Reports: Roy Keane has not travelled with Sunderland Squad

GuanYin

Xavi6 wrote: »

A club with 49,000 capacity stadium (the 5th largest in the league btw), a huge fanbase and a rich financial backer could hardly be classed as a small club in the same context as Hull, West Brom and Stoke or the likes of Watford, Swindon or Barnsley in the past.

Keane has simply done nothing out of the ordinary as a club like Sunderland should have no hassles surviving in the Premiership.

Well that is true, but put it like this.

I'm a foreigner who plays at a high level and knows the world game quite well.

Pretend I was in the right age/gender/skill bracket to play in top tier football, moving from the MLS (and before anyone comments, it has happened ).

If I was good enough to have a host of clubs looking at me, I would view Sunderland as a small club.

The interweb says the Stadium of Light is 48K capacity and that may be a big stadium in the EPL but when you compare the attendances of some other stadia world wide, it is a small stadium.

Attendance wise they are way off the top clubs, there are J-league and Primera División Argentina clubs with higher averages, not to mention the top two clubs in the socttish league.

So, big club? No. Financially sound club, yes.

Xavi6

ntlbell wrote: »

walk into a club who had lost 4/5 matches sitting at the bottom of the championship. turns the club around and wins the championship in the same year?

nothing manager, nothing.

Your hatred for keane is getting very boring.

Keane sent home from world cup. Xavi hates keane.

Stephen ireland turns his back on ireland tells lies, refuses to return to the squad and he's displayed as superman in your sig.

the hypocrisy is getting a bit sickening.

Bit hot under the collar there. Far be it for Royston to get criticised on your watch.

I never said he was a bad manager, I just said he hasn't done anything you wouldn't expect of a club like Sunderland. They've been a midtable club in the Premiership before Keane came in and that's where they are now. Progress? Not yet.

As for Ireland being in my sig, it's a tribute to his performances for City which have been outstanding. Fully deserved praise too.I'm not getting into another Keane/Ireland debate with you but imo their situations are different.

ntlbell

Xavi6 wrote: »

Bit hot under the collar there. Far be it for Royston to get criticised on your watch.

I never said he was a bad manager, I just said he hasn't done anything you wouldn't expect of a club like Sunderland. They've been a midtable club in the Premiership before Keane came in and that's where they are now. Progress? Not yet.

The fact they were a midtable club years ago with completley different team is absloutley irrelvant

when he took over they were a bottom of the championship team not a premiership team

now they're a mid table premiership so from when he took over of course it's progress.

if left sunderland in jan and went to leeds and over two years brought them back to the premiersip would that be progress?

ntlbell

Xavi6 wrote: »

As for Ireland being in my sig, it's a tribute to his performances for City which have been outstanding. Fully deserved praise too.I'm not getting into another Keane/Ireland debate with you but imo their situations are different.

Yes they're very different, one brought his team to the world cup

one couldn't be bothered to help his country get to a world cup

Xavi6

ntlbell wrote: »

The fact they were a midtable club years ago with completley different team is absloutley irrelvant

Which is exactly the point I made to Boggles when he started quoting their history.

when he took over they were a bottom of the championship team not a premiership team

He had a squad of underperforming players though and we all know what sort of boost New Manager Syndrome can give a team (See 'arry for a prime example). No arguments that he did very well to turn things around though.

now they're a mid table premiership so from when he took over of course it's progress.

I never said it wasn't. All i said is that it's nothing out of the ordinary and, I'll say again, given the resources available it was expected to survive in the Premiership.

if left sunderland in jan and went to leeds and over two years brought them back to the premiersip would that be progress?

Anyone who gets a club to the Premiership has made progress and I'm not arguing that. I just said he hasn't done anything you wouldn't expect. I fail to see how that's unreasonable. His achievements certainly aren't a patch on those of George Burley or Paul Jewell.

Xavi6

ntlbell wrote: »

Yes they're very different, one brought his team to the world cup

one couldn't be bothered to help his country get to a world cup

One walked out on his country when they needed him most.

The other was bullied out of it by 'team mates'.

I'm saying no more on that.

redout

Xavi6 wrote: »

They've been a midtable club in the Premiership before Keane came in and that's where they are now. Progress? Not yet.

ntlbell wrote: »

now they're a mid table premiership so from when he took over of course it's progress.

How can either of you say they are a midtable club. We are only a third the way through the season and yes they currently lie midtable but as I pointed out already 2 points is all that seperates 11th and 18th. A simple draw next weekend factored with other results going against them could easily drop them into the relegation zone. If they maintain midtable come may then I would agree with both of you but lets not jump the gun.

ntlbell

Xavi6 wrote: »

Anyone who gets a club to the Premiership has made progress and I'm not arguing that. I just said he hasn't done anything you wouldn't expect. I fail to see how that's unreasonable. His achievements certainly aren't a patch on those of George Burley or Paul Jewell.

Paul Jewell was managing 10 years before he got promotion to the premiership he had a huge amount of expirience before he got sacked sitting at the bottom of the championship with wed

comparing keane in only his 3rd season to jewell is redic.

ntlbell

redout wrote: »

How can either of you say they are a midtable club. We are only a third the way through the season and yes they currently lie midtable but as I pointed out already 2 points is all that seperates 11th and 18th. A simple draw next weekend factored with other results going against them could easily drop them into the relegation zone. If they maintain midtable come may then I would agree with both of you but lets not jump the gun.

because like you we don't have crystal balls we dont know what will happen next week/month year or the year after or the year after that

right now they're mid table that's all we can go on

copacetic

Xavi6 wrote: »

The other was bullied out of it by 'team mates'.

Or to put it another way, 'killed' his Granny, and couldn't take the inevitable shame at others pointing out his idiocy.

ntlbell

Xavi6 wrote: »

One walked out on his country when they needed him most.

The other was bullied out of it by 'team mates'.

I'm saying no more on that.

one was sent home.

one walked out because of a bit of banter....

he's a grown man if he can't handle a bit of craic he shouldn;t be in the game

redout

ntlbell wrote: »

because like you we don't have crystal balls we dont know what will happen next week/month year or the year after or the year after that

right now they're mid table that's all we can go on

Ok so lets all refer the Hull city as a top six team lads.

Pighead

Xavi6 wrote: »

Anyone who gets a club to the Premiership has made progress and I'm not arguing that.

Xavi6 wrote: »

Progress? Not yet.

ntlbell

redout wrote: »

Ok so lets all refer the Hull city as a top six team lads.

and today, you're right.

Xavi6

ntlbell wrote: »

Paul Jewell was managing 10 years before he got promotion to the premiership he had a huge amount of expirience before he got sacked sitting at the bottom of the championship with wed

comparing keane in only his 3rd season to jewell is redic.

Jewell took over as manager of Bradford in 1998 (his first job) and got promoted in 1999.

ntlbell

Pighead wrote: »

you dont miss a trick pig

Xavi6

Pighead wrote: »

As usual Pighead dismisses context to illustrate a point.

He's made progress in the sense that Sunderland are back in the Prem. He hasn't progressed them further than they ever were before.

ntlbell

Xavi6 wrote: »

Jewell took over as manager of Bradford in 1998 (his first job) and got promoted in 1999.

apoligies, so he did.

/me gets his coat

ntlbell

Xavi6 wrote: »

As usual Pighead dismisses context to illustrate a point.

He's made progress in the sense that Sunderland are back in the Prem. He hasn't progressed them further than they ever were before.

so raffa hasn't made any progress at liverpool so?

redout

ntlbell wrote: »

and today, you're right.

You are reffering to situations hypothetically which is not being realistic. Hull could potentially finish sixth but in no way should they be reffered to as a top six premiership club as of yet. If my memory serves me correct they have already started their dwindle down the table.

As for Sunderland I cannot say as a win, loss or draw can move them into a number of positions.

Xavi6

ntlbell wrote: »

so raffa hasn't made any progress at liverpool so?

In Europe most certainly.

In the league, up until this year, then no.

I'm basing that on results btw as that's what matters at the end of the day. I realise there are other mitigating factors such as squad building etc.

ntlbell

Xavi6 wrote: »

In Europe most certainly.

In the league, up until this year then no.

I'm basing that on results btw as that's what matters at the end of the day. I realise there are other mitigating factors such as squad building etc.

how did he make progress?

previous managers had won the eruopean cup?

he's only doing what others have done with liverpool before?

a treble? back to back european cups?

Pighead

Xavi6 wrote: »

As usual Pighead dismisses context to illustrate a point.

He's made progress in the sense that Sunderland are back in the Prem. He hasn't progressed them further than they ever were before.

I don't think i've dismissed context at all. Whatever way you look at it Roy Keane has made progress at Sunderland football club. They are in better shape now than when he took them over ie progress.

To compare Sunderland now to Sunderland of yesteryear doesn't really make sense as Roy Keane had nothing got to do with the old team. So, you saying he hasn't yet made progress compared to where they were is irrelevent.

Xavi6

ntlbell wrote: »

how did he make progress?

previous managers had won the eruopean cup?

he's only doing what others have done with liverpool before?

a treble? back to back european cups?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Liverpool hadn't won a European Cup since the 80s and hadn't come close. He took them back to that level. They progressed from Uefa Cup winners in 2001 to Champions League winners in 2006.

ntlbell

Xavi6 wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Liverpool hadn't won a European Cup since the 80s and hadn't come close. He took them back to that level. They progressed from Uefa Cup winners in 2001 to Champions League winners in 2006.

but your saying because sunderland has such a good fan base and have money it's expected and hasn't done anything special?

surley with liverpools fan base and money it would be expected?

sunderland were a mid table all keane did was bring them bakc to where they were

liverpool where european champions all raffa did was do what was done before?

so by your thinking no progress has been made? or at least no more than what would be expected of raffa cosnidering hwo big the club is and the money they have?

Xavi6

ntlbell wrote: »

so by your thinking no progress has been made? or at least no more than what would be expected of raffa cosnidering hwo big the club is and the money they have?

In a nutshell yes. Just ask a Liverpool fan. They expect to be challenging for the league every year!

Xavi6

copacetic wrote: »

Or to put it another way, 'killed' his Granny, and couldn't take the inevitable shame at others pointing out his idiocy.

Mocking his physical appearance had nothing to do with the granny incident and was just plain bullying.

Pighead

Xavi6 wrote: »

I never said he was a bad manager, I just said he hasn't done anything you wouldn't expect of a club like Sunderland. They've been a midtable club in the Premiership before Keane came in and that's where they are now. Progress? Not yet.

Xavi6 wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Liverpool hadn't won a European Cup since the 80s and hadn't come close. He took them back to that level. They progressed from Uefa Cup winners in 2001 to Champions League winners in 2006.

Quote A: Roy Keane HAS NOT made progress because he hasn't done anything you wouldn't expect of a club like Sunderland.

Quote B: Rafa Benitez HAS made progress even though he didn't do anything that you wouldn't expect of a club like Liverpool.

Can you not see the blatant inconsistencies of your arguments Xavi?

ntlbell

Xavi6 wrote: »

In a nutshell yes. Just ask a Liverpool fan. They expect to be challenging for the league every year!

so first your saying he has made progress now he hasn't?

i'm confused.

copacetic

Xavi6 wrote: »

Mocking his physical appearance had nothing to do with the granny incident and was just plain bullying.

again he brought in on himself for his idiocy in posting his worries and possibly medical solutions he was trying on his bebo site.

besides using they mocked my physical appearence as an excuse for quitting on your country is pretty sad.

Thank god every other player in the history of football managed to cope with the heartbreaking pain and carried on.

Xavi6

Pighead wrote: »

Quote A: Roy Keane HAS NOT made progress because he hasn't done anything you wouldn't expect of a club like Sunderland.

Quote B: Rafa Benitez HAS made progress even though he didn't do anything that you wouldn't expect of a club like Liverpool.

Can you not see the blatant inconsistencies of your arguments Xavi?

Liverpool have not progressed in the league under Rafa (prior to this season). I already said that.

They have done better in Europe under him.

ntlbell wrote: »

so first your saying he has made progress now he hasn't?

i'm confused.

They have progressed in Europe from Uefa Cup winners to Champions League winners.

They have not progressed in the league as they have yet to win a title and are still the third/fourth team in the league (again prior to this season).

Again, I already said that and don't see how it's confusing.

ntlbell

Xavi6 wrote: »

Liverpool have not progressed in the league under Rafa (prior to this season). I already said that.

They have done better in Europe under him.



They have progressed in Europe from Uefa Cup winners to Champions League winners.

They have not progressed in the league as they have yet to win a title and are still the third/fourth team in the league (again prior to this season).

Again, I already said that and don't see how it's confusing.

but your saying that when a club is big and has money and have done these things before that it's not progression it's just expected?

there for no progress?

OPENROAD

I wonder how Keane would have done with a club like Hull.

redout

ntlbell wrote: »

but your saying that when a club is big and has money and have done these things before that it's not progression it's just expected?

there for no progress?

You practically said the same thing on the last page ?

Xavi6

ntlbell wrote: »

but your saying that when a club is big and has money and have done these things before that it's not progression it's just expected?

there for no progress?

Pretty much.

Sunderland were expected to survive in the league.

Liverpool are expected to challenge for league titles.

Bradford weren't expected to survive a season in the Premiership.

Ipswich weren't expected to finish 4th.

I see a difference between the first two and the latter two.

Liverpool finishing 4th in 2008 is not progress considering they finished 2nd in 2002. Winning the title would be progress.

Pighead

Xavi6 wrote: »

Liverpool have not progressed in the league under Rafa (prior to this season). I already said that.

They have done better in Europe under him.

But by using your definition of progress, Liverpool had won the European Cup before so therefore this was to be expected which again when using your logic implies NO PROGRESS.

Xavi6

Pighead wrote: »

But by using your definition of progress, Liverpool had won the European Cup before so therefore this was to be expected which again when using your logic implies NO PROGRESS.

It's not 'relevant' progress then if you also want to be nicely black and white. Something that happened 25 years before is not in the equation.

You know as well as I do that going from Uefa Cup winners to Champions League winners in 5 years is progress.

Coming 4th in the league 6 years after coming 2nd is not progress.

One Cold Hand

This is seriously...

Xavi6

One Cold Hand wrote: »

This is seriously...

Indeed.

I'll sum up my original point and then leave it.

Keane has not done anything unexpected at Sunderland given the resources available to him and should not be receiving plaudits. If (and perhaps when) he makes them into a top 6/European qualifying side then shower him with sweet nothings.

Jazzy

hes made them a stable PL team. thats what he was there to do. he has spent a lot of money doing it tho, spose u have to these days

Loco

Xavi6 wrote: »

Keane has not done anything unexpected at Sunderland given the resources available to him and should not be receiving plaudits. If (and perhaps when) he makes them into a top 6/European qualifying side then shower him with sweet nothings.

He has done well, which was expected of him. Hes got them promoted, kept them in the premiership and is now vying for a better cup run & improved league position on last year. What more do you want?

You all keep bawling on about his resources. Theres plenty of clubs out there, with better resources than him, and you don't think he deserves any praise until hes in a top 6 / european side!!

You might aswell write off 3 quarters of the top flight managers. :rolleyes:

BaZmO*

Xavi, quick question. Why do you hate Keane so much?

Xavi6

BaZmO* wrote: »

Xavi, quick question. Why do you hate Keane so much?

A number of reasons -

1. He captained City's biggest rivals during their most successful period.

2. He was a dirty player who had no qualms about breaking up somebody. What he did to Haaland (a City player) was an absolute disgrace and the ban he received wasn't near long enough. It wasn't the first time he did it either.

3. The Saipan incident on which I support McCarthy.

4. Now as a manager he speaks on issues that don't concern him and is treated as some sort of go-to-God by a lot of the media who seem afraid of him. Personally I'd love to interview him.

No arguments that he was a great player but he is a horrible person and I've no time for him.

monkey9

Roy Keane has done a decent enough job at Sunderland, nothing special. It being his first job, it's a good start. But if it had been Phil Brown, Kevin Blackwell, Colin Caldwerwell etc, people wouldn't go on about it so much. Because it's Roy Keane, some people have his achievements down as messiah status.
It's already been quoted that he took over Sunderland after they had lost something like the first six games in the Championship and got them promoted the very same season. That really was a brilliant achievement. But Iain Dowie did a similar thing with Palace. Took them over when they took a hammering at Wolves or somewhere, can't remember what team hammered them. They would have been battling relegation, but they sacked the manager, brought Dowie in and were promoted that season. Now, in the years since, Dowie has hardly covered himself in glory.
You can argue that whereas Palace went straight back down the following season, Keane kept Sunderland up. But Keane has a lot of financial support at that club and i think what Xavi6 is getting at is with the amount of money he's been given to spend, what he's done in the Premiership is hardly remarkable.
I think he has squandered a lot of that money on average players, paying well over the odds. His transfer dealings have been extremely questionable, to say the least.
But, this his first job and it's a tough job. He'll no doubt be learning all the time. I think he can only improve. There's no way he'll be sacked. This is all a long term plan. Remember, this thread only started from a rumour that he hadn't travelled on the team coach. Apparently Keane doesn't always travel on the coach anyway.
I'm not convinced that Keane is going to be the World Class manager that a lot of people think he'll be. He may only reach Graeme Souness heights. Nobody really knows, not even Keane himself. But because it's Roy Keane, there'll always be this kind of debate.

Boggles

monkey9 wrote: »

It's already been quoted that he took over Sunderland after they had lost something like the first six games in the Championship and got them promoted the very same season.

Not Just promoted they won the league, in anyones book that is pretty damn impressive. Even more so when you consider Keane had never managed before.

The main problem people seem to have with Keane is his transfers. People in particular have a problem with Chopra, well to be fair to him he cost 4-5m, was in football limbo with Newcastle and his first full season with Cardiff was a 1 in 2 striker, Keane took a chance on him, he was only 23 and to be fair without his goals last season Sunderland would have been relegated, 4-5m seems a bargain.

But if ye are going to be fair and single out Chopra, at least mention Jones who cost pittance at 6 million and for me was one of the best signings last year in the premeirship.

How many other managers would have taken a chance on Cisse? 5 league goals, not overly impressive but 2 of them have been winners and 6 points.

Ferdinand, Bardsley, McCartney, Richardson, Marlbranque. - These are not shocking transfers.

Even Chimbonda who I detest, is on his game a quality footballer.

Sunderlands problem in the transfer market is status and geography. They are not going to attract the sought after big names, at least at this stage.

monkey9

Boggles wrote: »

Not Just promoted they won the league, in anyones book that is pretty damn impressive. Even more so when you consider Keane had never managed before.

The main problem people seem to have with Keane is his transfers. People in particular have a problem with Chopra, well to be fair to him he cost 4-5m, was in football limbo with Newcastle and his first full season with Cardiff was a 1 in 2 striker, Keane took a chance on him, he was only 23 and to be fair without his goals last season Sunderland would have been relegated, 4-5m seems a bargain.

But if ye are going to be fair and single out Chopra, at least mention Jones who cost pittance at 6 million and for me is one of the best strikers in the premiership.

How many other managers would have taken a chance on Cisse? 5 league goals, not overly impressive but 2 of them have been winners and 6 points.

Ferdinand, Bardsley, McCartney, Richardson, Marlbranque. - These are not shocking transfers.

Even Chimbonda who I detest, is on his a game a quality footballer.

Sunderlands problem in the transfer market is status and geography. They are not going to attract the sought after big names, at least at this stage.

Yeah, that season in the Championship was really impressive, i don't think anyone would dispute that.
He has made some decent signings, i just think he could have done better with the money he has been given, which is a lot in fairness. Especially for a club just promoted . But it is his first job in management, it'll take time.
I'm not knocking Keane, i think he's done a fairly decent job at Sunderland and he's been a good appointment.
I'm just not gonna go into hyperbole about him simply because he's Roy Keane. Credit where credit is due and nothing else.

Boggles

I don't think we can even gauge him this season, the league is gone mad, he could finish 5th-6th or be relegated, 9 points at the moment serperate 16 teams. :eek: