Armistice Day.

iceage

Today marks the 90th anniversary of Armistice Day. I'm amazed there has been little or no mention of it here. Forgive me Mods I didn't have time to run this but I'm curious how everybodys Anniversary was spent at that 11th Hour of the 11th day of the 11th month which marked the cessation of hostilities in Europe at the end of World War I.

Over 350,000 Irish men served during WW I, Over 30,000 lost their lives to the cause. And Yet I see nothing mentioned here....

bunny shooter

Subject is still a bit of a raw one here (in the 26 counties I mean) I reckon

".......Over 30,000 lost their lives to the cause....." the cause you refer to here I presume is "the freedom of small nations", a lot of people reckon they should have started with their own first. And before we go into it I know of the split in the Volunteers and the promise of Home Rule etc.

I agree though a nationwide minutes silence should be observed at the aforementioned time if for no other reason but to remind us that we are lucky to be neutral.

Chong

You maybe interested: dont ask why its in that forum though.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055417394

diverdriver

No surprise there. We still can't get over the old stigma. I note from the news that for the first time an Irish government minister placed a wreath at a ceremony in France. Great on the face of it. But isn't it shameful that it took so long for an Irish government to commemorate the dead of WW1 of all nations. Leaving aside our usual domestic squabbles.

diverdriver

".......Over 30,000 lost their lives to the cause....." the cause you refer to here I presume is "the freedom of small nations", a lot of people reckon they should have started with their own first.

If you read your history, you might have seen that is precisely why many joined up. All this conveniently forgotten after our so called freedom was gained. Freedom to be oppressed by our own, priests, politicians and police.

bunny shooter

diverdriver wrote: »

If you read your history, you might have seen that is precisely why many joined up. All this conveniently forgotten after our so called freedom was gained. Freedom to be oppressed by our own, priests, politicians and police.

I was editing my post as you wrote this I'd say :rolleyes:

I added this !

"And before we go into it I know of the split in the Volunteers and the promise of Home Rule etc."

But at least we are being oppressed by our own

iceage

BIll Thanks for that, I completely missed it...very fitting, was too busy looking here, and elsewhere I must admit.

Bunnyshooter: twasn't meant to inflame, as you said, Lest we forget. I have no doubt in my mind that there isn't a family countrywide ( 26 or otherwise) that wasn't affected by the call for WW I.

Diverdriver: thanks for that as well, let there be no infighting here, its a Military Forum. Let there be p*ss taking to beat the band but none of the other will do anygood.



I am so proud to see that it wasn't passed over with at least some compassion and comprehension of the lose to Ireland.



Iceage raises a glass.

bunny shooter

I have written extensively elsewhere on this subject and I don't mean Boards.ie. It is a very emotive subject. What has to be remembered is that no matter what the politics of the issue or those involved, they were Irish. They died fighting for what they believed in and who are we to decide for them that they died for nothing or the wrong reason or side.

Irish, Welsh, Scottish, English, American, Canadian, French, Russain, German, Italian and how many other nationalities died together in that war? And for what? For us to tell them it was for nothing?

Gone but not forgotten. They will never grow old.

iceage

On that I hope we can all agree. As well as this I believe thats it important that our younger generation (Yes I'm an ole bast*rd) don't forget about it.

The general gist I get from my own kids and their mates is yeah, yeah WWI-WWII it happened, Hitler topped himself, end of! No mention of the input from Irish troops in either war,(I haven't forgotten the Welsh,Scots,Canadian,French,Norweigan,Italian,etc) now thats a bit sad I think.

Bunnyshooter if I might be so bold, Pm me the details of your other stuff, if thats ok with you of course, if not, tell me to feck off! this is a military thread, I can take it!!:D

Spaceman Spiff

It just so happened that when I went to Ypres, our tour went to the Irish memorial in addition to the Canadian/Commonwealth ones.

The last is from the Vimy Ridge Memorial, the statue represents "Mother Canada" mourning the loss of her sons looking over the battlefield. The Vimy Memorial was actually protected by Hitler in WWII as it didn't celebrate any sort of victory, just mourned the loss.

bunny shooter

iceage wrote: »

Bunnyshooter if I might be so bold, Pm me the details of your other stuff, if thats ok with you of course, if not, tell me to feck off! this is a military thread, I can take it!!:D

PM sent

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Is this "celebration" or whatever, for BRITISH fallen soldiers specificaly? We should remember our soldiers, but not by wearing the red poppy.

iceage

In a word, No. Its in rememberance for those that fell, of ALL Nationalities. Irish, English, Welsh, Scot, French etc.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

"Remembrance Sunday is marked in the Republic by a ceremony in St Patrick’s Cathedral, Dublin, in which the President of Ireland attends."

Ok, amnistice day is called differant things in differant countries. In the UK it is called poppy day and well... is very british, therefore I can see a reluctance to be a part of this, if you are republican.

"In Northern Ireland, because the poppy honours soldiers of the British Armed Forces and because of The Troubles, it is worn primarily by members of the Unionist and the Irish Protestant community."

There is also The Irish National War Memorial Gardens in Dublin...

So in a way we do celebrate it (or whatever you want to call it) Just not like others. I do believe that there should be more done about it.

redbhoy1888

I can understand people wishing to honour the dead of all nations but my problem is WW1 was a conflict between several Imperial powers that had been brewing for years and also the result of an arms race that had to have an eventual outlet.And as usual the ordinary people of all nations paid the price.The seeds sown from the aftermath of WW1 led to WW2 and it never was the war to end all wars.

Zuiderzee

There is no need for a official state ceremony in the Republic marking Rememberance Sunday.

Since 1986 in the Republic the Sunday nearest July 11 is the National Day of Commemoration - Lá Cuimhneacháin Náisiúnta - covers all Irish war dead, in all conflicts.

Rememberance Sunday is a British and Commonwealth tradition and is divisive on this Island. If individuals or groups such as the British Legion wish to hold a ceromony in St. Pats - by all means, that is their choice.

The official July date in the Republic is designed to be inclusive of all traditions.

Lets not forget that Rememberance Sunday mainly commemorates World War I - one of the most tragic mistakes in history, industrialised slaughter primarily fought out between three empires run by first cousins.

Rememberance Sunday also commemorates British troops who died in service of Empire while supressing the Easter Rising as well as troops and auxilliaries who fought in the War of Independence.

The War of Independence had to be fought because the Empire had no intention of delivering freedom to smaller nations, or any other part of the Empire.

It was not until 1960 that Harold Macmillan finally accepted that No one has the right to say thus far to the freedom of a nation.

Ireland was the first part of the British Empire to achieve any measure of independence since 1776.

I know this is going off topic and Diver Driver, this is not to have a go at you - but I do take issue with the Freedom to be oppressed by our own, priests, politicians and police quip.

The priests people stupidly chose to listen to.

The politicians people elected, and you need to compare the one person one vote system in the Republic to the six counties.
Remember prior to the civil rights movement the electorial system in NI - unlike the rest of the UK - was allowed and designed to be one of the most corrupt, arcane and biased in Europe, not to mention gerrymandering to ensure total domination of just under half the local population.

And the Gardai? I take it you may have heard of B-Specials, or the way the RUC was structured prior to the peace process - a 97% Unionist police force in a juristiction that was about 45% nationalist?
That does not even begin to look at collusion between the RUC and Loyalist Paramilitaries, or the 6000ish UDR militia, or the number of British troops stationed in the provence.

- that was the alternative choice.

We have a commemoration in place that is not divisive, marks the waste of life in conflicts and respects all traditions, lets stick with that.

redbhoy1888

Well said indeed.Im afraid we in this country do this every year around this time and while individual people should follow their own conscience with regard to remembering the fallen,it shouldnt be forgotten that essentially people died in vast numbers for something so grotesque as the pride of Empires.

Tabnabs

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Rememberance Sunday is a British and Commonwealth tradition <snip>

Remembrance Sunday, the nearest Sunday to 11/11, being about all British troops in all conflicts current and past, whereas Armistice Day on the 11hr, 11th day, 11th month marks the end of the Great War (WW1) and is a remembrance of those lost in the horrific conditions in that war specifically.

Wrong thread amigo.

Fratton Fred

Since when was France part of the commonwealth

Zuiderzee

Dyflin wrote: »

Remembrance Sunday, the nearest Sunday to 11/11, being about all British troops in all conflicts current and past, whereas Armistice Day on the 11hr, 11th day, 11th month marks the end of the Great War (WW1) and is a remembrance of those lost in the horrific conditions in that war specifically.

Wrong thread amigo.

Comes down to the same thing, its all to do with the poppy appeal and the service. The event built around 11.11.11 is the nearest Sunday to that date to facillitate those rememberence ceremonies.
It allows one of the nearest living relatives of the Kaiser to lay a wreath down on a memorial to the glorious dead in London

Why should there be an official commemoration in the Republic specifically for what is another States comemoration when there is a day set aside already.

Irish people died on both sides of WWI, some fighting the empire, some in support of it.
Same thing could be said of the American civil war, the American war of independence, Spanish civil war, the Anglo French wars and the Boer war just to name a few.
I am sure there are some individuals that attend some kind of service in the US embassy or something of that nature, and that is their choice - there is no need for us to mark those seperatly?

Zuiderzee

Sorry, just want to add France is another state again, who have their own commemorations such as Bastille day and Liberation day.

On the Armstice day vs Rememberance Sunday point,
A lot of Irish ended up being shot in that particular war by people who are commemorated by the wearing of a poppy - simply because they did not be a part of an Empire.

Tabnabs

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Comes down to the same thing, its all to do with the poppy appeal and the service.

And that's where you are just wrong. Armistice day is a national holiday in a number of European countries, even in the US it was a national holiday until 1954 when they changed it to include all their veterans. It's clearly not the same thing at all. Remembering the Irish who died (and were wounded) during "the great war" no matter which army they fought for, is a noble and honourable act.

Besides, no one is taking about an "official" day except for you...

Zuiderzee

Whatever way you look at it, the entire poppy appeal is based around and associated with the 11th hour on the 11th of November, or the nearest Sunday to it. The commererations have since come to cover all conflicts in which British troops were involved.

I think, due to the sad history on this Island, its pretty senseless at best and insensitive at worst to do so in the Republic.
I hardly think there is anything noble about commemerating firing squads in Dublin, or a kid from Galway drowning in a shell hole in Flanders.

Of course it is tragic that in WWI millions were slaughterd stupidly, senselessly and for no good reason, it only led to the creation of a situation that led to the WWII and the Cold War.

But there is already a day set aside in the State for it specifically - for all traditions - to deal with the sensitivities of all who share this small piece of turf.

Why not use that day to show respect rather than this one?

concussion

Why don't we celebrate Christmas, Ramadan, Yom Kippur etc on a single day aswell....

Tabnabs

Because Irish people, myself included, wish to remember our relatives who fought and died in a senseless and brutal war. I have no doubt that a family of your "kid from Galway" would be deeply upset and outraged at your assertion that there is nothing noble about remembering his life. My own great, great, uncle died in Flanders and I certainly think it fit that his family honour his sacrifice, his two bothers thankfully came home, but both had wounds for the rest of their lives that bore evidence of their endeavours, but they too are in our thoughts on the 11th.

Again, no one in this thread only you is talking about wearing a poppy or linking it to the British Remembrance Sunday. Armistice day is to remember our war dead. Why are you insistent on dragging politics into it?

Duffers

It's a day for remembering all the Fallen, not remembering all the old baggage and **** from the last few centuries. Get a grip.


To that end, RIP the two Irish Bootnecks killed in Helmand yesterday.

Zuiderzee

Hang on a tic Dyflin - it was Bunny who suggested the minutes silence earlier in the thread across the state - and also, as he said this is a sensitive subject in this part of the Island.
As Iamxavier said - even though he feels more should be done about it - this is seen - regardless of what you say - as a very British thing, and is associated in the UK with the poppy appeal, and that is the nearest national, formal event for Armstice day to us.

Again, there are services you can attend if you so wish - this Sunday in Dublin, accross NI and as far as I know in Cork.

And there is a day set aside for this type of commemeration already, in a way partially to avoid these issues

I suppose we will have to disagree without being disagreeable.:rolleyes:

As for Yom Kippur, Ramadam and Xmass, great idea - but to get the Jews to eat the Ham, the Muslims to get sloshed on port like Granma for 30 days and nights - Ramadam being a period like Lent rather than a day - and the Christians to fast 25 hours as in Yom Kippur - the Jewish day of atonement - now that would take some doing

iceage

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1111/breaking43.htm

You'll notice a couple of familiar names in the article...A brave and wise decision to represent the 30,000 or so Irishmen that died.

Its all about building bridges, not walls these days people. An Irishman is an Irishman no matter which end of the country he happened to come from. Cast a thought for the families of the two lads killed on Wednesday in Astan. Agreed Duffers...rest in peace lads.

concussion

Zuiderzee wrote: »

As for Yom Kippur, Ramadam and Xmass, great idea - but to get the Jews to eat the Ham, the Muslims to get sloshed on port like Granma for 30 days and nights - Ramadam being a period like Lent rather than a day - and the Christians to fast 25 hours as in Yom Kippur - the Jewish day of atonement - now that would take some doing

My point being that if you're going to commemorate something, it should be on a relevant, significant day. The first world war is abstract enough as is, I'd prefer to remember those sacrifices on the day rather than in the middle of July.
As an aside, the Defence Forces remembers the fallen in November.

If you don't like the idea of an official commemoration or minutes silence - just ignore it...

Hagar

concussion wrote: »

I'd prefer to remember those sacrifices on the day rather than in the middle of July.

In fairness the Battle of the Somme started on 1st July 1916, the day on which the British suffered 57,470 casualties, including 19,240 dead—the bloodiest day in the history of the British Army, so it could be argued that the Irish commemoration is more timely as in "closer to the day" as you put it than any date in November.

concussion

Hagar wrote: »

In fairness the Battle of the Somme started on 1st July 1916, the day on which the British suffered 57,470 casualties, including 19,240 dead—the bloodiest day in the history of the British Army, so it could be argued that the Irish commemoration is more timely as in "closer to the day" as you put it than any date in November.

As much as I try, I can't make this reply sound inoffensive over text - but here goes. If you're going to remember the start of the Somme, what about all the other battles?? Just goes to show you can't please everybody - but I will be thinking of it next July 1!

Zuiderzee

To quote Duffers
" It's a day for remembering all the Fallen, not remembering all the old baggage and **** from the last few centuries. Get a grip"

Thats how I feel about the designated day in the Republic that was instigated in 1986.

The other stuff, rememberance sunday, armstice day, easter sunday etc.
Leave it behing, move on - build bridges, not walls.

Enough

minidazzler

I spent Armistice Day in total Irony, I spent the day firing Artillery Guns for my first time, on the anniversary of when the guns fired for their last time in WW1. I also let off my own first shot at 1107am which made me nice and happy.