Dublin Outer Orbital Route (DOOR)

darkman2

Any more details - is this for certain?

mysterious

The only section of DOOR I'd like to see go ahead is the Navan to Drogheda motorway section. I would prefer that the rest of DOOR is the N52. Since the N52 is the focus of upgrades now between Tullamore and Navan already.

The M9 traffic would be left out of the equation I understand but the it seems ok that the SE traffic can go up the M7 or M11 and head straight up the M1. I was in favour of the DOOR. But I honestly think we don't need another sprawling outer style M50. What dublin needs in terms of road infrastructure is a sandyford bay Tunnel, Newlands cross upgrade, and a few more river liffey bridges to ease the cross city centre traffic. The rest of the upgrades should focused on the interconnecter and Metro.

I think we have a enough motorways geared towards and around Dublin. The focus needs to be put onto the N52, N62, and N80 imo. It would be a bonus for Dublin and the entire countries since more towns are connected to either Dublin or the road grid.

The N52 needs upgrades from WS2/2+1 Borriskane to Kilcormac. 2+2 and standard DC from Tullamore to Mulingar. 2+2 from Mullingar to Navan and motorway from Navan to the M1. This would then mean that an orbital is done and all the largest towns in the country are connected with a decent road.

I will draw a map.

Stonewolf

I think DOOR is much better than LOO, perhaps the official name is a reference to the governments attitude towards money.

This thread appears to have been necromanced, has anything actually happened in relation to this project since 2008?

Stark

Is the DOOR not largely redundant now that the M50 has been upgraded and seems to be working well?

dubhthach

Stark wrote: »

Is the DOOR not largely redundant now that the M50 has been upgraded and seems to be working well?

[Sarcasm]
But without the DOOR FF supporters won't be able to get large landbanks down the country rezoned for future inclusion in "NAMA 2.0"
[/Sarcasm]

John Lynch Ph.D

mysterious wrote: »

The only section of DOOR I'd like to see go ahead is the Navan to Drogheda motorway section. I would prefer that the rest of DOOR is the N52. Since the N52 is the focus of upgrades now between Tullamore and Navan already.

Why? because you live in the area? The whole project should go ahead without question but if sections had to be prioritized then it would have be the connections between the M4 and M7.

They are the busier roads.

Gurgle

John Lynch Ph.D wrote: »

The whole project should go ahead without question but if sections had to be prioritized then it would have be the connections between the M4 and M7.

I agree the project should go ahead, but not as a motorway.

The Trim - Drogheda route is my daily commute (25 miles / 50 minutes :rolleyes:) and there simply isn't the volume of traffic to justify a motorway.

Whats there now are several parallel donkey tracks, each as narrow, twisty and potholed as the others. Whats needed is one of those roads upgraded to a decent N road to take the traffic, the others repaired for local access.

emfifty

mysterious wrote: »

The only section of DOOR I'd like to see go ahead is the Navan to Drogheda motorway section. I would prefer that the rest of DOOR is the N52. Since the N52 is the focus of upgrades now between Tullamore and Navan already.

The M9 traffic would be left out of the equation I understand but the it seems ok that the SE traffic can go up the M7 or M11 and head straight up the M1. I was in favour of the DOOR. But I honestly think we don't need another sprawling outer style M50. What dublin needs in terms of road infrastructure is a sandyford bay Tunnel, Newlands cross upgrade, and a few more river liffey bridges to ease the cross city centre traffic. The rest of the upgrades should focused on the interconnecter and Metro.

I think we have a enough motorways geared towards and around Dublin. The focus needs to be put onto the N52, N62, and N80 imo. It would be a bonus for Dublin and the entire countries since more towns are connected to either Dublin or the road grid.

The N52 needs upgrades from WS2/2+1 Borriskane to Kilcormac. 2+2 and standard DC from Tullamore to Mulingar. 2+2 from Mullingar to Navan and motorway from Navan to the M1. This would then mean that an orbital is done and all the largest towns in the country are connected with a decent road.

I will draw a map.

Forget about upgrades to the n52:(. The days of building half arsed roads are over. the reason for the push on this new motorway is the fact that it is a ppp. there are several spanish and other european contactors who are gagging to get their hands on new irish motorway projects. plus they have the finance to follow through.

emfifty

any takers on the official naming convention?:rolleyes:

I am going with M40 (as there is no n40!);)

Stark

It would be the M9 and/or the M51 most likely.

loyatemu

emfifty wrote: »

any takers on the official naming convention?:rolleyes:

I am going with M40 (as there is no n40!);)

M9

mysterious

John Lynch Ph.D wrote: »

Why? because you live in the area? The whole project should go ahead without question but if sections had to be prioritized then it would have be the connections between the M4 and M7.

They are the busier roads.

:rolleyes: No I don't live in the area, I just happen to be a road expert.;)

Navan has 30,000 and Drogheda has 30,000. Mulingar, Tullamore and Atlone all connect to the east coast via the N52, N51. It's a good idea to build an offline motorway that will get rid of the substandard road that is currently there.

There is already an outer ring road connecting Tallaght Clondalkin and Lucan. Which is a second western Ring around Dublin.

An upgraded N52, will move most of the cross country traffic away from the M7 and M50, which is the purpose of DOOR. You clearly have no idea what your talking about nor do you know the actual points I've made on this.

John Lynch Ph.D

mysterious wrote: »

:rolleyes:

There is already an outer ring road connecting Tallaght Clondalkin and Lucan. Which is a second western Ring around Dublin.

If I wanted to get from N4 to N7 I would use the M50 not that road, its designed more for traffic within Dublin.

As for your argument on population figures, far more people live between Naas/Newbridge and North Kildare (Maynooth,Kilcock).

Tech3

This DOOR project should be firmly put on the backburner as there is so many projects that badly need to be built well before this even gets to the planning stages. The national primary roads are still goats tracks like the N18, N21, N24, N17, N15 etc.. The M50 will be efficient for the next decade at the very least unless we have a massive population increase which is not very likely.

mysterious

John Lynch Ph.D wrote: »

If I wanted to get from N4 to N7 I would use the M50 not that road, its designed more for traffic within Dublin.

As for your argument on population figures, far more people live between Naas/Newbridge and North Kildare (Maynooth,Kilcock).

There is two ring roads for the M7, M4 to use. Upgraded M50, or ORR. There is also the R404 or something. there isn't exactly thousands of cars using it to specifically go between the M7 and M4.

Your missing the point, an upgraded M51,M52 would mean M7, M8 traffic can use the trunk network to connect to the other motorways.

You can use the local roads provided between the M4 and M7, bet your from around there or something because you keep overstepping the point I KEEP pointing out.

mysterious

tech2 wrote: »

This DOOR project should be firmly put on the backburner as there is so many projects that badly need to be built well before this even gets to the planning stages. The national primary roads are still goats tracks like the N18, N21, N24, N17, N15 etc.. The M50 will be efficient for the next decade at the very least unless we have a massive population increase which is not very likely.

Which is why I think upgrading the N52 seems most logical for the time being. I don't think Ireland needs another M50 style motorway going through the greater Dublin area its completely unecessary imo. We don't have a holland type population to warrent such a route. It would be all fine and well if we had a motorway like it as a luxury, but I think luxurious are way off the radar now.

Seth Brundle

mysterious wrote: »

I don't think Ireland needs another M50 style motorway going through the greater Dublin area its completely unecessary imo. We don't have a holland type population to warrent such a route.

Surely it has less to do with population & public needs and more to do with the fact that FF builder contacts are all short of work at the moment?

Irish and Proud

emfifty wrote: »

any takers on the official naming convention?:rolleyes:

I am going with M40 (as there is no n40!);)

Me too!!!

M40

Irish and Proud

emfifty wrote: »

Forget about upgrades to the n52:(. The days of building half arsed roads are over. the reason for the push on this new motorway is the fact that it is a ppp. there are several spanish and other european contactors who are gagging to get their hands on new irish motorway projects. plus they have the finance to follow through.

While on the surface Mysterious might have a point about building more motorways when upgraded national roads might be better suited to the traffic needs of rural areas, the DOOR (or LOOR) could be a glorious opportunity to forge a better commuting model. My thinking is that with an outer ring like the DOOR along with fibre-optics etc, towns like Drogheda, Navan, Newbridge etc could be transformed into major employment centres (with proper strategic planning). Railways in the vicinity would become a lot more viable then, as you would have people commuting in both directions alongs lines such as the Northern Line and proposed Navan Line. With less empty trains and more people travelling shorter distances, there would be less waste and congestion. Also, there would be scope for opening up the Navan-Drogheda Line for passengers too. Also, very importantly to this whole concept is the development to Bremore Port (not a speculative plan) which would feed off the DOOR. Oh, and to stop the over-use of the motorway by commuters, parking before 10am could be severely curtailed thereby encouraging the use of public transport and thereby conserving more fuel.

Regards!

coolperson05

I think if your talking linking towns then a more public transport solution could help? A DART system for Navan, Drogheda, Naas etc....better train service or something...If people are looking for a true road bypass of dublin then your looking at goin up the middle of the country really...Aiming to join the M9, M8, M7, M6 in the centre rather than close to Dublin... Public transport should get the preference over billion euro motorways, already its far quicker to drive than use trains in certain places...how can public transport sell itself?

spacetweek

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Me too!!!
M40

I have always assumed this road would be called M40 also.

cullenswood

So are we looking at at least 10 years before this is built if ever?

lukejr

The NRA has details of the feasibility report and route maps on their website, the route appears to be called the Leinster Orbital Route.

http://www.nra.ie/News/NewsAnnouncements/htmltext,16140,en.html

Amtmann

Thread on that feasibility report here.

JeffK88

Thought might bump this back up. Now that the Cork South Ring Road has taken the number of N40 what is left for this road. M35 , M45 ??

Sponge Bob

Nothing. This scheme is not needed any more and is a distraction from the necessary upgrades to the N52 and N80 which would become a genuine orbital serving Dundalk/Navan/Mullingar/Tullamore/Portlaoise and Carlow and allowing people to track across from motorway to motorway which is a right pain nowadays.

Upgrades are also required around Dublin outside the M50, one is underway between the N2 and N3 north of Blanchardstown right now and the Lucan Citywest Tallaght segment is complete ( bar Newlands Cross) but these will be regional roads...instead of the country boreens that are there now.

expectationlost

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-by-pass-plan-way-down-the-priority-list-says-varadkar-598704.html#.Ucx7u-FH020.twitter The Transport Minister has said that plans for a massive by-pass of Dublin through the midlands and Leinster is now way down the agenda.

veryangryman

Possibly a decent time to bump this again. With recent population rises in the suburbs, perhaps suburb to suburb connection need to be looked at (road and transport).

Consonata

I don't think another orbital road is the answer really. It'll only be as congested as the M50 is currently.

Real answer is to discourage private car usage and fix the mess of a bus system.

magicbastarder

if you build it, they will come.

Seth Brundle

magicbastarder wrote: »

if you build it, they will come.

Fingal CoCo want to build a dual carriageway going from Leixlip to Clonee through St. Catherines Park.
This will include the first bridge built that crosses the Liffey and is sure to become an alternative to the M50 (but without the toll cost).
Waste if money IMO.

daheff

Consonata wrote: »

I don't think another orbital road is the answer really. It'll only be as congested as the M50 is currently.

Real answer is to discourage private car usage and fix the mess of a bus system.

Why is the answer always to discourage private car usage?


Surely if you provide proper commuting options people will have a choice of how they travel and not need to commute by car. The stick approach doesnt work if there is no other option for people.

bk

daheff wrote: »

Surely if you provide proper commuting options people will have a choice of how they travel and not need to commute by car. The stick approach doesnt work if there is no other option for people.

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Even if their are good commuting options, many people still take the car, even if it is longer (see all the people trying to drive into Dublin City Center every day!).

Part of the problem is the sunk cost of the car. Car's are so expensive to buy in up front costs, people feel it is a waste to leave it sitting there in the drive way. Also once you have a car, the running cost for a journey is the same or less then the cost of public transport for the same journey.

A lot of people prefer to sit in bumper to bumper traffic and just complain about it, while folks on buses and bikes in the lane beside them fly past!

daheff

bk wrote: »

. Even if their are good commuting options, many people still take the car,

Don't make me laugh. We don't know the meaning of good commuting options. You live anywhere near a commuter train line you pay a high premium for it. You dont live near one, you dont have a reasonable option (even commuter train lines arent great).

Try living in a big city London/Munich/Frankfurt and you'll see what good commuting options are.

Deedsie wrote: »

I am a driver, don't see how more people don't see it the same way as me.

Try being a commuter...see how inefficient and slow (and bloody unreliable) it is. Just because there are buses/trains on a timetable doesnt mean they turn up on time, empty enough for you to get on or even at all!

n97 mini

Deedsie wrote: »

And totally unnecessary destruction of a public park and the remnants of an ancient forest so we can bypass the bypass of Dublin. I wonder what will happen in 10 years time. Will we need a DOOOR I wonder?

Not gonna happen as there is too much local opposition.

From what I read the plan is to toll the road also, to stop it from draining all traffic off the m50 toll.

_Kaiser_

Deedsie wrote: »

I am a commuter. I travel 10km each way everyday.

10km? Try 100km each way as many who are "clogging" the roads are now forced to do thanks to poor, impractical, or non-existent public transport and spiraling housing and rent prices in Dublin.

This isn't an outlier case either as the N/M 1, 3, 4, 7, and 11 will show every day.

bk

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

10km? Try 100km each way as many who are "clogging" the roads are now forced to do thanks to poor, impractical, or non-existent public transport and spiraling housing and rent prices in Dublin.

And whose fault is that?

We are to blame. It is the fault of the typical Irish mentality that you have to have a 3 bedroom, two storey house, with two car spaces out the front and a garden out back, the Irish dream!

But that just isn't possible in a quickly growing city, thus people have to buy a house way out and drive insane distants every day.

A city can either grow up or grow out. We unfortunately have decided on out and it is a terrible mistake imo.

_Kaiser_

bk wrote: »

And whose fault is that?

We are to blame. It is the fault of the typical Irish mentality that you have to have a 3 bedroom, two storey house, with two car spaces out the front and a garden out back, the Irish dream!

But that just isn't possible in a quickly growing city, thus people have to buy a house way out and drive insane distants every day.

A city can either grow up or grow out. We unfortunately have decided on out and it is a terrible mistake imo.

I don't disagree.. it's frankly nonsensical in a city/country that likes to position itself as an equal to major European cities that we don't have properly-sized high rise in the capital. If it were up to me I'd demolish the entire Sherrif St end out as far as Fairview. At the very least I'd be building on the plenty of green spaces around the M50.

But until there are places for people to affordably and sustainably live long term then you can't penalise them for taking the only realistic option they have to get to/from work on time and reliably.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

And whose fault is that?

We are to blame. It is the fault of the typical Irish mentality that you have to have a 3 bedroom, two storey house, with two car spaces out the front and a garden out back, the Irish dream!

But that just isn't possible in a quickly growing city, thus people have to buy a house way out and drive insane distants every day.

A city can either grow up or grow out. We unfortunately have decided on out and it is a terrible mistake imo.

In fairness there is a chronic shortage of all types in Dublin at the moment. Singles would be into high rise apartment blocks like a rocket, if they existed. Instead councillors are voting to build 4000 houses in Celbridge...

Consonata

Deedsie wrote: »

It's your own fault if you choose to live 100km from where you work and piss and moan that it is someone else's fault but your own.

This is a separate issue. Can't cycle to work if there are no houses in the city to cycle from. Its a matter of availability not choice. Pretending otherwise gives cyclists everywhere a bad name.

magicbastarder

Consonata wrote: »

gives cyclists everywhere a bad name.

a bad name? i've had a few drinks, but i really am struggling with this.

_Kaiser_

Deedsie wrote: »

200km of fuel, plus tolls, plus your inevitable medical expenses from sitting in a car 4 hours a day would easily make up the cost of renting in Dublin.

It's your own fault if you choose to live 100km from where you work and piss and moan that it is someone else's fault but your own.

My rent is expensive but at least I can safely cycle to and from work without having to give up 4 hours of my free time to sit in a metal box and a strip of tarmac.

Actually it only takes me about an hour each way as I can start/finish later and work from home, but not everyone has that option.

It's absolutely ridiculous however that my choice is either to commute or piss away over double what I'm paying now (even factoring in the diesel and running costs) to live in a 2 bed apartment in a decent area of Dublin close to the office - and that's before you add in bills and the higher cost of living. If it makes you feel better though, I'd happily avoid Dublin altogether (and I say that AS a Dub) if I had the option.

The current rent prices are not sustainable - something we're seeing by the increased volume of long distance commuters and people losing the roof over their heads - and need to be addressed by increased sustainable supply and better public transport links that bring people where they need to be, without the scenic detour via An Lar.

magicbastarder

i doubt you'll find too many people disagreeing with that; the rental market is dysfunctional and the PT network needs a hell of a lot of work.
i'm fortunate enough to live within what is (for me, anyway) a cycleable distance from work (albeit with the caveat that my employer provides excellent facilities for cyclists).

HivemindXX

Consonata wrote: »

This is a separate issue. Can't cycle to work if there are no houses in the city to cycle from. Its a matter of availability not choice. Pretending otherwise gives cyclists everywhere a bad name.

I don't think people who claim they have to live 100km from their work or that that is a typical commute are doing their own name any favours. Or people who claim there are no places to live in or near the city. You just can't have everything you want and if you put the commute distance on the bottom of your priority list I don't have a lot of sympathy with your demands to spend billions on motorways to facilitate you.

According to a CSO press release based on the 2006 census urban workers travelled an average of 12.8km to work.
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/census2006results/volume12/volume_12_press_release.pdf

magicbastarder

there used to be a woman in our place who commuted from armagh to leopardstown every day - she drove to the train station (at either newry or dundalk, can't remember which), changed onto the DART at connolly, and got the feeder bus from blackrock DART station up to the office.

daheff

n97 mini wrote: »

Instead councillors are voting to build 4000 houses in Celbridge...

They are voting to put the houses where they want them rather than reject the idea and have a 'solution' pushed down to them from Bord Planeala...same in Leixlip/Maynooth.

Deedsie wrote: »

200km of fuel, plus tolls, plus your inevitable medical expenses from sitting in a car 4 hours a day would easily make up the cost of renting in Dublin.

What inevitable medical expenses???

You might want to cost that out to prove its as expensive as living in Dublin

Deedsie wrote: »

It's your own fault if you choose to live 100km from where you work and piss and moan that it is someone else's fault but your own.

Not everybody has the "choice". People's decisions to live in certain areas are not all determined by the cost of rent/mortgage. There are other issues like childcare /family/access to services etc.

n97 mini

daheff wrote: »

They are voting to put the houses where they want them rather than reject the idea and have a 'solution' pushed down to them from Bord Planeala...same in Leixlip/Maynooth.

I get that. My point is it's daft to be building 4000 houses in Celbridge at all. 90% will be commuters to Dublin. The shortage is in Dublin, not Celbridge.

ThisRegard

Consonata wrote: »

I don't think another orbital road is the answer really. It'll only be as congested as the M50 is currently.

Real answer is to discourage private car usage and fix the mess of a bus system.

Outside of the M50 it's a futile exercise, car use is essential really. All public transport goes into the city centre, there's nothing orbital bar 1 or 2 half hearted efforts.

bk wrote: »

Even if their are good commuting options, many people still take the car, even if it is longer (see all the people trying to drive into Dublin City Center every day!).

I could always get door to door into my office in the city centre faster by private car and bike than by public transport. Public transport is not the panacea unless you live on a rail line or on a quality bus corridor with pretty much direct bus routes.

_Kaiser_

Deedsie wrote: »

You work in South Dublin? You used to rent in South Dublin? You moved to somewhere 100km away from where you work and now rent an apartment there? Is that correct? And you think you have any reason to complain about traffic or lack of roads infrastructure? Ridiculous.

How much could you possibly be saving a year to justify a decision like that? Crazy

I think you need to take a breath and relax a bit there.. it's too nice a day to be getting so wound up (and as someone else said, you're not doing your argument any favours)

I pay less than half the rent I'd be paying if I was still renting in South County. Add in approx 250 in diesel per month and it's STILL over 800 less than the €1700+ I'd be paying back in Dublin (from a quick Daft search).
Even adding in extra things like tyres and wear and tear and it's STILL far better value.

€1700-1900 a month for a 2 bed apartment in D18 though is ridiculous.. there's f-all in the area besides more housing and the overpriced Dundrum SC. As I said it's not sustainable and a quick read of the Accommodation forum will show the problems it's causing.

Two things need to happen...

- Property supply needs to increase significantly so that prices come back to more realistic levels (and 2007 rates are NOT something we should be aspiring to long term).

- PT needs to be cheaper, more reliable, and go to where people want to be.
If I wanted to use the PT alternative now it'd mean a bus/train to An Lar and then walk to the LUAS in Stephens Green. How long would THAT take me? 3 hours each way maybe? How much would it cost?
How about instead we build a luas parallel to the M50 with massive P&R facilities at the 3 major junctions (M3, M4 M7) and feeder/shuttle services at stops along the line to the major business parks in the area (Ballycoolin/Damastown, Ballymount, Sandyford, Cherrywood etc).
Think of the traffic problems that would solve on the M50 and inside it for those who don't want to/can't live in Dublin but still have to work there.

But that'd require long term thinking and investment.. not something we do well.

Seth Brundle

n97 mini wrote: »

I get that. My point is it's daft to be building 4000 houses in Celbridge at all. 90% will be commuters to Dublin. The shortage is in Dublin, not Celbridge.

Have a look at the proposed resedential zones - much of it is away from the train line and will suit car journeys. Surely more of it should have been on the southern end, closer to Hazelhatch.
http://kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/Planning/DevelopmentPlans/LocalAreaPlans/DraftCelbridgeLocalAreaPlan2017-2023/Map%2013.1%20Land%20use%20zoning%20map_%20B.pdf

At least with the Leixlip plan, they stuck the bulk of the proposed resedential area north of the trainline at Confey.