Irish squad for AB game

anonymous_joe

Heroditas wrote: »

Aaaaarghh! The grossest of gross assumptions made by myself! Assumed that it was Geordan Murphy who was being discussed.

Nope.

People forget Johne Murphy too easily.

Noopti

anonymous_joe wrote: »

NEW ZEALAND (v Ireland): M Muliaina; J Rokocoko, C Smith, M Nonu, S Sivivatu; D Carter, J Cowan; T Woodcock, K Mealamu, N Tialata, B Thorn, A Williams, J Kaino, R McCaw (Capt), R So'oialo. Replacements: C Flynn, J Afoa, A Boric, K Read, P Weepu, S Donald, I Toweava.

I'm slightly scared, but I do think we've a fighting chance against this team.

No surprises there. We all new Henry would name a full strength side for this clash. Doesn't make it any less daunting of a prospect though! C'MON IRELAND!!!

redroar1942

What is it they say about assumption it makes an Ass of U and Me .

Personally I dont think Johne Murphy is good enough . I think Tom Varndell was top trie scorer the past three seasons and he's not international standard either.

The GP is over rated imo and just because Sky overhype players like Casey,O Connor and both Murphy's does'nt make them any better

EdgarAllenPoo

Paddy Wallace really has no place even on the bench, unless he's played at 12 but even then his inclusion is odd unless we're stuck for replacements.

Junior

redroar1942 wrote: »

What is it they say about assumption it makes an Ass of U and Me .

Personally I dont think Johne Murphy is good enough . I think Tom Varndell was top trie scorer the past three seasons and he's not international standard either.

The GP is over rated imo and just because Sky overhype players like Casey,O Connor and both Murphy's does'nt make them any better

No the saying is "never assume anything, it only makes an ass of u and me"

And your right on the GP the more I watch it, the less interested in English Rugby I become.

ALH-06

GDM wrote: »

Paddy Wallace really has no place even on the bench, unless he's played at 12 but even then his inclusion is odd unless we're stuck for replacements.

Have you seen him play at all this season by any chance? Paddy Wallace is definitely one of the best 12s we have at the moment. Added to that, he can cover 10, which isn't preferred obviously but no-one else is exactly putting their hands up at the moment. Sexton and O'Connor are up and down, Keatley lacks experience etc.

So his inclusion is both merited and expected.

accensi0n

Hopefully O'Gara's kicking out of hand is spot on throughout the match.

RtD

Just wondering who the cover is for second row? Will Quinlan have to move up if need be or can Buckley/Ferris also play there?

Noopti

Quinlan could move to 2nd row and Ferris into backrow. Ferris can also slot into 2nd row if I'm not mistaken.....

Edit: Buckley? Imagine the lads trying to lift him!!! lol

Jello

Yeah I'm disappointed Horgan isn't in the 22, again he's a big match player and thought he made quite an impression when he came on last weekend.

Definitely wouldn't have started TOL... especially not against the All Blacks of all teams. I still haven't been convinced by this fella so he better perform.

Should be some match though, can't wait


Also Buckley in the second row? Heh.

EdgarAllenPoo

ALH-06 wrote: »

Have you seen him play at all this season by any chance? Paddy Wallace is definitely one of the best 12s we have at the moment. Added to that, he can cover 10, which isn't preferred obviously but no-one else is exactly putting their hands up at the moment. Sexton and O'Connor are up and down, Keatley lacks experience etc.

So his inclusion is both merited and expected.

I said he shouldn't be included, unless he's covering 12 but even then Horgan could have covered that.

spoon

Earls and Reddan will make for great impact subs. TOL is an interesting choice, i've never been a huge fan of him. Hopefully he'll perform!

ALH-06

GDM wrote: »

I said he shouldn't be included, unless he's covering 12 but even then Horgan could have covered that.

Wallace is an infinitely better 12 than Horgan. But would have liked to see Horgan instead of Earls on the bench.

anonymous_joe

I like Paddy Wallace, glad to see him get a chance.

My only real worry would be Tomas O'Leary. I'd have preferred a different backrow, but it's still a great backrow. O'Leary seems a little... erratic perhaps.

bamboozle

i still have not got over the 2 tests we playing in new zealand 2 summers ago when we were well in the game with 20 minutes left...Henry made 3 or 4 tactical subs in each match, Eddie didnt, we wilted they had a surge of energy and won both.

by the looks of things Kidney has picked a lively bench which can impact on the game.
I like the idea of Flannery, Buckly & ferris coming on with 20 to go and tearing into them!!! pity Neil Best isnt available cause we need moungrels to beat them

dub_skav

Kidney has made some big calls and I'm glad to see he isn't going to just use the same old 22 like steady Eddie. Surprised O'Kelly didn't make the 22 and also surprised that DOC has held onto his jersey.

Really looking forward to this now

phog

Overall a fairly decent team, those that swapped from bench to team or vice versa are tight calls but there was no great surprise in the 1st 15.

Roll on Saturday.

NDM

this may cause agro which i dont want to happen but its merely my opinion...at international level i do not rate paddy wallace at all..sexton is a better player but does lack the experience i know..why Rob Kearney is not picked at full-back i do not know..it baffles me..he can do more damage from full back than at wing and even in our last test against NZ the kiwis even said that in their opinion kearney was Irelands stand out player..he was immense against them last time!!anyway at least hes on the field..
i dont know why tomas o leary was picked ahead of reddan but if i had to guess i reckon kidney probably feels o learys size advantage would be more beneficial when faced with the huge amount of pressure the scrum half will be under from NZ back row..
ideally i would like to see kearney at full back and shane horgan brought onto the wing..
the good thing about all of this though is that kidney seems intent on developing the squad as a whole which i think is brilliant and its definitly something that never happened under o' sullivan..interesting times ahead me thinks!!

bleg

o leary outperformed the frontrunner for the lions scrum half jersey in the last game he played, he's also held up well in the last season against some of the best no.9s in the world

NDM

bleg wrote: »

o leary outperformed the frontrunner for the lions scrum half jersey in the last game he played, he's also held up well in the last season against some of the best no.9s in the world

although i do feel tomas o leary is the most improved player in irish rugby, at present eoin reddan is a better option

Podge_irl

NDM wrote: »

this may cause agro which i dont want to happen but its merely my opinion...at international level i do not rate paddy wallace at all..sexton is a better player but does lack the experience i know..why Rob Kearney is not picked at full-back i do not know..it baffles me..he can do more damage from full back than at wing and even in our last test against NZ the kiwis even said that in their opinion kearney was Irelands stand out player..he was immense against them last time!!anyway at least hes on the field..

I wouldn't pay much attention to the number of Kearney's back, especially with Dempsey also on the pitch. The two will interchange quite a lot. Its also highly unlikely the ABs will make much out of kicks with those two at the back, which is a reassuring thought.

I'm not a huge O'Leary fan, but both Reddan and Stringer have been very poor for the last while. They were both pretty appalling against Canada - TOL deserves a shot (though its not an ideal situation).

Earls on the bench is interesting, especially at the expense of Horgan. Really thought Horgan might get in there for his defence, but its not a call I necessarily disagree with.

Shame for Mal as well, thought he might have gotten the bench spot, though going for two backrows instead is certainly an interesting approach.

Stev_o

Problems,

Backrow is as slow as it gets, McCaw doesnt have anyone to content with Quinlan wont be able to keep up with their game.

TOL at SH is such like playing Russian roulette with two chambers left, he's either going to be fine or more then likely will buckle under the moment and their backrow and start making terrible decisions.

Positives. New Zealand have a god damn awful mid field pairing, Nonu throws the most speculative passes iv ever seen for a international centre and the only reason he gets away with it is that he can do as much crash ball he likes and know that McCaw will bail him out.

New Zealand by 10 for me im afraid.

phog

Stev_o wrote: »

Problems,

Backrow is as slow as it gets, McCaw doesnt have anyone to content with Quinlan wont be able to keep up with their game.

TOL at SH is such like playing Russian roulette with two chambers left, he's either going to be fine or more then likely will buckle under the moment and their backrow and start making terrible decisions.

Positives. New Zealand have a god damn awful mid field pairing, Nonu throws the most speculative passes iv ever seen for a international centre and the only reason he gets away with it is that he can do as much crash ball he likes and know that McCaw will bail him out.

New Zealand by 10 for me im afraid.

Jaysus, we're so god awful and NZ to win by 10 only

Sparky14

The fact that O'Leary is in shows how weak we are there, probably the weakest 1st choice Scrum Half out of the top 10 nations (tho haven't seen much of Pichots replacement for the argies). He definitely has the slowest pass.

He can play a good pressure game, but when his kicking is off he'll kick it on the full all day. Not a fan.

NDM

Stev_o wrote: »

Problems,

Backrow is as slow as it gets, McCaw doesnt have anyone to content with Quinlan wont be able to keep up with their game.

TOL at SH is such like playing Russian roulette with two chambers left, he's either going to be fine or more then likely will buckle under the moment and their backrow and start making terrible decisions.

Positives. New Zealand have a god damn awful mid field pairing, Nonu throws the most speculative passes iv ever seen for a international centre and the only reason he gets away with it is that he can do as much crash ball he likes and know that McCaw will bail him out.

New Zealand by 10 for me im afraid.

heaslip and wallace will be able to match mccaws pace no problem

Sparky14

Stev_o wrote: »

Positives. New Zealand have a god damn awful mid field pairing, Nonu throws the most speculative passes iv ever seen for a international centre and the only reason he gets away with it is that he can do as much crash ball he likes and know that McCaw will bail him out.

Nonu did look well off the pace against Scotland, but he can be devastating in his own right and will be more comfortable in a tighter game. To suggest Conrad Smith is not a top class centre is silly in my opinion, not as good as McCallister but would stroll into the current Irish team ahead of Fitzgerald.

efb

I thought neither SHs covered themselves in glory last Saturday, I was in Thomond, O'Leary deserves his chance. DO'C was excellent in the LO last Saturday too, why are you all so down on him. Dempsey is solid and thats what you need against the ABs

Geraldo

Quinlan is a pretty good option if you ask e. Once Jennings failed to set the world on fire against Canada it was obvious he was gonna pick him really. Shame for Ferris coz with Wallace and Heaslip being certs it meant he had to drop out but that's the way it goes. If only Gleeson was a few years younger! Kidney may have used him and he'd have been ideal.
Other than that it's a reasonably predictable side. Horgan is the stand out thing for me though. No idea why he's not in the 22 with his physicality and experience.

NDM

Geraldo wrote: »

Quinlan is a pretty good option if you ask e. Once Jennings failed to set the world on fire against Canada it was obvious he was gonna pick him really. Shame for Ferris coz with Wallace and Heaslip being certs it meant he had to drop out but that's the way it goes. If only Gleeson was a few years younger! Kidney may have used him and he'd have been ideal.
Other than that it's a reasonably predictable side. Horgan is the stand out thing for me though. No idea why he's not in the 22 with his physicality and experience.

they are two people i feel sorry for the most, ferris and horgan...be great to see ferris come rampaging on if back row starts to wilt..as for horgan not even having him on the bench is a mistake

old boy

yere all forgetting the argie game is most important, also kidney is more than a one trick pony

Geraldo

NDM wrote: »

they are two people i feel sorry for the most, ferris and horgan...be great to see ferris come rampaging on if back row starts to wilt..as for horgan not even having him on the bench is a mistake

Well hopefully the gamble, and it is a gamble, pays off. Bit too soon to be consigning Shaggy to the scrapheap though, I'm sure he'll come back.
Have to agree about Paddy Wallace. He's the best option to fill in if O'Gara goes down and way better than organ as a centre. I'm a huge fan of Horgan but only on the wing. Wallace has far better passing skills. He's no kicker but maybe someone else such as Kearney could have a go from time to time. I remember Matt Burke for Australia. Great free taking full back!

NDM

old boy wrote: »

yere all forgetting the argie game is most important, also kidney is more than a one trick pony

im sure kidney knows what hes doin but there is a few brow raising choices made there...

[Jackass]

IRELAND team to face New Zealand at Croke Park on Saturday, 15, 5:15pm:

15. G Dempsey (Leinster)
14. T Bowe (Ospreys)
13. B O'Driscoll (Leinster, captain)
12. L Fitzgerald (Leinster)
11. R Kearney (Leinster)
10. R O'Gara (Munster)
9. T O'Leary (Munster)

1. M Horan (Munster)
2. R Best (Ulster)
3. J Hayes (Munster)
4. D O'Callaghan (Munster)
5. P O'Connell (Munster)
6. A Quinlan (Munster)
7. D Wallace (Munster)
8. J Heaslip (Leinster)

Replacements: J Flannery (Munster), T Buckley (Munster), S Ferris (Ulster), S Jennings (Leinster), E Reddan (Wasps), P Wallace (Ulster), K Earls (Munster).

The bench is extremly weak imo. Not only for it's personnell, but also for the impact it can have.

Presumably there are 2 back row players there as Quinlan wont last the 80. So by choosing to start him Kidney has named no second row cover. Big mistake imo. Although the extra legs in backrow will no doubt come in extremely handy in what is going to be an intense match, I don't think it's a good call.

Also, naming 3 backs but only really having one that can make any impact. This should be Wallace in his last role as "care taker" of the back up 10 jersey. Why oh why oh why we haven't had a look at another 10. I can forgive and forget, but come 6 nations time, one of the young players MUST get a run at 10. It would have been nice to have given them a bit of time already last weekend, mistake imo, but we'll see.

Close enough to the strongest 15 we can name. Hooker and Scrum half I'm still in disagreement with, but the other fellas in there aren't exactly bad either.

thehighground

Sparky14 wrote: »

Nonu did look well off the pace against Scotland, but he can be devastating in his own right and will be more comfortable in a tighter game. To suggest Conrad Smith is not a top class centre is silly in my opinion, not as good as McCallister but would stroll into the current Irish team ahead of Fitzgerald.

Keith Earls didn't look out of place playing centre beside Mafi opposite McAlister a couple of weeks ago against Sale.

And the fact that Kidney has picked Fitzgerald ahead of Earls would seem to suggest that Kidney has every confidence in Fitzgerald.

thehighground

NDM wrote: »

they are two people i feel sorry for the most, ferris and horgan...be great to see ferris come rampaging on if back row starts to wilt..as for horgan not even having him on the bench is a mistake

I don't know why you feel sorry for Ferris - it a squad game nowadays - he will get to play the ABs for about 30 mins on Saturday.

As for Horgan - he has not been on form. End of.

Sparky14

thehighground wrote: »

Keith Earls didn't look out of place playing centre beside Mafi opposite McAlister a couple of weeks ago against Sale.

And the fact that Kidney has picked Fitzgerald ahead of Earls would seem to suggest that Kidney has every confidence in Fitzgerald.

I wasn't suggesting that Fitzgerald or even Earls would be out of their depth, just pointing out that Conrad Smith could hardly be described as a weakness when in my opinion he would walk into our starting 15.

Sparky14

thehighground wrote: »

As for Horgan - he has not been on form. End of.

His form has definitely improved lately, and even before that was keeping Kearney out of the Leinster team. So not End of.

thehighground

efb wrote: »

I thought neither SHs covered themselves in glory last Saturday, I was in Thomond, O'Leary deserves his chance. DO'C was excellent in the LO last Saturday too, why are you all so down on him. Dempsey is solid and thats what you need against the ABs

Think some people think don't see the overall package of what some gives to the position that they play. POC is really athletic and outstanding in the air and in the loose. DOC is great at hitting the rucks and is as strong as a bull, and good at the other things. They are a good combination and that is why they will remain the two first choice locks playing together. They compliment each others strengths and weaknesses and make a good team.

Some people think that you can just throw the best players together and it will work.

thehighground

Sparky14 wrote: »

His form has definitely improved lately, and even before that was keeping Kearney out of the Leinster team. So not End of.

His form has not improved enough and Kidney (and don't forget Gaffney is involved here) made whatever call they thought was necessary. It would have been wrong if Bowe or Kearney were dropped for him.

I hope Shaggy gets his form back - and he has ample opportunity to show what he can do in training and when playing HCup for his province.

[Jackass]

It's more about the call between Dempsey and Horgan.

I'd agree Dempsey is by far more the form player. Horgan has been playing well very recently (last couple of games), Dempsey hasn't put a foot wrong all season and has been better than his usual understated best going forward.

The only issue I have with this is that it deprives Kearney of his place at FB.

Infact Earls at FB and Kearney on the wing vs Canada is one of the most bizzare choices I think I've ever seen a coach make.

redroar1942

Stev_o wrote: »

Problems,

Backrow is as slow as it gets, McCaw doesnt have anyone to content with Quinlan wont be able to keep up with their game.

TOL at SH is such like playing Russian roulette with two chambers left, he's either going to be fine or more then likely will buckle under the moment and their backrow and start making terrible decisions.

Positives. New Zealand have a god damn awful mid field pairing, Nonu throws the most speculative passes iv ever seen for a international centre and the only reason he gets away with it is that he can do as much crash ball he likes and know that McCaw will bail him out.

New Zealand by 10 for me im afraid.

Completely disagree with you regarding the backrow battle. McCaw is by no means a quick 7, its just his speed of thought that makes him such an outstanding player. Quinlans borderline cheating is exactly what we need. Wallace and Heaslip are every bit as quick as So'oialo and Kaino.


No second row on the bench is unusual but when was the last time POC or DOC were'nt able to go the 80? I can understand you Leinster boys wanting MOK back in the 22 but would you drop Jennings completely?

Diamondmaker

I am in Kiwi land right now and they have "Rugby TV" 24 /7 replays analaysis and highlights packages...awesome !

Anyway on one of the panel shows last night they are extremely confident of the Grandslam. They reckon England are the unknown quantity and as such may be a surprise threat, tgheuy do expect to put 15 to 20 on Ireland and beat us comfortably.
There is tonnes of talk aboput the Munster game, they seem to have a great interest in it too. It really should be a cracker. I hope I can get to see it some where.

Im not sure our 2 wingers have the pace to cope with the kiwi fliers, that is my biggest concern - getting opened up after a few big phases by the forwards and then quick wide ball, or worse still turn over and broken field play.
You cant legislate agianst this and Bowe and Kearney do not have the out and out pace. Unfortunatekly noone in and around teh squad is known as a speedster...how long til we find a Hickey heir ?

Is there even any talk about a great speedster coming through any where?

Loosely related tangent...Oh man oh man canterbury kit is so cheap here!

leinster regualr shirt 120 NZD = 54 yo yos !

redroar1942

[Jackass] wrote: »

It's more about the call between Dempsey and Horgan.

I'd agree Dempsey is by far more the form player. Horgan has been playing well very recently (last couple of games), Dempsey hasn't put a foot wrong all season and has been better than his usual understated best going forward.

The only issue I have with this is that it deprives Kearney of his place at FB.

Infact Earls at FB and Kearney on the wing vs Canada is one of the most bizzare choices I think I've ever seen a coach make.

Because to accomodate Kearney at FB you'd have to get Bowe to switch wings, which is idiotic as he's clearly best where he is. Horgan has be ok at best but Kearney was outstanding on the wing and as you've alluded to Dempsey has been playing well at FB. If you're not going to give Earls a run at FB against the ****e teams then when???

I really dont see what you're whinging about.

Diamondmaker

NDM wrote: »

..why Rob Kearney is not picked at full-back i do not know..it baffles me..he can do more damage from full back than at wing and even in our last test against NZ the kiwis even said that in their opinion kearney was Irelands stand out player..he was immense against them last time!!anyway at least hes on the field..!!

The Australian media were the same..

" where the hell was this guy during the RWC? "

I think a previosu post on the impact of the bench in the last few games is critical. The last few games we have played the ABs we have been ahead or close coming to the 60 mark. They then always hit us with a sucker punch and just pip us. eddies lack of subbing perhaps was the undoing and hopefull Kidney has this nailed...hopefully we are in a position to win it come 20 to go!

marco_polo

[Jackass] wrote: »

It's more about the call between Dempsey and Horgan.

I'd agree Dempsey is by far more the form player. Horgan has been playing well very recently (last couple of games), Dempsey hasn't put a foot wrong all season and has been better than his usual understated best going forward.

The only issue I have with this is that it deprives Kearney of his place at FB.

Infact Earls at FB and Kearney on the wing vs Canada is one of the most bizzare choices I think I've ever seen a coach make.

I don't think in the light of todays selection it was bizzare, it is entirely possible that he knew the makeup of his back three since last week and that wanted to give Earls some game time at international level and Kearney some at left wing with a view to him playing there a week later against the All Blacks.

If you look at it that way then all he has done is select Dempsey ahead of Horgan, and I don't think anyone could quibble too much with that on the basis of this seasons form.

It is the case that we have alot of versatile backs and very few specialist wingers, so someone will always be playing out of position to fill at least one of the wing spots.

That being said, I do hope Kearney makes the permanent move to 15 sooner rather than later.

d-gal

redroar1942 wrote: »

Completely disagree with you regarding the backrow battle. McCaw is by no means a quick 7, its just his speed of thought that makes him such an outstanding player. Quinlans borderline cheating is exactly what we need. Wallace and Heaslip are every bit as quick as So'oialo and Kaino.


No second row on the bench is unusual but when was the last time POC or DOC were'nt able to go the 80? I can understand you Leinster boys wanting MOK back in the 22 but would you drop Jennings completely?

+1, the backrow being slow is a load of BS, hasn't wallace played wing a couple of times back in his day
Quinlan will cover the second row and DOC and POC will last the 80 anyways so no worries. Would choose ferris and jennings anyday over just 1 of them and MOK. We need impact, people that can change the game and thats what kidney has gone for.

ALH-06

marco_polo wrote: »

That being said, I do hope Kearney makes the permanent move to 15 sooner rather than later.

I completely disagree. Kearney has made no secret that he prefers full-back and that is his best position.

But if it's one thing the Wasps game has taught us, its that he can be just as effective playing on the wing. He was supreme in that match, dominated the aerial battle and got his hands on the ball going forward just as much as Dempsey. He also links up very well with Dempsey, the two play as a cohesive unit.

Btw Dempsey is constantly underrated and never seems to get the credit for his contributions. He is still first choice, even with Murphy, Kearney and Earls really impressing at club level and that proves just how good he is. Kidney, Gaffney et al are no fools.

EdgarAllenPoo

[Jackass] wrote: »

The only issue I have with this is that it deprives Kearney of his place at FB.

Infact Earls at FB and Kearney on the wing vs Canada is one of the most bizzare choices I think I've ever seen a coach make.

I think Kearney was picked on the wing as an extra kicking option.

[Jackass]

redroar1942 wrote: »

Because to accomodate Kearney at FB you'd have to get Bowe to switch wings, which is idiotic as he's clearly best where he is. Horgan has be ok at best but Kearney was outstanding on the wing and as you've alluded to Dempsey has been playing well at FB. If you're not going to give Earls a run at FB against the ****e teams then when???

I really dont see what you're whinging about.

I don't think Bowe is any margin superior on the right wing than the left. Infact, I was always of the opinion he was better on the left!

In relation to when give Earls game time at Full-Back????? How's about NEVER!!! :eek: He's not a full back and never will be! Not that he doesn't have the talent, he has bags of the stuff, but with the Full Back options we have (Kearney, Murphy & Dempsey) why would we want to develop him there? The only reason he ever played full back in the first place is because Munster didn't have one in form as he was breaking through! Howlett could play out of position to cover it, but why play one of the best specialist wingers in the world out of position? Hurley was out of form, Mafi & Tipoki are a settled partnership in the centre, so Earls, who had to fit in somewhere, and was put there.

Plus, for pace, I'd have Earls on the wing instead of Kearney - and for proven ability under the high ball and one of the most ferocious abilites of punting of a ball I've ever seen, I'd have Kearney at Full Back ahead of Earls. Even after the tour down under they were ranting and raving about this amazing Irish full back - who hasn't started a single game there for any team since!!

So why have a superb ful back on the wing to accomodate a superb developing talent in a position he has no future in? Earls will / should be a wing for now and eventually will replace Tipoki at Munster and ultimately B'OD, Fitz or D'Arcy - whatever way it is jigged a few years down the line and what players we have. Sure even Fitzgerald says his best position is Full back and he's played in the centre. Kearney says his best position is full back and he plays on the wing and Earls says his best position is centre and he's played at full back. Insanity. It's not whinging, it's common sense.

redroar1942

finished? There's often a difference between a players favourite position i.e the one they claim to be best and the position they're best actually suited to. Speak to any back three player in the country and 9/10 will say 15 is their favourite. They get lots of ball and space and plenty of time to make decisions. Their preference does'nt always go hand in hand with their best position.

We have a real shortage of on form wingers at the mo but plenty of full backs. Kearney on the wing is short term but needed for now.

I think your point about Earls is skewed. Although centre might be his prefered position he is clearly a better 15. In three years time there'll only be him and Kearney for 15. Blood him now against the donkeys.