Ireland v New Zealand; Croke Park 5.15pm (pre/during/post discussion thread)

Stev_o

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

This is an absolute joke. He made two excellent breaks, turned over ball, excellent offloading in the tackles, did a lovely kick and chase and regained ball, defensively he made not one error, he did excellent decoy running allowing Fitz into space, did 2 excellent tatical kicks.

Honestly to say BOD did feck all is completely untrue.

Not really Fitz did alot of the decent work while BOD stood around unanimously there was never at one point you could of said that yeah they have the upper hand on their opposite numbers, they were outplayed and BOD more so.

I said it near the beginning you dont beat Nz by GIVING THEM POSSESSION its pure suicide and yet the captain still thought it was best to keep kicking and not say anything to ROG about cut down on the kicking. How much possession did Ireland have today? And how much possession was giving to New Zealand by us going time and time again to the boot

soloparadox

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

This is an absolute joke. He made two excellent breaks, turned over ball, excellent offloading in the tackles, did a lovely kick and chase and regained ball, defensively he made not one error, he did excellent decoy running allowing Fitz into space, did 2 excellent tatical kicks.

Honestly to say BOD did feck all is completely untrue.

I agree his best game in the green for a while. Maybe tweaking the center pairing by putting Fitz on the outside and O'Driscoll on the inside would work better?

Magnum

donvito99 wrote: »

Quinlan should be dropped, then shot.

I agree..................

RugbyFanatic

My Post match Analysis :

ROG unfortunately had a poor game. His kicking was diabolical and his tackling at times was a complete joke getting brushed aside like some kind of fly. He made a few good passes but overall he should be extremely disappointed.

Quinlan shouldn't start against the Argies the fact is he gives away far too many stupid penalties and didn't contribute much at all today. I counted THREE times we were in their 22 and Quinlan gave away a penalty which ended with NZ in our 22. Opportunity lost.

Wallace had a superb game today. Really did some great running

Best had an absolute shocker IMO. Horrible throwing, Flannery needs to start.

Quite pleased with TO'L

Our centre partnership was excellent today it seems BOD and Fitz is a solid combination.

Kearney, Dempsey, Bowe had quiet games but then again they didn't really get the opportunity to do much.

Thought DOC and Heaslip were very quiet altogether though I do recall Heaslip turning over some ball other than that the two were missing.

APM

eolhc wrote: »

Thought they looked a bit funny

they've done this at quite a few events now and the fact we noticed and are talking about it proved that their advertising worked!

sioda

Dempsey was anonymous Kearney or earls to start next week.

Quinlans yeah did give away a few penalties but did give a bit of agression when needed.

Best awful just plain awful Flannery was needed to give a bit of punch

ROG had some good running but kicking dodgy at best except that penalty

Scrum wise we held up well John Hayes IMO looking the best he has been for years

All in all NZ were crap though

ironingbored

I thought ireland played relatively well for the first 39 minutes until (like France 2007) we lost concentration and allowed the AB's in for a try. I don't really blame Bowe although I think a penalty try should suffice in those situations.

Am I the only one who thought the game turned in the 53rd minute when POC (very good game) was lying on the ground and they took a lineout? How many times are scrums and lineouts put on hold while a player is given treatment? Then Rokocoko waltz's past him ( I accept that the defence was all fowards and may not have made a difference). What may have made a difference is MOK coming on and doing something in the lineout.

I am sick to death of hearing Rog this Rog that...In the big games (and I mean really big international games) for ireland he has bottled it time and time again. As soon as he had a kick blocked after 30 seconds I knew he was going to be **** again.

If I had been a team mate of Quilan's I'd have grabbed his throat for some of the penos he gave away in good positions.

Wallace was outstanding except for two unforgiveable passes in great positions.

I thought BOD was brilliant. Shuddering tackle on carter early on and an amazing steal from two all blacks just outside his own 22 when NZ were threatening. Great offloads as well. Fitzgerald was immense in defence and represented our only threat going forward.

Dempsey poor, Kearney has to start at 15 from now on. I'd also have earls ahead of Bowe.

Last but not least, disgusted with the use of replacements. No changes until too late to do anything. O'Callaghan anonymous. Best didnt play well.

jam_on_toast

Stev_o wrote: »

Backline failed to impressed im nowhere near convinced that this Fitz Bod centreship will work

They played alright. O'Leary was good too. The real problem here is ROG, he was shocking. His complete inability to front up and play well in big matches for Ireland is getting so old. I cant understand why he keeps on kicking the ball away. To hear Pope say he was the best 10 in the NH at the start nearly made me choke on my dinner. We need a new option at 10 so so so badly.

We also need to play a real 7, yes wallace was good and deserves his place in the team, but at 6 or 8.

Dempsey has no place in an ireland shirt anymore, kearney to 15 and earls to the wing.

Buckley has no place in the 22, healy on the other hand could make a real impression from the bench.

All in all, that was an incredibly frustrating match to watch.

GreeBo

Same problem as Scotland had, aimless kicking with no real effort to chase. A kick is only as good as the chase.

Some terrible decision making also, quick balls into trouble, etc.

RugbyFanatic

On the basis of today's game this is what I want to see next week.

1.Horan
2.Flannery
3.Hayes
4.MOK
5.POC
6.Ferris
7.Wallace
8.Heaslip
9.TO'L
10.O'Gara
11.Earls
12.Fitz
13.BOD
14.Bowe
15.Kearney

Leaving Dempsey out not because he played poorly (in fairness he didn't do anything wrong) but because I tend to agree that although we are very good defensively we have SERIOUS trouble creating attacking opportunities.

Ferris ahead of Quinlan is pretty self explanatory as is Flannery over Best. DOC has had two ridiculously quiet games in a row now its time to bring in MOK and see what he can do he wont have to do much to do better than DOC has done.

GreeBo

and how many times was O'Gara knocked back 2m off the ball attempting to tackle?

jam_on_toast

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

On the basis of today's game this is what I want to see next week.

1.Horan
2.Flannery
3.Hayes
4.MOK
5.POC
6.Ferris
7.Wallace
8.Heaslip
9.TO'L
10.O'Gara
11.Earls
12.Fitz
13.BOD
14.Bowe
15.Kearney

Would have the exact same team except for jennings at 7, then pick two from healsip, ferris and wallace. The left over will make a great impact sub.

shabouwcaw

and how many times was O'Gara knocked back 2m off the ball attempting to tackle?

twice. you can bash ROG all you want, but theres no one else. who would replace him? paddy wallace? dont make me laugh. as for him choking, he has never once choked for munster and only choked in the world cup for ireland. the block after 30 seconds was unfortunate, but i think if i hadnt been for the penalty try he would have got his rhythm going.. he was looking promising last 10 min of the 1st half.

BOD completely blew my expectations today, never really rated him as a player last few years, but he played as well as he could today. pity he didnt step into touch before half time though.

earls should have been on, he's the in form player of the moment. DOC wasnt really anonymous, made some good takes from the line out and tackled well. himself and POC play well together. also if o'connell is missing for the next match with whatever knock he picked up, it might be unwise to switch the both of them.

quinlan was poor, i would have subbed him off as soon as he was cautioned.

unlucky for bowe, should have tried to ground it... maybe things would have turned out differantly.

jayteecork

Marcus Horan cost us a certain try. Again.

Nothing new in this performance I'm afraid.

ironingbored

shabouwcaw wrote: »

twice. you can bash ROG all you want, but theres no one else. who would replace him? paddy wallace? dont make me laugh. as for him choking, he has never once choked for munster and only choked in the world cup for ireland. the block after 30 seconds was unfortunate, but i think if i hadnt been for the penalty try he would have got his rhythm going.. he was looking promising last 10 min of the 1st half.

He was shocking today but agree there is no one else.

shabouwcaw wrote: »

BOD completely blew my expectations today, never really rated him as a player last few years, but he played as well as he could today. pity he didnt step into touch before half time though.

BOD has always, and I mean always, been Ireland's man of the match in big international games. He was the only Irish player to step up to the plate in the WC (and this is when he wasn't fully fit).

jam_on_toast

shabouwcaw wrote: »

twice. you can bash ROG all you want, but theres no one else. who would replace him? paddy wallace? dont make me laugh. as for him choking, he has never once choked for munster and only choked in the world cup for ireland. the block after 30 seconds was unfortunate, but i think if i hadnt been for the penalty try he would have got his rhythm going.. he was looking promising last 10 min of the 1st half.

fair enough about wallace, i agree on that. i am not questioning his munster form, my problem is he cannot carry it onto the international stage.

There is no excuse however about not having sexton or keatley on the bench. They may not have experience but there is only one way to get it and that is by playing them. IMO we are in a desperate state in the 10 position, and a bold move needs to be made if we are to improve. Not saying drop him, but definitely try one of the above off the bench.

On a side issue, does anybody know when was the last time ireland started a match of note (ie 6nations or SH intl) without either ROG or Humphreys at 10?

Noopti

O'Gara needs to do something to sort out his tackling. Nonu was swatting him away like a piece of dust. Seriously, the NZ press were highlighting his defensive inabilities pre-match and they were on the button. Of course, he is our best option, but if he could just shore up his defensive abilities he would be a much better 10.

Earls, Ferris & Flannery should start. TOL should also start again, I thought he had a good game, especially for a 1st cap....against the All Blacks.

Our intensity was great in the first half. We were killed by two events:
1. Penalty Try/ Yellow Card
2. O'Connell getting injured and being left on the pitch

Again though, I do think we should have the beating of Argentina.

shabouwcaw

playing sexton or keatley in out half with dan carter on the pitch would be suicide.

BOD has always, and I mean always, been Ireland's man of the match in big international games. He was the only Irish player to step up to the plate in the WC (and this is when he wasn't fully fit).

flashes of brilliance admittedly, but not consistently. he has recovered his pace though, which is nice to see..

O'Gara needs to do something to sort out his tackling.

yeah he is a shocking tackler. was coming in too high.


actually a point i left out of my first post. despite being an avid munster fan and having massive respect for kidney, i think he made some mistakes today. ireland were scrappy and unsettled and were obviously not mentally set up for the match.. lots of mistakes etc.

also leaving o'connell on, and making the subsitututions so late, when they could do little.

ToL played well. quite a find.

Stev_o

Noopti wrote: »

O'Gara needs to do something to sort out his tackling. Nonu was swatting him away like a piece of dust. Seriously, the NZ press were highlighting his defensive inabilities pre-match and they were on the button. Of course, he is our best option, but if he could just shore up his defensive abilities he would be a much better 10.

Earls, Ferris & Flannery should start. TOL should also start again, I thought he had a good game, especially for a 1st cap....against the All Blacks.

Our intensity was great in the first half. We were killed by two events:
1. Penalty Try/ Yellow Card
2. O'Connell getting injured and being left on the pitch

Again though, I do think we should have the beating of Argentina.

I think we were more killed by our inability to get over the gain line while New Zealand managed it with ease and even worse our tackling ability was shockingly bad Nz drove us back numerous times when we were attacking how many times did we do that to them.

zAbbo

What do we take out of the game?

1. TOL at SH
2. Luke and Bod look good in the centre
3. Kearney needs to play FB
4. Quinlan is a total liability, bring in Ferris

soloparadox

shabouwcaw wrote: »

flashes of brilliance admittedly, but not consistently. he has recovered his pace though, which is nice to see..

This is the one aspect of his game that he still lacks imo. Past the first 10 meters its like watching a prop. Seeing him chase the chip through against Canada was borderline embarrassing. Aside from this he was great however, very consistent in almost every part of his game.

Noopti

Stev_o wrote: »

I think we were more killed by our inability to get over the gain line while New Zealand managed it with ease and even worse our tackling ability was shockingly bad Nz drove us back numerous times when we were attacking how many times did we do that to them.

True, but our defense was doing quite well and we were in the game until those two events killed us. We did look very flat in attack though, especially when you saw NZ get the ball and being so incisive.

Noopti

zAbbo wrote: »

What do we take out of the game?

1. TOL at SH
2. Luke and Bod look good in the centre
3. Kearney needs to play FB
4. Quinlan is a total liability, bring in Ferris

Agree 90%. I wouldn't write off Quinlan yet though, he is still on form with Munster. He lives on the edge as a player, and I wouldn't want that to change that. Just tonight I think the occasion and the intensity drove him over the line. I would put in on the bench for the next game.

jam_on_toast

shabouwcaw wrote: »

playing sexton or keatley in out half with dan carter on the pitch would be suicide.

nobody suggested they should. having them on the bench would be good tho, wallace is useless at 10. at least have somebody who is a natural 10 on the bench.

newmills

Stev_o wrote: »

I think we were more killed by our inability to get over the gain line while New Zealand managed it with ease and even worse our tackling ability was shockingly bad Nz drove us back numerous times when we were attacking how many times did we do that to them.

Couldn't agree anymore. Evry NZ player made ground when they attacked with the ball in hand. They are so strong that it's not funny. I really don't kno how we could have beaten them today. We can all talk about who should have played or who shouldn't have played but I doubt that even with 30 players on the field we still would have been beaten!!:D:D

il gatto

That was dire. Hayes and Kearney were decent. Dempsey was o.k. but posed no threat. BOD was ordinary. I thought the standout performers were O'Leary and Fitz. O'Leary did mosy stuff right and considering it's his first real cap and against the ABs at that, very impressive. Fitz was a threat with the ball in hand, mainly because he actually tried to do something rather than being a barnstorming performance. His defence was inconsistant. Few lovely tackles and got handed off a few times.
Mention for Wallace who was excellent in the first half, but seemed to vanish from the game later on.
Replacements hadn't enough time to shine and the game was f@cked by then anyway. Deja vu.

bleg

zAbbo wrote: »

What do we take out of the game?

1. TOL at SH
2. Luke and Bod look good in the centre
3. Kearney needs to play FB
4. Quinlan is a total liability, bring in Ferris

5. how can the bull keep going?

o leary was our second best player after wallace in my opinion

anonymous_joe

Better team won...

Wallace was great, but was the wrong player.

RoG... Oh dear. I think my little sister would have offered more muscle...

Fitzgerald and BoD looked like a decent centre pairing, shame they saw next to no of the little possession we had.

Girven Dempsey didn't have a great game. I like him a lot, but he wasn't great. Geordan Murphy anyone?

Why was Paul O'Connell not taken off? He was the direct cause of a try.

Was it a yellow card?

Stev_o

Bring in Johne Murphy for god sake

Punchbowl

I'd give Wallace his chance next week. I'd also drop Bowe for Horgan, cos I honestly don't think we can afford to be without him. Keep TOL in for experience sake, but I wouldn't drop Dempsey or Kearney as they will see a lot more ball next week and we'll have a better idea of where they're at..