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should casino owners be allowed play in there own house

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    #62
    Goodluck2me
    Registered Users Posts: 5,404 ✭✭✭Goodluck2me


    daithijjj wrote: »
    Is etiquette irrelevant?...............failing that, im not in the habit of repeating myself in the same thread. The idea of open folding in this case, is completely hypothetical and situational. Lets just say you an I are friends and everyone at the table knows we are. Between us in the pot is mr. X. If i check the turn, mr x raises, you reraise AND I CALL. Mr x calls and we all see the river. At this point, it could be construed by other players at the table as you and me trying to 'squeeze' mr x out of the pot. I then, open fold. I never stated that this action was against the rules, i merely stated it would be a stupid move and could possibly be seen by other players, as you and me colluding. I also never said it was beneficial, as it would possibly/probably change the equation of how the hand is played out...........i hope thats clearer?.........if not, lets just agree to disagree on etiquette.
    Ok, that's fair enough. I just don;t agree that it's bad etiquette personally, fot the simple reason that things that are usually considered bad etiquette have a good reason for being so, like telling someone you can see their cards when they are obviously new, it's good to tell them as they are less likely to think everyone is out to fleece them or w/e.
    I don;t put much weight on that argument it was the only thing I could think of, but I believe the point remains salient.

    If noone can give me an example where open folding can actually create some sort of adv then let me know.
    The only one I could think of what that if you are Seat 1, your mate is seat 2 and Player X seat 3. You open fold when your mate has the nuts so it means that when he bets he is more likely to get a caller/bluff raise from player X with a marginal hand as he is closing the action.
    Even then I think it's highly remote this could happen, and could be doen in a number of ways.

    mormank wrote: »
    as for etiquette. well that is just your opinion, i do not think it is bad etiquette. it is far worse for somebody to get up and leave the table when he has cards and before it is his turn to fold, far worse imo and yet this happens in card rooms and big tournies all around the country on a daily basis!!
    Ever seen someone given a penalty for this?


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    #63
    daithijjj
    Registered Users Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭daithijjj


    H8GHOTI wrote: »
    No sorry, you've completely lost me now

    im not trying to be flippant or goad you, but, do you know what hypothetical means? i pressume you do so i cant imagine where i lost you.


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    #64
    daithijjj
    Registered Users Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭daithijjj


    mormank wrote: »
    not being allowed to open fold will not stop this kind of colluding anyway!! and if the above hand does aoccur what is the difference between open folding in turn and just mucking your cards at the showdown!! none i believe. so the colluding argument simply doesnt stand imo.

    as for etiquette. well that is just your opinion, i do not think it is bad etiquette. it is far worse for somebody to get up and leave the table when he has cards and before it is his turn to fold, far worse imo and yet this happens in card rooms and big tournies all around the country on a daily basis!!

    nobody has said that it will not stop colluding..........if you cant see HOW IT MIGHT BE INTERPRETED AS COLLUDING BY OTHER PLAYERS NOT NECESSARILY IN THE HAND, then we will have to just disagree i suppose.

    On your second point, im in total agreement with you. However, in card rooms ive played in in the UK, players have been politely asked by other players not to do it again, they do not receive a penalty and they never do it again. Afterall, a rookie player has to start somewhere and may not be up to speed with the house rules.


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    #65
    daithijjj
    Registered Users Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭daithijjj


    goodluck2me wrote: »
    Ok, that's fair enough. I just don;t agree that it's bad etiquette personally, fot the simple reason that things that are usually considered bad etiquette have a good reason for being so, like telling someone you can see their cards when they are obviously new, it's good to tell them as they are less likely to think everyone is out to fleece them or w/e.
    I don;t put much weight on that argument it was the only thing I could think of, but I believe the point remains salient.

    If noone can give me an example where open folding can actually create some sort of adv then let me know.
    The only one I could think of what that if you are Seat 1, your mate is seat 2 and Player X seat 3. You open fold when your mate has the nuts so it means that when he bets he is more likely to get a caller/bluff raise from player X with a marginal hand as he is closing the action.
    Even then I think it's highly remote this could happen, and could be doen in a number of ways.
    ok, we may have reached some common ground here. Perhaps BAD was too strong a word to use for open folding, there are alot of worse things you can do like you have pointed out. Essentially what we are discussing is the possible "grey area". Etiquette to some, can be passed off by others, thats why we all use a forum, to guage opinion of others. Someone said earlier that they asked in their casino and they said it was allowed, i can name 3/4 places in the uk where it is definitely frowned upon. House rules obviously vary.


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    #66
    mormank
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭mormank


    goodluck2me wrote: »

    Ever seen someone given a penalty for this?

    no. have you?

    i can see how it could be seen as colluding. let me ask you a question so dathjjj. if you were in a hand and on the river you did not want to show your cards, dodgy draw or whatever, so you just folded and i was TD and asked to see your cards because there was a chance ye were colluding would you be offended?

    Do you think open folders with only two players left in the pot should be forced to show their cards to the dealer or TD to help avoid collusion?


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    #67
    daithijjj
    Registered Users Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭daithijjj


    mormank wrote: »
    no. have you?

    i can see how it could be seen as colluding. let me ask you a question so dathjjj. if you were in a hand and on the river you did not want to show your cards, dodgy draw or whatever, so you just folded and i was TD and asked to see your cards because there was a chance ye were colluding would you be offended?

    Do you think open folders with only two players left in the pot should be forced to show their cards to the dealer or TD to help avoid collusion?

    thats an interesting question. I have no problem with open folding on the flop for example. In a heads up after the flop, in think its different, i dont see how it could be seen as collusion in a heads up pre flop to the river. I was just suggesting how it could be seen as collusion in a three way pot with successive raising to the river. In a cash game for example, i think at the heads up to the river, the player has every right to muck and not show. I gotta say, its a difficult one to answer. We all know that every players cards can be seen by everyone at the table if we reach the river online without folding.

    Would i be offended?.....yes probably. Would you be within your rights to ask?.... i think you would be. Would i be within my rights to fold without showing?......yes. But at that point, you would have set alarm bells ringing with the other players not in the hand, merely by asking the question you would have exploited the possibilty of collusion to the rest of the table without formal accusation, if you know what i mean. Im unlikely to collude after this, as you would have expressed a deeper interest in what went on in the hand, and i dont think i would want to meet anyone in the car park afterwards who thought i was colluding....;)


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    #68
    mormank
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭mormank


    well it equates to chip dumping. a seious offence in any tournament or cash game be it live or online. with two people left in a hand i.e me and a friend and he has few chips left so i open fold to give him some much needed chips...

    if it is a 3 way pot i can raise 3rd guys calls so my friend re raises to squeeze out the 'villain' then with any luck me and my friend are the only ones left in the pot to do with as we please..


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    #69
    daithijjj
    Registered Users Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭daithijjj


    mormank wrote: »
    well it equates to chip dumping. a seious offence in any tournament or cash game be it live or online. with two people left in a hand i.e me and a friend and he has few chips left so i open fold to give him some much needed chips...

    if it is a 3 way pot i can raise 3rd guys calls so my friend re raises to squeeze out the 'villain' then with any luck me and my friend are the only ones left in the pot to do with as we please..

    i dont disagree with anything you have said here, as i said in an earlier post, its entirely situational and in this hypothesis you are completely correct in what you say. Thats why i have maintained the opinion that open folding after the river with significant chips in the middle can be seen as collusion from many different angles.


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    #70
    Goodluck2me
    Registered Users Posts: 5,404 ✭✭✭Goodluck2me


    mormank wrote: »
    well it equates to chip dumping. a seious offence in any tournament or cash game be it live or online. with two people left in a hand i.e me and a friend and he has few chips left so i open fold to give him some much needed chips...

    if it is a 3 way pot i can raise 3rd guys calls so my friend re raises to squeeze out the 'villain' then with any luck me and my friend are the only ones left in the pot to do with as we please..

    thats not chip dumping thats bullwhipping or whipsawing. Unless of course the plan was to give away chips in the process of both.


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    #71
    mormank
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭mormank


    sorry joe but i have never heard the term bullwhipping before..


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    #72
    CelticPhantom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 218 ✭✭CelticPhantom


    mormank wrote: »
    sorry joe but i have never heard the term bullwhipping before..
    Then you haven't lived - but take it to the PI forum;)


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    #73
    poker--addict
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    early this week ...galway casino..blinds 1/2

    3 players limp (cash game)
    right of dealer raises to 26...dealer calls...3 others call...

    flop 10 6 4....rainbow...everyone checks around to dealer...
    he pushes all in for 120...which is about the pot....
    everyone folds...apart from casino owner....dealer turns over his JJ.
    Owner has A5

    how can he make this call...so many called preflop...id presume a few aces are now in rubbish pile?!?his 5..will need runner 5s..or runner runer for straight...and after emerged someone folded 55!

    has to but dealer on over pair...or A10 or even A6??no??and if not...he must presume his 5 is worthless and maybe 2 aces left...
    so 8percent chance(2aces left).??or 16 if all are left....

    river is an ace...owner flips over his A5.....outrageous.

    DODGEY...i dont see how any idiot could call with A5,whatever about raise as a bluff....i wouldnt play against this man in this venue.

    and not good for business...the player and his mates will find it tuff to return ESPECIALLY when there are other clubs in the area:mad:

    😎



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    #74
    OilBeefHooked2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 836 ✭✭✭OilBeefHooked2


    poker--addict wrote: »
    early this week ...galway casino..blinds 1/2

    3 players limp (cash game)
    right of dealer raises to 26...dealer calls...3 others call...

    flop 10 6 4....rainbow...everyone checks around to dealer...
    he pushes all in for 120...which is about the pot....
    everyone folds...apart from casino owner....dealer turns over his JJ.
    Owner has A5

    how can he make this call...so many called preflop...id presume a few aces are now in rubbish pile?!?his 5..will need runner 5s..or runner runer for straight...and after emerged someone folded 55!

    has to but dealer on over pair...or A10 or even A6??no??and if not...he must presume his 5 is worthless and maybe 2 aces left...
    so 8percent chance(2aces left).??or 16 if all are left....

    river is an ace...owner flips over his A5.....outrageous.

    DODGEY...i dont see how any idiot could call with A5,whatever about raise as a bluff....i wouldnt play against this man in this venue.

    and not good for business...the player and his mates will find it tuff to return ESPECIALLY when there are other clubs in the area:mad:
    Lmao omg:eek: live poker is rigged:pac:


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    #75
    poker--addict
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    u been sarcastic:p take a look at the fake deal on you tube for a start...thats very simple and with bit of practice would be hard to see...and thats just a simple simple way of cheating...theres several shuffles and ways of dealing like a crook if u want too:(bit of practice and slide the dealer an extra few percent at the end of the night...happy days....dont say it doesnt happen..

    😎



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    #76
    fitzcasino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭fitzcasino


    At the end of the day if you want to run a professional card room no owner, no dealers and no member of staff should be allowed play in the casino they work. I could be here all night explaining why, but everyone knows this is a conflict of interest, these a reason why in all the places I worked abroad this was not allowed. I would suggest that when the regulations are enforced this will stop happening.


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    #77
    Flushdraw
    Registered Users Posts: 6,187 ✭✭✭Flushdraw


    poker--addict wrote: »
    early this week ...galway casino..blinds 1/2

    3 players limp (cash game)
    right of dealer raises to 26...dealer calls...3 others call...

    flop 10 6 4....rainbow...everyone checks around to dealer...
    he pushes all in for 120...which is about the pot....
    everyone folds...apart from casino owner....dealer turns over his JJ.
    Owner has A5

    how can he make this call...so many called preflop...id presume a few aces are now in rubbish pile?!?his 5..will need runner 5s..or runner runer for straight...and after emerged someone folded 55!

    has to but dealer on over pair...or A10 or even A6??no??and if not...he must presume his 5 is worthless and maybe 2 aces left...
    so 8percent chance(2aces left).??or 16 if all are left....

    river is an ace...owner flips over his A5.....outrageous.

    DODGEY...i dont see how any idiot could call with A5,whatever about raise as a bluff....i wouldnt play against this man in this venue.

    and not good for business...the player and his mates will find it tuff to return ESPECIALLY when there are other clubs in the area:mad:

    This sounds like the best game ever in the history of pokers!


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    #78
    GKidd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 427 ✭✭GKidd


    poker--addict wrote: »
    early this week ...galway casino..blinds 1/2

    3 players limp (cash game)
    right of dealer raises to 26...dealer calls...3 others call...

    flop 10 6 4....rainbow...everyone checks around to dealer...
    he pushes all in for 120...which is about the pot....
    everyone folds...apart from casino owner....dealer turns over his JJ.
    Owner has A5

    how can he make this call...so many called preflop...id presume a few aces are now in rubbish pile?!?his 5..will need runner 5s..or runner runer for straight...and after emerged someone folded 55!

    has to but dealer on over pair...or A10 or even A6??no??and if not...he must presume his 5 is worthless and maybe 2 aces left...
    so 8percent chance(2aces left).??or 16 if all are left....

    river is an ace...owner flips over his A5.....outrageous.

    DODGEY...i dont see how any idiot could call with A5,whatever about raise as a bluff....i wouldnt play against this man in this venue.

    and not good for business...the player and his mates will find it tuff to return ESPECIALLY when there are other clubs in the area:mad:

    Maybe he was distracted watching himself on TV?? Cough,cough


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