Why isn't Baldonnel a commercial airport?

themarcus

I've been reading a few bits and pieces about baldonnel/casment(which do we call it?) and was wondering why it hasn't been discussed more as a competitor to Dublin airport since Tony Ryan in the '90s?

Before anyone says Dublin City can't support two airports please bear in mind that there are 5 airports operating on the west coast. London City airport serves about 4m (not 100% sure on this, but I think I'm more or less right) passengers per annum and seems to get by fine. Similarly Leeds Bradford serves 3m per annum. Dublin airport is currently serving 23m per annum. A competing airport would surely do just fine with Ryanair sure to jump at the opportunity.

I realise the runways are a little short, but surely buying up sufficient land to extend them wouldn't be prohibitive given the potential revenue?

I'm very curious to know what people think of this....

Fratton Fred

I am very surprised it hasn't been spoken of more regularly to be honest. Not only would it free up capacity at Dublin airport, but it would also make a huge difference to the traffic on the M50 and through Dublin.

Put a rail link into Heuston and Bob's your uncle as far as i can see.

Mr Benevolent

Firstly, Baldonnell is the arse end of nowhere. Can you imagine all of the airports passengers having to go through the city centre to get to it?

Secondly, having two large airports right beside each other is madness, especially when you realise how bad the IAA are at doing anything logical.

Thirdly it's a military base. They won't take kindly to sharing their airspace with lowly civilians.

But mainly it's just pettymindedness and a lack of a good transport system.

robinph

Baldonnell is no more in the arse end of nowhere than Dublin Airport is, both the same distance from the city centre and probably less effort for them to redirect an existing rail line to link up with a commercial aiport there. Baldonnell would certainly have easier access for the rest of the country as well due to it's location.

DOCARCH

Confab wrote: »

Firstly, Baldonnell is the arse end of nowhere. Can you imagine all of the airports passengers having to go through the city centre to get to it?

Ehhh.....not much different to Dublin Airport then!

At least the Laus will be (one of these days) will make it to Citywest - only a stones through away. As for the military base bit - a very underused miltary base. They should have moved all the Air Corps to Gormanstown and freed up Baldonnel for civil purposes.

Having said all that - I live under the flightpath to Baldonnel so no thanks!

Fratton Fred

There are also lots of "Military" airports in use as commecial airports. I'm not sure I would call Baldonnel military anyway, its not like they have a major stash of surface to air missiles there or anything.

The aircorp don't keep that many planes and helicoptors there, in fact, I'm surprised they can justify it's existance based on what few aircraft they do have. Opening it up to commercial use would greatly reduce the cost to the tax payer and maybe free up a bit of funds for the Air corp as well.

themarcus

Confab wrote: »

Firstly, Baldonnell is the arse end of nowhere. Can you imagine all of the airports passengers having to go through the city centre to get to it?

It really isn't the arse-end of nowhere. One of the benefits would be that people wouldn't have to go through the city if they were coming from the south side or from the south-east.

Confab wrote: »

Secondly, having two large airports right beside each other is madness, especially when you realise how bad the IAA are at doing anything logical.

Why is it madness? Population density is highest in Dublin - its where demand is. Two airports beside one another will compete - so Dublin airport will start to lose business if it doesn't shape up!
Re the IAA - how difficult could it be to stop them crashing into one another? Even if they are bad (I don't know myself) they couldn't hold it back too much

Confab wrote: »

Thirdly it's a military base. They won't take kindly to sharing their airspace with lowly civilians.

[sarcasm]I'm sure they can find somewhere else to launch their important missions...[/sarcasm]
Besides they need more funding for the army, so sale of this would be very nice for them.

Confab wrote: »

But mainly it's just pettymindedness and a lack of a good transport system.

Couldn't agree more...

DOCARCH

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There are also lots of "Military" airports in use as commecial airports. I'm not sure I would call Baldonnel military anyway, its not like they have a major stash of surface to air missiles there or anything.

The aircorp don't keep that many planes and helicoptors there, in fact, I'm surprised they can justify it's existance based on what few aircraft they do have. Opening it up to commercial use would greatly reduce the cost to the tax payer and maybe free up a bit of funds for the Air corp as well.

I actually think that one reason Baldonnel is still there is that it's a handy spot for the Government jet - don't have to deal with rabble, etc.

Another very good reason for not opening up Baldonnel is that the weather conditions there are more severe than Dublin AP - given it's proximity to the Dublin Mountains, it is prone to more severe winds and gusts than Dublin AP is. Dublin AP is surrounded for miles by flat land thus lessening wind gusts.

All you have to do is look at this http://www.met.ie/climate/30year-averages.asp and compare wind statistics for both Baldonnel and Dublin AP

themarcus

DOCARCH wrote: »

Having said all that - I live under the flightpath to Baldonnel so no thanks!

Not necessarily bad - do you like airplanes?

jmayo

Confab wrote: »

Firstly, Baldonnell is the arse end of nowhere. Can you imagine all of the airports passengers having to go through the city centre to get to it?

Secondly, having two large airports right beside each other is madness, especially when you realise how bad the IAA are at doing anything logical.

Thirdly it's a military base. They won't take kindly to sharing their airspace with lowly civilians.

But mainly it's just pettymindedness and a lack of a good transport system.

Do you know where Baldonnel is ?
Baldonnell is probably better suited to more people arriving from the south/southeast/southwest of the country and anyone from the south side of Dublin city/suburbs.
Just as easy probably to get to from Maynooth Westerly direction as well.
Dublin airport is only suited to people in the city North of the Liffey, people arriving from Cavan/Navan or those travelling down the M1.

Unless somebody built a railline to Dublin airport over the last couple of days, transport to Baldonnel is no better or worse than to Dublin airport.
Just divert a few buses and you have exactly the same links :rolleyes:

Sadly most of us that get to the airport get their by car.

It is not upto the IAA whether it would be turned into a commerical airport.
It would be a politcal decision.
Note former taoiseach was from de North side and it was not in his interest to take away from North Dublin to help Mary Harneys constituents :rolleyes:

The Air Corps would have to toe the line, they are still under the control of the government.

Fratton Fred

DOCARCH wrote: »

I actually think that one reason Baldonnel is still there is that it's a handy spot for the Government jet - don't have to deal with rabble, etc.

Another very good reason for not opening up Baldonnel is that the weather conditions there are more severe than Dublin AP - given it's proximity to the Dublin Mountains, it is prone to more severe winds and gusts than Dublin AP is. Dublin AP is surrounded for miles by flat land thus lessening wind gusts.

All you have to do is look at this http://www.met.ie/climate/30year-averages.asp and compare wind statistics for both Baldonnel and Dublin AP

That's a good point. I worked at Citywest for a couple of years and it does get pretty gusty up there.

It is probably too close to Dublin for Ryanair anyway, they would want to call it Carlow International or something:D

DOCARCH

themarcus wrote: »

Not necessarily bad - do you like airplanes?

I love airplanes.....but if I wanted to live under a flightpath, I'd move to Portmarnock (no offence intended - just fact)

Neworder79

Here's a map for the geographically challenged...

fireplace1982

Did someone say move the air corps to gormo? Ever been to gormo? Your chance of operating a GIV, a Lear Jet, Two CASAs, A beechcraft, 6 Aw139s, four Ec135s (including GASU), a defender, 8 PC9Ms, and 6 cessnas are slim to say the least.

Bal could be shared with civvie aircraft (aldergrove for example)but it would require major investment to build terminals, and airside facilities never mind extending the runways. If it were ever to happen, it would have happened prior to 'the crunch'

themarcus

fireplace1982 wrote: »

Did someone say move the air corps to gormo? Ever been to gormo?

Don't really mind where they relocate to. Apart from govt transport can't see why it matters where they operate from. Release them into the wild for all I care!

fireplace1982 wrote: »

Bal could be shared with civvie aircraft (aldergrove for example)but it would require major investment to build terminals, and airside facilities never mind extending the runways.

Low-cost airlines just need a runway with no sheep on it and a shed for passengers to wait in...
Take your point about the runways though - perhaps some sort of net for inbound and slingshot for outbound?

fireplace1982 wrote: »

If it were ever to happen, it would have happened prior to 'the crunch'

Land is cheap, construction workers unemployed - seems like a good way to stimulate growth...

fireplace1982

You are absolutely right, your argument is flawless, im convinced.

DOCARCH

fireplace1982 wrote: »

Did someone say move the air corps to gormo? Ever been to gormo? Your chance of operating a GIV, a Lear Jet, Two CASAs, A beechcraft, 6 Aw139s, four Ec135s (including GASU), a defender, 8 PC9Ms, and 6 cessnas are slim to say the least.

I know this will make a whole lot of sense and logic, but when I was in the Naval Reserve, I have had the misfortune to spend many days and a number of nights in Gormanstown! To describe it as a kip would be kind. However facilities can be upgraded, runways extended, etc.

All I'll say about Baldonnel again is the weather conditions, during the winter you would end up with a significant no. of flights diverted to Dublin AP.

DOCARCH

fireplace1982 wrote: »

Bal could be shared with civvie aircraft (aldergrove for example)but it would require major investment to build terminals, and airside facilities never mind extending the runways. If it were ever to happen, it would have happened prior to 'the crunch'

Just to add that AFAIK the runway at Baldonnel is actually long enough to take commercial jets, I have seen a no. of 737s (and I think a 757) on approach to Baldonnel (charter airlines - obvoiusly bringing soldiers home).

jackofalltrades

themarcus wrote:

I've been reading a few bits and pieces about baldonnel/casment(which do we call it?) and was wondering why it hasn't been discussed more as a competitor to Dublin airport since Tony Ryan in the '90s?

This topic was discussed here before, and the general consensus as that time was that it was a bad idea. Ryanair/MOL have ruled out using Baldonnel.

The runway isn't long enough, is orientated the wrong way (when you take into consideration the general direction the wind blows from) and its too close to mountains, which as DOCARCH has already said would lead to a lot of diversions to EIDW during the winter months.

EIDW is more than capable of handling the needs of the city for the foreseeable future when the second runway is built.

Steyr

Didnt EIME's runways get re-surfaced etc recently? I thought they were long enough as she can handle 737's and 757's.

donvito99

Confab wrote: »

Firstly, Baldonnell is the arse end of nowhere. Can you imagine all of the airports passengers having to go through the city centre to get to it?

Secondly, having two large airports right beside each other is madness, especially when you realise how bad the IAA are at doing anything logical.

Thirdly it's a military base. They won't take kindly to sharing their airspace with lowly civilians.

But mainly it's just pettymindedness and a lack of a good transport system.

It would be simple to build rail line to there compared to Metro North.

diverdriver

Low-cost airlines just need a runway with no sheep on it and a shed for passengers to wait in...

LOL:D Absolutely true. Baldonnel is wasted on the Air Corps. At the very least they should sell part of it to Mansfield and let him set up there instead of Weston. It would be handy for him with Citywest just there. The weather isn't the issue people seem to think it is. What may kill the idea more is the fact the the approach path passes over some of the most expensive real estate in Ireland. The southside of Dublin.

Maybe they'll do something when they finally wake up and disband the Air Corps. But don't hold your breath.

Elsa Lenihan

The whole Baldonnel as a public airport idea was looked at a few years ago & ruled out as due to the prevailing winds planes would mostly make their approach accross built up south dublin with their flightpath getting down to 500ft over the hospital at Tallaght! The noise, risk etc don't add up & if there is a need for a 2nd airport it should be green field site near the coast. Far safer and disturbing only the seagulls!

FiSe

Weston?

Leave the one and only IAC base alone and build a museum in there :rolleyes:

Tabnabs

FiSe wrote: »

Weston?

Now that is the back arse of nowhere.

(It's not even Dublin FFS :pac:)

Run_to_da_hills

The Minister of Defense has been requested to keep all commercial activity out of Baldonnel to prepare for the forthcoming NWO. Every major city will need a landing base for B52's C17A Globemaster III, Galaxy's, Antonov 125's and various commandeered civilian aircraft for both the deployment of international troops, authorities, military equipment and also the removal of dissidents to foreign FEMA camps.

Any civilian use of this airport could jeopardies the flow of emergency military operations. Baldonnel is also very suitable as a military airfield because of its close proximity to the network of interurban motorways which is far more important than any public transport network.

Similar requests will be made for Shannon and Knock after all the tumbleweed is cleared from the runways :eek:

Tabnabs

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Any civilian use of this airport could jeopardies the flow of emergency military operations. Baldonnel is also very suitable as a military airfield because of its close proximity to the network of interurban motorways which is far more important than any public transport network.

WTF? Dublin Airport is bigger, can handle larger aircraft, has much larger freight and marshalling areas, is not overlooked by the mountains and thereby open to artillery and EIDW is on two major motorways and has direct access to the largest port in the country.

Your NWO is not very bright is it?

Back to making tinfoil hats...

MementoMori

Just wondering if Baldoyle isn't massively suitable for commercial passenger travel, would there be any possibility of maybe shifting some/any other different types of flight operations from Dublin Airport to free up some space?

I was thinking maybe DHL/FedEx etc?

Run_to_da_hills

Dyflin wrote: »

WTF? Dublin Airport is bigger, can handle larger aircraft, has much larger freight and marshalling areas, is not overlooked by the mountains and thereby open to artillery and EIDW is on two major motorways and has direct access to the largest port in the country.

Your NWO is not very bright is it?

Back to making tinfoil hats...

They could commandeer Dublin as well.

diverdriver

Baldonnel could be controlled by mortar fire, rockets and snipers. Dublin is within easy reach of artillery from the hills. All dissidents will be sent to Leitrim.

Davidth88

Any civilian use of this airport could jeopardies the flow of emergency military operations.

There are loads of good examples where civilian and military aircraft mix perfectly well.

The best example I know is round the corner from where I grew up RAF Northolt . Its similarity with Baldonnel is obvious, 32 Sq fly from there and do a similar job to most of the Irish Air Corp , which to be frank 90% of it's work seems to be as a taxi service for the ' great and the good ' in the government , or the helicopter stuff for the Army, for which to be frank why don't they move the helicopters to the Curragh ?

It's not like you are seeing secret missions taking place , or the IAC have aircraft in a QRA waiting for an aircraft to enter Irish airspace .

Now as for why could't Baldonnel be a second Dublin Airport ....

There are good arguments for , for example the N/M7 is next to it, you could have a station almost instantly ( the railway is very close ) etc.

And some arguments against , the runway alignment etc I am not qualified to talk about ( not that I am qualified to talk about anything ) but seems feisable.