Deputies Deasy and Mitchell's comments in the media

Rovi

dresden8 wrote: »

RTE news today, Garda Commissioner at PAC giving out about that super uber weapon, the Glock.

And yes, we're officially all hit-men now. I think we should form a cartel and not under-cut each other on price.

I'll post a link when I find it.

I caught the very end of that, and heard something along the lines of "600 legally held firearms used in crime every year", or words to that effect! :eek:
That sounds like an insane figure, did anyone else hear it or am I going balmy?

Sparks

What news program was it, news at one?

Rovi

Sparks wrote: »

What news program was it, news at one?

Yep, still on at the moment, but they've long since moved on to other stories.

It'll be interesting to hear if the bould Joe runs with it.

Sparks

It'll be [url=rtsp://od2.rte.ie/2008/1113/13112008rte-newsatone.ra]here so when they get it processed and up on the web[/url].

Rovi

And here's the New At One archive page:
http://www.rte.ie/news/news1pm/

It'll get posted there in due course, as a separate item.

Our man in Havana

Rovi wrote: »

Yep, still on at the moment, but they've long since moved on to other stories.

It'll be interesting to hear if the bould Joe runs with it.

Too busy dicussing stolen DVDs at the moment.

rrpc

Three inaccuracies so far, Sean O'Rourke would also need to prove genuine reason for having two Glocks and a safe place to use and store them.

Secondly, the courts don't grant refused licences, they return the application to the Superintendent with the instruction to review it. The Superintendent is still persona designata and can still refuse on other grounds the court hasn't considered.

Thirdly,the commissioner isn't precluded from giving instruction to Superintendents by a court decision, its the firearms acts that preclude him. That's what the court decided on the basis of the law as it then stood.

The CJA 2006 has amended that to allow the commissioner issue guidelines and this is still waiting to be implemented - the guidelines haven't issued yet and that ball is split between the commissioners and the ministers court because section 31 hasn't (to the best of my knowledge) been commenced yet.

Rovi

It's up!
Fourth item down:
http://www.rte.ie/news/news1pm/

Now to see if I was hearing 'the voices'

tonysopprano

Thank you for your email. I'm sure it is true that only a small proportion of legally held guns end up in the hands of criminals. I do believe though that .societies that have a proliferation of guns, more specifically handguns, also tend to have higher gun crime. I accept too that that may not be true in every case. I should point out however, and I apologise if I gave any other impression, that I was speaking merely about handguns and not about shotguns that would be in common use amongst the rural community.

The reason this matter came to the fore as you are probably aware, was where in two cases superintendents refusing gun licences, had judicial reviews brought against them. In each case the superintendents' decision was overturned. Information made available to the party by members of the Gardaí indicated that there was a) inconsistency across the country in terms of the ease of obtaining a handgun licence and b) Gardaí were aware of handgun licence applications where there was no obvious reason for the applicant to actually own a gun, and c) that ownership of one gun gave almost automatic entitlement to further licences.

I certainly never intended to imply that the vast majority of gun owners held them for anything other than legitimate sporting purposes. I can also assure you that no member of the public that I have spoken to interpreted what was said as a suggestion that owners of legally held guns obtained those guns for nefarious purposes. I am more than aware of the many active sporting gun clubs in the country, including in my own constituency, and I wish them continuing success.

Kind regards,

Olivia

_________________________________________________________
Olivia Mitchell TD
Dublin South Constituency & Fine Gael Spokesperson on Arts, Sport and Tourism
Leinster House
Kildare Street
Dublin 2.

Tel: (01) 6183088 - Fax: (01) 6184579
Email: olivia.mitchell@oireachtas.ie
Website: www.oliviamitchell.finegael.ie

Rovi

"800 legally held firearms seized from criminals last year"


WTF?

tonysopprano

Thank you very much for taking the time to email me.

You raised a number of points in your email and I think it only proper that I provide you with a detailed response that you deserve.

If you don't mind, I might give you a call over the coming days so that I discuss this in greater detail with you.

I hope to speak with you soon.

Kind Regards,

Paschal
________________
Paschal Donohoe
Fine Gael Senator - Dublin Central
Tel: 01 - 618 3689
Fax: 01 - 618 4303
Email: paschal.donohoe@oireachtas.ie
Web: www.paschaldonohoe.ie

Sparks

tonysopprano wrote: »

The reason this matter came to the fore as you are probably aware, was where in two cases superintendents refusing gun licences, had judicial reviews brought against them. In each case the superintendents' decision was overturned.

No, it wasn't - the Gardai were told their decisions were made illegally and had to be re-made - they were not directed to issue the licences.
Subtle point, but bloody important!

Gardaí were aware of handgun licence applications where there was no obvious reason for the applicant to actually own a gun

In which case they are legally bound to refuse the application.

I am more than aware of the many active sporting gun clubs in the country, including in my own constituency, and I wish them continuing success.

Mind you, she was the one who prevented continuing success for those shooters in her own constituency...

ranger4

CJhaughey wrote: »

This won't happen as long as you have a Judiciary who are very keen to assert their independence.

At Law obiding citizens expense, Not theirs. cowardly *****.

Bananaman

I fear the worst for my chosen sport.......

+1

What I find quite worrisome is that, just recently, there seems to be a growing groundswell of negative press towards licensed handgun owners. In genral and also in particular against the owners of Glock Pistols.

We have the press outlining that this is where the criminals are getting their guns ( 800 stolen firearms - can that be true ???? ) and that the Gardai are powerless to prevent it in the face of the courts.

We had Paul Reynolds stating on the news the other night that ballistic tests had proven it was a Glock Pistol that shot that poor bloke in Limerick. ( is that possible ???)

We have the Garda Commisioner stating that he has to hand out Glock Pistols which are what the criminals are using - leaving the obvioius insinuation hanging - surely he would not make a comment like that without the backing of the press office.

We have Politicians clambering to get on the bandwagon.

As I have said on many occasions before I abhor the politics of the shooting sports but I have admit I am getting quite worried that the facts seem to have been abandoned in the need to be seen to "do something" by far too many people.

Hopefully I am wrong.

B'Man

Jonty

Not to sound like the prophet of doom, but it seems to be the end of days for pistol shooting again in this isle. If I hear anymore sh1te about the dreaded glock pistol I'll burst.

Instead of banning pistols, can they not ban crims instead?

CDfm

Is it just me but when I hear or see a Fine Gael person on TV I just cringe.

They are so bloody awful and out of touch with reality.If they didnt ad lib so much it would make good comedy- maybe not good comedy - but on par with David McSavage and DEs Bishop.

dimebag249

Jonty wrote: »

Not to sound like the prophet of doom, but it seems to be the end of days for pistol shooting again in this isle. If I hear anymore sh1te about the dreaded glock pistol I'll burst.

Instead of banning pistols, can they not ban crims instead?

What, make the offence against another person the crime, instead of posessing the means to commit the crime? You mean like banning assault instead of fists, banning rape instead of making it illegal to carry a concealed penis, or making it illegal to run people over instead of banning cars?

Revolutionary... it'd be too unprecedented though.

G17

Anyone know when the next FCP meeting is? Can the FCP members hold an emergency meeting?


The top Garda in the country isn't aware that Glocks make fine sporting pistols. To single out a brand of pistol as being more dangerous than another is so completely ridiculous that I don't believe that our Garda Commissioner made that statement on RTÉ, surely our top police officer has advisors that give him technical information when he is addressing a particular 'issue'.

I'm going to lose my Glock sporting pistol because someone saw Die Hard 2, it's really that simple, it really is!!!

ironsight

Bananaman wrote: »

We had Paul Reynolds stating on the news the other night that ballistic tests had proven it was a Glock Pistol that shot that poor bloke in Limerick. ( is that possible ???)


B'Man

Glock were among the first manufacturer's to use the system of polygonal rifling, and depending on the calibre of the pistol it is either the hexagonal or octagonal rifling both of which are limited in the number of firearm makes using this system. That and everyone know from the Movies that Glock's are BAD, nasty,Evil thing's only used by criminal's.

Olivia's reply to my e-mail to her.. most likely a standard reply for everyone

Dear ******

Thank you for your email. I'm sure it is true that only a small proportion of legally held guns end up in the hands of criminals. I do believe though that .societies that have a proliferation of guns, more specifically handguns, also tend to have higher gun crime. I accept too that that may not be true in every case. I should point out however, and I apologise if I gave any other impression, that I was speaking merely about handguns and not about shotguns that would be in common use amongst the rural community.

The reason this matter came to the fore as you are probably aware, was where in two cases superintendents refusing gun licences, had judicial reviews brought against them. In each case the superintendents' decision was overturned. Information made available to the party by members of the Gardaí indicated that there was a) inconsistency across the country in terms of the ease of obtaining a handgun licence and b) Gardaí were aware of handgun licence applications where there was no obvious reason for the applicant to actually own a gun, and c) that ownership of one gun gave almost automatic entitlement to further licences.

I certainly never intended to imply that the vast majority of gun owners held them for anything other than legitimate sporting purposes. I can also assure you that no member of the public that I have spoken to interpreted what was said as a suggestion that owners of legally held guns obtained those guns for nefarious purposes. I am more than aware of the many active sporting gun clubs in the country, including in my own constituency, and I wish them continuing success.

Kind regards,

Olivia

Sparks

G17 wrote: »

I'm going to lose my Glock sporting pistol because someone saw Die Hard, it's really that simple, it really is!!!

Worse than that, not even Die Hard, more like US Marshals. So not even a box office hit...

G17

Sparks wrote: »

Worse than that, not even Die Hard, more like US Marshals. So not even a box office hit...

Porcelain beats sissy every time! :rolleyes::D




It's sooooo frustrating listening to/reading all this stuff. Save us FCP you're our last hope.......

fish slapped

I received the same reply from Ms Mitchell as TonyS. :mad: They still don't get it , if a firearm is stolen it is NO LONGER LEGALY HELD as the crim has no permission to hold it, in my mind it is an illegally held firearm until it is returned to its licenced owner!

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Worse than that, not even Die Hard, more like US Marshals. So not even a box office hit...

Not to mind, New Jack City,Boyz in da Hood, Colors,and some other cringeworthy BS from Hollywood!:(

So I see the boul Olivia has been mass emailing us all with her replies.Just got mine.:rolleyes:
Good for a laugh .:rolleyes:
Anyone explain this to me?I sent emails again to both the email addys of the other three people at the finegael.ie websites and orichectas.ie wddys.Bar Mittchells all other three come back undeliverd??Anyone had the same??Could somone please post the correct email addys of Flanagan,Deasy amnd Kenny???:)

G17

There is no room for facts in this debate, shame on you all, if you have a Glock you're worse than Hitler, Hitler didn't have a Glock.

Makes sense right?

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not to mind, New Jack City,Boyz in da Hood, Colors,and some other cringeworthy BS from Hollywood!:(

So I see the boul Olivia has been mass emailing us all with her replies.Just got mine.:rolleyes:
Good for a laugh .:rolleyes:
Anyone explain this to me?I sent emails again to both the email addys of the other three people at the finegael.ie websites and orichectas.ie wddys.Bar Mittchells all other three come back undeliverd??Anyone had the same??Could somone please post the correct email addys of Flanagan,Deasy amnd Kenny???:)

I used the ones on the FG website, no problem. I think we're beyond this stage anyway somehow.

Now's the time to be emailing drivetime.

Jonty

dimebag249 wrote: »

What, make the offence against another person the crime, instead of posessing the means to commit the crime? You mean like banning assault instead of fists, banning rape instead of making it illegal to carry a concealed penis, or making it illegal to run people over instead of banning cars?

Revolutionary... it'd be too unprecedented though.

What I meant to say was that the gardai should go after the criminals instead of law abiding citizens.

rrpc

Never being one to ignore my own advice, just sent this to drive time:

I listened with interest to the news at one today and particularly the report from Paul Reynolds on the Garda Commissioner's appearance before the Public Accounts Committee.

Some statements attributed to the commissioner caught my attention:

1. "The commissioner is concerned at the number of firearms in particular handguns being licensed by the courts."

The courts do not license any firearms. Under judicial review the courts may instruct a Superintendent to review a license refusal where that refusal was deemed not to be in accordance with the law. It is always open to the Superintendent in such a situation to refuse the licence under proper legal grounds. In some cases this is made impossible by statements made by the Superintendents in refusing the application in the first place, for example one Superintendent refused a licence for a large calibre rifle, but stated that he would have no objection to the applicant having a larger calibre!

2. "He is precluded by a court decision to actually giving guidance to Superintendents as to how to deal with these issues when they come before them."

Again this is not strictly true. The court decided that as Superintendents were 'persona designata' in relation to firearms licensing, no blanket preconditions could be imposed on them by any other authority within the Garda Siochana or elsewhere.

In any event this issue has been superseded by the Criminal Justice Act 2006, section 31 of which allows the Garda Commissioner issue guidelines on Firearms licensing. Below is Section 31 in its entirety:

31.—(1) The Commissioner may, with the consent of the Minister, from time to time issue guidelines in relation to the practical application and operation of any provision of the Firearms Acts 1925 to 2006.

(2) In particular, the Commissioner may issue such guidelines in relation to applications for firearm certificates and authorisations under this Act and to the conditions which may be attached to those certificates and authorisations.

Clearly this provision gives the Garda Commissioner full authority to issue guidance to Superintendents.

Unfortunately although this provision has been passed by the Oireachtais, the Minister has yet to commence this provision and the Garda Commissioner has not yet issued the guidelines.

There are seven other sections of the Firearms Acts that have yet to be commenced, many of which would answer the Commissioners' anxieties on licensing issues. These sections are: 28, 29, 30, 32, 33, 38 and 40.

One of those sections (Section 33) if commenced would put the authority for licensing such pistols as Glocks directly in the hands of the Commissioner himself.

Yours etc.

chem

From the RTE news at one:

Is there any proof that licenced guns of this kind are falling into the hands of criminals?

Yes there is. 800 guns found by Gardai last year 70 of them found in Limerick. so the problem is that many legaly held firearms are finding there way into criminals hands. And we know that this has been a problem with shotguns for a long time. Every shot gun was once a licenced firearm many of them are stolen from farmhouses all over the country, then criminals get hold of them and saw off the barrels and use them in criminal acts.

WTF? reminds me of this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTjaYaORCKo

But I think she makes more scence!!

bunny shooter

I refer to Olivia's reply to two posters here where she referes to information recieved from Gardai about licences that should not have been issued. Maybe those who recieved those replies could ask for clarification on the following: a licence/s has/have been issued obviously by a Super, therefore, who is questioning the issue of the licence? Is it a junior rank with a vendetta? I believe Gardai are not entitled to approach TD's in their official capacity, namely as Gardai, without going through proper channels, so therefore, who is breaking the rules within the Gardai and striiring up ****e for us? Or are the Gardai making official approaches to certain political parties?

Our man in Havana

Some grossly misinformed people talking about our sport here.

bunny shooter

Bond-007 wrote: »

Some grossly misinformed people talking about our sport here.

Media campaign is working then :mad:

BornToKill

chem wrote: »

From the RTE news at one:

Is there any proof that licenced guns of this kind are falling into the hands of criminals?

Yes there is. 800 guns found by Gardai last year 70 of them found in Limerick.

From the Garda Annual Report 2007

Firearms and Explosives seized by Gardaí in 2007:

Firearms
Shotguns 206
Machine Guns 10
Rifles 59
Revolvers 28
Pistols/Airguns 293
Stun Guns 49
Crossbows 23
CS/CN Gas 6
Pen Guns 1
Replicas 73
Paintball Guns 4
Spear Guns 0
Silencers 7
Sights 8
Magazines 29
Humane Killers 1
Starting Pistols/Revolvers 83
Muskets 6
Total 886

Grizzly 45

True the saying;lies ,damn lies and statistics.:(
Alot of that list shouldnt even be considerd firearms.Or would be anywhere else in the EU.:(

fat-tony

Wonder what kind of a licence is required for a machine gun:eek:

Oh, wait... they're not licensable. You wouldn't think there might be some campaign of misinformation going on here, now

rrpc

That's the total number of firearms seized in 2007. These can't all possibly be licensed, never mind the machine guns, paintball markers, magazines and sights.

Look at the pistols/air pistols figure and then add in the revolvers, the starting pistols and the humane killers.

This totals to 405, when we look at the number of licensed pistols in the country at that time it was 1350.

A whopping quarter of them stolen?

Grizzly 45

Exactly..
Stolen or already out there in a pool of illegal arms which came about by illegal imports,stuff that was never registerd in the first place or was previously unliscensed and found many years later then kept or handed in..
ASFIK spear guns were never classified as firearms here ever.So why are they included???

Actually,just for comparison has anyone got the firearms amnesty figures from last year to hand???

Our man in Havana

Actually,just for comparison has anyone got the firearms amnesty figures from last year to hand???

Time to FOI the dept of justice on that me thinks.

rrpc

fat-tony wrote: »

Wonder what kind of a licence is required for a machine gun:eek:

Oh, wait... they're not licensable. You wouldn't think there might be some campaign of misinformation going on here, now

Maybe they're Garda ones, that's the only way they could be legal.

rrpc

OK, it appears that RTE journalists can't walk and chew gum at the same time:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1114/1226408634484.html

With the Department of Justice, he was reviewing legislation on the licensing of handguns; this follows the disclosure of figures showing that 1,800 handguns have been licensed in recent years, with large variations in the numbers licensed in different regions.

He said existing legislation was being examined to see whether it gave the commissioner authority to issue guidelines to regional superintendents with responsibility for gun licences. On the one hand gardaí were licensing Glock pistols, while other gardaí were seizing these guns from criminals.

Some 860 firearms were seized last year, he pointed out, and some of these were licensed guns which were stolen. Criminals were driving around looking for houses with gundogs and then robbing them in the knowledge that guns were inside.

Completely changes the emphasis from what was reported on the news at one yesterday.

My comments yesterday on journalism were far more accurate than I thought at the time :mad:

Rovi

Frank Brophy was on Morning Ireland (RTE Radio 1) earlier, refuting some of the sensationalist hysteria.
He did pretty well, I thought.

rrpc

Rovi wrote: »

Frank Brophy was on Morning Ireland (RTE Radio 1) earlier, refuting some of the sensationalist hysteria.
He did pretty well, I thought.

About what time?

Sparks

The Indo jumps right off the deep end into sillyness:

Fears legal guns ending up in hands of criminals
By Michael Brennan Political Correspondent
Friday November 14 2008

THE Garda Commissioner is powerless to stop the increase in the number of legally held handguns -- which could be ending up in the hands of criminals.

The number of licensed handguns has increased from just one in 2003 to 1,800 now due to a relaxation in the licensing rules.

Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy yesterday said he was unable to give guidelines on the issuing of firearms licences to his superintendents -- and the courts were often over- ruling their refusal decisions.

"On the one hand, we have to licence Glock pistols; and on the other hand, we are seeing known criminals using these Glock pistols to kill people," he said.

According to figures from the Department of Justice, there are also 53,000 rifles and 77,000 shotguns in private ownership -- giving an overall ratio of one gun for every 17 people in the country.

Cmsr Murphy told the Public Accounts committee that careless private gun owners were inadvertently providing some of the firearms being used by gangland criminals. "I'm appalled on occasions to see where four and five shotguns have been stolen from houses. People have been driving around to see if there are gun dogs outside the house and they know there are shotguns," he said.

During the Troubles it was very difficult for private individuals to get licences for handguns in excess of .22 calibre. But the situation has changed due the lifting of a government order and a more permissive attitude to gun licensing in the courts.

Stolen

Cmsr Murphy said that gardai had seized around 800 firearms last year, many of which had been imported illegally but also some which had been stolen from legal owners who stored them "under the table".

"A lot of shotguns used in criminality are stolen. It's incumbent on anybody who has a legal firearm to take precautions," he said.

He is in discussions with Justice Minister Dermot Ahern about whether legislation is needed to allow him to issue guidelines on weapons permits.

Fine Gael TD John Deasy, who got his colleague Jim O'Keeffe to bring up the issue at the committee, welcomed Cmsr Murphy's contribution.

- Michael Brennan Political Correspondent

Daft as a fscking brush.

Rovi

rrpc wrote: »

About what time?

Sometime between 7.30 and 8.00; my recollection is hazy

Sparks

Was texted by the ould fella about that alright, but missed it. His take wasn't as complimentary though, he thought frank fluffed it. Mind you, I've not heard it yet so I'm reserving judgement till I have something to judge, but it's interesting to hear how a non-firearms owner read it.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Was texted by the ould fella about that alright, but missed it. His take wasn't as complimentary though, he thought frank fluffed it. Mind you, I've not heard it yet so I'm reserving judgement till I have something to judge, but it's interesting to hear how a non-firearms owner read it.

Can't find it :mad:

Rovi

Sparks wrote: »

Was texted by the ould fella about that alright, but missed it. His take wasn't as complimentary though, he thought frank fluffed it.

Well... he probably could have done better I suppose, but I'm not going to be too critical as I know what it's like to be under the spotlight with a professional interviewer. I've done a little bit of that sort of thing in another area of my life, and it ain't easy.
As you've often said before, that's the sort of thing a properly trained and briefed PRO type person should be put forward for.

Rovi

rrpc wrote: »

Can't find it :mad:

I'm sure it'll appear here in due course-
http://www.rte.ie/news/morningireland/

rrpc

Rovi wrote: »

I'm sure it'll appear here in due course-
http://www.rte.ie/news/morningireland/

I've been rooting thrugh the stream for the last twenty minutes. Nothing coming up.

rrpc

Found it, 22 minutes in

rrpc

Not as bad as your father made out Sparks, although he accused the Commissioner of 'losing the plot' which is a bit harsh IMO. Especially since some of the reports misquoted him or paraphrased him incorrectly.