at 7? (excuse the ignorance, I'm not sure if Wallace plays 7).

OFF TOPIC: A lot of Ulster players coming through. Forgot about Pollock, and then there's Ferris and Best, also Caldwell, O'Connor & Cave...some really good players there along with Rory Best, Trimble and Bowe. It's a shame they lost N.Best and Bowe, they really have a good team coming through with some quality foregin players too. Amazed they're not doing better this season. If they can hold on to their players and develop the young guys I've no doubt they'll be back to their old competetivness in a season or 2. Sorry just thought I'd mention that.

Heaslip has the skills but he doesn't have the physicality needed imo. Go back and watch the Gloucester, Saracens and Toulouse game from last years HEC, Leamy (playing at 8) was incredible, even carrying an injury. He is such a powerful, destructive player. Will be interesting to see where McGahan uses him, especially with the improvement in the forwards handling. He's not fast enough for 7 though, so not sure why you think he's in competition with Jennings?

It is great to see the talent in Ulster, but they've been strong underage for ages, they don't have much luck in bringing players through to senior though.

Serenity Now!

Zzippy wrote: »

He also gives away too many penalties

He's a breakaway. They tend to give away penalties as their main remit is to snaffle opposition ball.

I like Johnny O'Connor's way of playing. He's a ballsy bugger. Tackles like a lunatic. Some people (who obviously have a preconceived and incorrect opinion on the matter) say he's too small which of course is absolute tosh.
For once, Ireland have a choice of number 7s to choose from.

He's just unlucky. Plus his inability to play anywhere else in the back row would have worked against him.

Sparky14

Its Wallace that causes all these problems with the selection of the backrow, he doesn't fit perfectly in to any position. I've always thought he would make a perfect impact sub, capable of covering all positions in the backrow and the kind of dynamic player that can make a difference coming off the bench. The problem is tho that hes just to good to leave out, but he definitely does unbalance the backrow.

At the moment the only backrow whos position is safe is Heaslip, unless Wallace is moved to 8. Don't like Leamy at 8, not intelligent enough with ball in hand, imo.

anonymous_joe

redroar1942 wrote: »

People who actually watch rugby?

Nah, they don't. They've actually no familiarity at all with the sport. :P

But let's not ignore the fact that Wallace is better in the loose than he is at foraging for the ball.

twinytwo wrote: »

Has to be wallace at 7 or 8.. i think you would waste the best back row man we have by putting him at 6 and with the form he is on at the min id say his spot his safe for the ab game... ferris played well though. Also i think kearney has to play FB instead of earls as in they should swop positions.. Earls spends too much time in the line for my liking and i mean carter could wreak havoc and kearney has proven himself at this stage to be our top fullback for a reason.

Jennings is better at scrabbling for the ball than Wallace, and for that reason I'd rather have him at 7, and let Wallace play at 6.

Sangre

This is really one of those debates where any number of backrow combinations could be reasonably argued for.

anonymous_joe

Yup. And we're all going to have various biases. Usually based on who you support.

Crash

Aye, I mean I honestly don't expect to turn around when the team is announced and say "thats a **** backrow."


Unless Simon Easterby's called back that is.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Yup. And we're all going to have various biases. Usually based on who you support.

Depends on the game you want Ireland to play, I think we need aggressive backrowers like Ferris and Leamy because we'll never out-skill a top team. Guys like Heaslip and Jennings are luxuries we can't afford imo. Sure they have the skills, but they don't bring enough grunt. We'll never see Ireland run the ball like NZ, but we might be able to bash it like SA.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Depends on the game you want Ireland to play, I think we need aggressive backrowers like Ferris and Leamy because we'll never out-skill a top team. Guys like Heaslip and Jennings are luxuries we can't afford imo. Sure they have the skills, but they don't bring enough grunt. We'll never see Ireland run the ball like NZ, but we might be able to bash it like SA.

Jennings is fookin amazing at fighting for the ball when he's on his games. On form he's a guy you rely on, not a luxury. If I was to call anyone a 'luxury' in our backrow it'd be Wallace, and that says how stupid it is to call anyone a luxury player. Wallace is still bloody brilliant, and most teams would kill to have a lad like him. I think Heaslip's far and away the most talented number 8 in Ireland, and I would imagine the Leinster 7/8 axis or a Munster 7/8 axis would be decent. It really is near impossible to seperate them. Personally, I'd want Jennings and Heaslip, but hten I'm a Leinster fan, I've seen all the games, been at most of the home matches, so I'm obviously biased.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Jennings is fookin amazing at fighting for the ball when he's on his games. On form he's a guy you rely on, not a luxury. If I was to call anyone a 'luxury' in our backrow it'd be Wallace, and that says how stupid it is to call anyone a luxury player. Wallace is still bloody brilliant, and most teams would kill to have a lad like him. I think Heaslip's far and away the most talented number 8 in Ireland, and I would imagine the Leinster 7/8 axis or a Munster 7/8 axis would be decent. It really is near impossible to seperate them. Personally, I'd want Jennings and Heaslip, but hten I'm a Leinster fan, I've seen all the games, been at most of the home matches, so I'm obviously biased.

But look at the way Leinster play compared to how Munster or Ulster play, don't think we've the players to play the "Leinster" game at Int level, indeed, Leinster barely have the players to play the "Leinster" way at top HEC level. That's not a cut at Leinster, ideally we would be able to play a high tempo offloading game but last year Leinster tempered that style to win the ML, whereas Munster are moving towards it. I'm not sure Jennings will ever be a top player, whereas I just think Heaslip isn't the type of 8 we need. Like I said, we could potentially replicate the "brutal" game SA have, I don't think we could play like NZ.

Ireland have to play the rugby that suits the players we have, something EOS forgot, imo.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

But look at the way Leinster play compared to how Munster or Ulster play, don't think we've the players to play the "Leinster" game at Int level, indeed, Leinster barely have the players to play the "Leinster" way at top HEC level. That's not a cut at Leinster, ideally we would be able to play a high tempo offloading game but last year Leinster tempered that style to win the ML, whereas Munster are moving towards it. I'm not sure Jennings will ever be a top player, whereas I just think Heaslip isn't the type of 8 we need. Like I said, we could potentially replicate the "brutal" game SA have, I don't think we could play like NZ.

Ireland have to play the rugby that suits the players we have, something EOS forgot, imo.

I'm not sure I agree.

Having watched a limited SA bash up against Wales and only take a win thanks to an intercept try, I'd be wary of going down that route of rugby.

I think right now, looking at the Ireland side as a whole, our only weak spots at the moment would be props and outhalves.

In terms of the backrow, looking at how he played at Leicester, Jennings is good enough to play the best in the world, he's shown that for Leinster a few times as well. Some of the Munster players are a bit older, but still staggeringly talented. They're going up against Richie McCaw, and any backrow featuring him is the best in teh world. Right now, I think New Zealand are slight favourites, and he'd be the reason for that.

Kidney has a great chance to beat NZ. I don't expect him to, but I don't expect a loss either. I think it's very tight, if only because the full NZ team won't ever be seen. What I'd want to see is a good team performance, and a win would be one hell of a bonus.

Dave Joyce

What I'd want to see is a good team performance, and a win would be one hell of a bonus.

+1

I think we need aggressive backrowers like Ferris and Leamy

Thats why I wouldn't dismiss the likes of Heaslip, Wallace and Johnny O'Concreate as been a very good combination and definately aggressive:D.

il gatto

O'Connor is a real groundhog 7, snaffling ball he has no right to be near. When he made a comeback from injury, he made a few ireland caps, but despite getting some praise in the media, he didn't nail down a spot. Playing for Wasps wouldn't have helped his international career so he came home, only to find playing for Connacht doesn't help your international career either.:( I don't know if I'd drop Wallace for him, maybe Jennings, but O'Connor isn't within an asses roar of the 22 so it doesn't really matter I suppose.

twinytwo

jennings dosent have that much international experience and macaw knows everytrick in the book ... does one not think that it is safer to go with a backrow that can withstand the pressure that we all no the all blacks will apply... me things it should be... 6 ferris 7 wallace 8 heaslip 11 earls 12 fitz 13 drico 14 horgan 15 kearney. Im also hoping that drico shows some sort of decent form against the AB's.. against canada when he knocked it on and fly hacked it up the pitch which was grand but then he got roasted by the wings.. still though im hoping for the win i mean if the teams plays like we know they can then it should be a good match.

d-gal

I think o'connor is a better over all 7 than jennings. I have watched both of them for years and on average stats o'connor makes more tackles and spoils more rucks, also a much better carrier, savage strength for a 'small man'
It is a pity he is still playing for connacht as the Irish management over look them quite a bit as they are not playing in the HC. Thought O'Connor would have got more notice when he made bits of Leinsters backrow and made O'Brien (the newest talent of backrow) look like a child way out of his depth.

Overall though it is great for Ireland