Ireland v New Zealand; Croke Park 5.15pm (pre/during/post discussion thread)

anonymous_joe

Stev_o wrote: »

Bring in Johne Murphy for god sake

Solution to all our problems. :P

Nah I'd like to see him. He's done enough to earn a place.

I'm absolutely gutted about that result tbh.

dreamer_ire

Gutted after that game. I thought coming up to half time we were going to stay with them and it was gonna come down to the last 20 mins. Didn't rate the ref at all, in fact he missed so much he could have been watching a different game. One of the only right important calls he made in the first half was the penalty try! Sods law!

TOL was so much better tonight than I was expecting for his first real cap. ROG was woeful but we are knackered because we have no one else and desperately need to find at least one real replacement before we can consider ourselves serious 6N contenders. Quinny was just too much tonight and Ferris should have come on earlier, mind you you could argue that BOD/POC should have told Quinny to cool it down. IMO indiscipline lost us this game tonight... or at least didn't allow us to get close.

Thought the volume in Croker was great, the loudest I think I've ever heard outside of Cardiff with the roof closed.

Serenity Now!

Punchbowl wrote: »

I'd give Wallace his chance next week. I'd also drop Bowe for Horgan, cos I honestly don't think we can afford to be without him. Keep TOL in for experience sake, but I wouldn't drop Dempsey or Kearney as they will see a lot more ball next week and we'll have a better idea of where they're at..

The team won't change next week apart from at fullback.

ivan087

i know we were playing the ABs, but it was depressing. we lack real imagination. every time we had the ball we either kicked it up the middle of the park so that the ABs could run at us. or we kicked it out to touch for the AB to win the lineout and get possession.

it was obvious this tactic was never going to work. we needed to keep the ball and give them some work to do.

it could have been a lot lot worse yesterday. we have some great players. i really thought we could have given the ABs a game yesterday.

we just need to keep the bloody ball. its that simple. if we have it we can damage teams, we have enough talent. quit kicking it every time we get it.:mad:

Gelio

At 3 3 i was thinking anything could happen. But no a awful preformance from rog and a lack of imagination stoped us in the end. I thought Fitz played very well. Ah well we will have more chances to beat them.

Micky Dolenz

Would it be a good idea to try and play them near the end of our season? say after the 6 nations?. Then if they hammer us we know where we stand.

zAbbo

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Would it be a good idea to try and play them near the end of our season? say after the 6 nations?. Then if they hammer us we know where we stand.

We normally play them during Summer tours, in NZ, came close recently as well.

corny

ivan087 wrote: »

i know we were playing the ABs, but it was depressing. we lack real imagination. every time we had the ball we either kicked it up the middle of the park so that the ABs could run at us. or we kicked it out to touch for the AB to win the lineout and get possession.

it was obvious this tactic was never going to work. we needed to keep the ball and give them some work to do.

it could have been a lot lot worse yesterday. we have some great players. i really thought we could have given the ABs a game yesterday.

we just need to keep the bloody ball. its that simple. if we have it we can damage teams, we have enough talent. quit kicking it every time we get it.:mad:

In fairness it is hard to build phases against New Zealand when every time you take the ball into contact you're knocked 5 metres backwards! If we take it wide McCaw and Co are invariably first to the breakdown too and we all know what the NZ'ers do with good counter attack ball. Physically we can't compete with them and that hinders any gameplan really. Not to mention a referree who seemed more interested in the scenary than watching the game. He strolled around not a care in the world and relied on his touch judges and TMO to ref the game or not as the case may be. (they missed loads)

Heroditas

shabouwcaw wrote: »

as for him choking, he has never once choked for munster and only choked in the world cup for ireland.

He's had horror shows for Munster on a couple of occasions and also for Ireland - not just in the RWC.

Shelflife

as long as we let ogara play nearly the full 80mins we will never get a replacement, rog is the no1 OH without doubt , but.... he is not in fear of his place and therefore is operating in a comfort zone, im not a fan of wallace as he is not playing consistantly at OH for ulster but i think rog needs a shoe up the arse and yesterdays match would warrant him being dropped.

we need to face up to the fact that if rog plays badly then ire play badly, we may need to take some short term medicine in order to get better in the long term.

Sandwich

Sorry if I missed the answer elsewhere in the thread......

Was at the game yesterday and have yet to have a proper look at the penalty try on TV. Is it clear from Bowe's action, or has he said since that it was his aim to knock the ball out of play? If is intention was to nudge the ball away from McCaw - even if the ball went out of play - then his action was fair and it shouldnt have been a try. (just curious, not looking for excuses. clearly the superior team well deserved their win)

thehighground

Shelflife wrote: »

as long as we let ogara play nearly the full 80mins we will never get a replacement, rog is the no1 OH without doubt , but.... he is not in fear of his place and therefore is operating in a comfort zone, im not a fan of wallace as he is not playing consistantly at OH for ulster but i think rog needs a shoe up the arse and yesterdays match would warrant him being dropped.

we need to face up to the fact that if rog plays badly then ire play badly, we may need to take some short term medicine in order to get better in the long term.

We have no other option but to play O'Gara for 80 min. Bad and all as he is, the other Irish qualified O/Hs can't get a game for their province/club (bar Keatley now, who has probably played 10 professional games in his life).

Your comment about O'Gara being in a comfort zone is laughable. You think he wants to go out and play badly for Ireland?

It might help him if there was a bit of unpredicability around the Irish game. I'd look a little more closely at the type of game the backs in Munster play - particularly the centres to get the best out of O'Gara (fantastic players that BOD is, and Luke Fitzgerald will be - neither of them have any sort of a kicking game to keep opposition backrow guessing and oppo. can head straight for O'Gara EVERY time).

jayteecork

Awful player ratings in today's Indo. The entire team got a 6 except for Rob Kearney who got a 7.

Shelflife

Your comment about O'Gara being in a comfort zone is laughable. You think he wants to go out and play badly for Ireland?

I never suggested that, but it stands to reason that the fact that he has no competition would not keep him on his toes as much as someone who has competition for their place.

RugbyFanatic

jayteecork wrote: »

Awful player ratings in today's Indo. The entire team got a 6 except for Rob Kearney who got a 7.

What a joke my ratings would be :

Horan : 3 - Cost us a certain try
Best : 2 - Terrible throwing and did very little around the pitch
Hayes : 6 - Average game for Hayes
DOC : 4 - Contributed next to nothing
POC : 7 - Fairly solid game for POC, shame he got injured
Quinlan : 2 - Terrible game gave away stupid penalties
Wallace : 8 - Excellent game for Wallace
Heaslip : 6 - Very average game for Heaslip
TO'L : 8 - Very good and considering his first game was against the ABs
O'Gara : 1 - Worst player on the pitch, no explanation necessary.
Fitz : 8 - Excellent game for Fitz both in attack and defence
BOD : 8 - Once again an excellent game
Bowe : 6 - Never saw much of the ball
Kearney : 7 - Quiet game but did prevent a certain try.
Dempsey : 5 - Offered nothing going forward.

Gelio

jayteecork wrote: »

Awful player ratings in today's Indo. The entire team got a 6 except for Rob Kearney who got a 7.

Yeah I thought the sunday times was a bit harsh also.
Dempsy got a 4, I thought he was fairly solid.
Hayes got a 5, I would have given him 6/7.
And the whole AB team got very high ratings.


Also what I have noticed id that POC gets very high ratings no matter how well/badly he plays.

I just don't like the way every player had one mark taken off purely because of the result.:mad:


Edit: Oh yeah and I thought the centers (especialy Fitz) were very good

thehighground

Shelflife wrote: »

Your comment about O'Gara being in a comfort zone is laughable. You think he wants to go out and play badly for Ireland?

I never suggested that, but it stands to reason that the fact that he has no competition would not keep him on his toes as much as someone who has competition for their place.

Knowing that if he gets injured/not at his best and can't get taken off must also add more pressure on him. All the opposition teams know that to beat Ireland you just have to get at O'Gara, so, he is always targetted for individual attention.

Apart from anything else, I know every time I see O'Gara go in contact in an Ireland shirt, I start praying that he is able to get up again. It probably also unnerves the rest of team that he is actually irreplacable at the moment. That is not his fault, its the fault of Sexton, Staunton, Keatley, O'Connor, Humphreys etc. for not actually stepping up to the plate because they won't have to battle half as hard as O'Gara did with D.Humphreys for the Ireland shirt.

phog

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

What a joke my ratings would be :

Horan : 3 - Cost us a certain try
Best : 2 - Terrible throwing and did very little around the pitch
Hayes : 6 - Average game for Hayes
DOC : 4 - Contributed next to nothing
POC : 7 - Fairly solid game for POC, shame he got injured
Quinlan : 2 - Terrible game gave away stupid penalties
Wallace : 8 - Excellent game for Wallace
Heaslip : 6 - Very average game for Heaslip
TO'L : 8 - Very good and considering his first game was against the ABs
O'Gara : 1 - Worst player on the pitch, no explanation necessary.
Fitz : 8 - Excellent game for Fitz both in attack and defence
BOD : 8 - Once again an excellent game
Bowe : 6 - Never saw much of the ball
Kearney : 7 - Quiet game but did prevent a certain try.
Dempsey : 5 - Offered nothing going forward.

I dont rate player ratings but your are all over the shop, Wally gets 8 for being excellent, Kearney gets 7 for a quiet game and those that had an average game gets a 6.

I only saw the game from the stands and haven't yet looked at it on TV but for we kicked away too much ball, we took quick tap penalties like we needed to run into the ABs, why not kick for touch and try to move the ball up field to the red zone. Too many handlings and decision errors from too many of our stars. Thought the ref had a poor game, he ceratinly gave NZ more than we got at the breakdown.

BTW, What try did Horan cost us?

BTW2, some of the penalties that are attributed to Quinny would not be penalties with a different ref, there was certainly 2 if not more that he came from the hind foot.

RugbyFanatic

phog wrote: »

I dont rate player ratings but your are all over the shop, Wally gets 8 for being excellent, Kearney gets 7 for a quiet game and those that had an average game gets a 6.

Kearney had a quiet game by his own standard but he gets a 7 (slightly above average) for stopping a clear try.

BTW, What try did Horan cost us?

He once again found himself out wide and flung a certain try pass miles over the head of Quinlan

BTW2, some of the penalties that are attributed to Quinny would not be penalties with a different ref, there was certainly 2 if not more that he came from the hind foot.

Even if that was the case there was still some downright stupid ones given away by him in very promising positions.

redmca

It looked like ROG was rattled by having his first kick blocked down and never really recovered. His kicking from hand was miles off what we have come to expect from him.

Can anyone explain why when he was clearly (punt) kicking badly Kearney was not asked to take penalties to the RH touch line? Denis Hickie use to do the same on occasions (not often enough IMO). If there some rule in rugby that gives this responsibility 99% of the time to the No 10 player? It sure looks like that sometimes. Even Dempsey would have done better than ROG.

While TOL had a good game and should be retained, his pass is a lot slower that Stringer resulting in more pressure on ROG, something he his still only learning to live with.

bugler

Very disappointing performance right from the off.

The onfield leadership to adapt to the pressure in the first half wasn't there at all. ROG/BOD/POC should have realized that having had only 30 percent of the ball that we needed possession. Needed time with the ball in hand. Put some phases together. Instead we had headless chicken stuff. Have you ever seen BOD so keen to kick when he got the ball in midfield? The whole team was panicked.

The fact that some of BOD's and ROG's kicking to the corners were executed well and got some cheers is irrelevant. The only use in kicking in there is if you can pressure the lineout, which we couldn't. NZ won their own ball every time they found themselves down there, and never looked in trouble. So what was plan B? Oh right, kick to the corner again. Genius.

The mental gap between ourselves and the SH (and particularly NZ) is no closer to being closed. We have a firmly rooted inferiority complex and it impacts our rugby.

thehighground

New Zealand Press on the game.

Interesting the players picked out by them here as having a good game: John Hayes, Alan Quinlan, Luke Fitzgerald and Tomas O'Leary.

---

David Leggat: The strife of Brian hits again [Ireland v All Blacks]
4:00AM Monday Nov 17, 2008
By David Leggat


All Blacks' Grand Slam tour

For 39 minutes, it was shaping as a belting contest. Then it all went wrong for Ireland.

And the blame sits squarely with Brian O'Driscoll. The Irish captain's relationship with the All Blacks will never be warm and embracing, courtesy of his being dumped out of the Lions tour a minute into their first test in Christchurch three years ago.

O'Driscoll took his dislocated shoulder injury, and the manner in which it happened, badly.

To many hardcore All Black fans, of course, that made him an Irish whinger, a view which takes no account of the fact that the two All Blacks who ended his tour got off scot-free for an appalling piece of handiwork.

So you think O'Driscoll's desire to break his country's test duck after 103 years of trying has hardened since then?

A minute before halftime, and with Ireland's Ronan O'Gara having walloped a fine long-distance penalty to make it 3-all, it was all on.

Ireland had defended stoutheartedly, had a few moments going forward and in young second five-eighths Luke Fitzgerald and flanker Alan Quinlan possessed respectively a fleet-footed attacker with real zest, and an old-fashioned hard nut to whom a backward step belongs in a tango.

The 82,000 voices were readying a Croke Park roar for when the battle resumed, and the longer Ireland stayed close, surely the greater resonance of the roar.

So when O'Driscoll gathered one of those aimless backwards-and-forwards kicks that punctuate the game these days, the clock had already ticked past 40 minutes. Step into touch and head for the tunnel with Irish tails up.

Instead, the richly gifted centre, whose instinctive desire to attack is usually a good thing, popped a little dinky kick over the top into All Black hands. It was a moment in the life of this Brian to forget.

About a minute later, Ireland's wing Tommy Bowe was punching the ball into the in-goal area to prevent Richie McCaw from scoring, and South African referee Mark Lawrence was awarding a penalty try and giving Bowe 10 minutes on the sideline.

There's little point speculating what might have transpired had O'Driscoll done the smart, the sensible, the logical thing and stepped out. But unquestionably his actions decisively tilted the test the All Blacks' way.

Until then, there had been a sense that although the All Blacks were pressing, Ireland had held firm; their scrum - even including big, bald, amiable John Hayes who has always looked incapable of scrummaging a blancmange - was holding up. Their tackling was sound, their debutant halfback Tomas O'Leary looked distinctly useful.

There could be no complaints at the penalty-try decision, but when Lawrence pulled out his yellow card it was a double whammy against the Irish and desperately tough.

Lawrence, a referee known to have a few tickets on himself, could have used common sense. The penalty try was surely sufficient punishment.

When Tony Woodcock got his sin-binning for a punch unseen by any camera, the All Blacks scored 12 points. They won easing away, and most likely would have even without O'Driscoll's blunder. But it would have been fun finding out.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10543382&pnum=0

Hippo

redmca wrote: »

Can anyone explain why when he was clearly (punt) kicking badly Kearney was not asked to take penalties to the RH touch line? Denis Hickie use to do the same on occasions (not often enough IMO). If there some rule in rugby that gives this responsibility 99% of the time to the No 10 player? It sure looks like that sometimes. Even Dempsey would have done better than ROG.

I couldn't believe this was happening, Kearney was the obvious choice for a couple of these.

Noopti

It was obvious from quite early in the match that the kicking game was not working, in fact it was giving the All Blacks their best attacking options. Why we kept kicking the ball back to them is a mystery to me.

We should have kept it tight, for phases before trying to get it wide. It might not have made any difference, but at least it would have been a change of tactic considering the kicking game was really doing us in.

GreeBo

But even with ROG doing kicking, why was no one chasing anything?
NZ were able to gather the ball with ease (and in one case pass it from their knees...I mean hello?!, pressure anyone?)

RugbyFanatic

thehighground wrote: »

New Zealand Press on the game.

Interesting the players picked out by them here as having a good game: John Hayes, Alan Quinlan, Luke Fitzgerald and Tomas O'Leary.

---

David Leggat: The strife of Brian hits again [Ireland v All Blacks]
4:00AM Monday Nov 17, 2008
By David Leggat


All Blacks' Grand Slam tour

For 39 minutes, it was shaping as a belting contest. Then it all went wrong for Ireland.

And the blame sits squarely with Brian O'Driscoll. The Irish captain's relationship with the All Blacks will never be warm and embracing, courtesy of his being dumped out of the Lions tour a minute into their first test in Christchurch three years ago.

O'Driscoll took his dislocated shoulder injury, and the manner in which it happened, badly.

To many hardcore All Black fans, of course, that made him an Irish whinger, a view which takes no account of the fact that the two All Blacks who ended his tour got off scot-free for an appalling piece of handiwork.

So you think O'Driscoll's desire to break his country's test duck after 103 years of trying has hardened since then?

A minute before halftime, and with Ireland's Ronan O'Gara having walloped a fine long-distance penalty to make it 3-all, it was all on.

Ireland had defended stoutheartedly, had a few moments going forward and in young second five-eighths Luke Fitzgerald and flanker Alan Quinlan possessed respectively a fleet-footed attacker with real zest, and an old-fashioned hard nut to whom a backward step belongs in a tango.

The 82,000 voices were readying a Croke Park roar for when the battle resumed, and the longer Ireland stayed close, surely the greater resonance of the roar.

So when O'Driscoll gathered one of those aimless backwards-and-forwards kicks that punctuate the game these days, the clock had already ticked past 40 minutes. Step into touch and head for the tunnel with Irish tails up.

Instead, the richly gifted centre, whose instinctive desire to attack is usually a good thing, popped a little dinky kick over the top into All Black hands. It was a moment in the life of this Brian to forget.

About a minute later, Ireland's wing Tommy Bowe was punching the ball into the in-goal area to prevent Richie McCaw from scoring, and South African referee Mark Lawrence was awarding a penalty try and giving Bowe 10 minutes on the sideline.

There's little point speculating what might have transpired had O'Driscoll done the smart, the sensible, the logical thing and stepped out. But unquestionably his actions decisively tilted the test the All Blacks' way.

Until then, there had been a sense that although the All Blacks were pressing, Ireland had held firm; their scrum - even including big, bald, amiable John Hayes who has always looked incapable of scrummaging a blancmange - was holding up. Their tackling was sound, their debutant halfback Tomas O'Leary looked distinctly useful.

There could be no complaints at the penalty-try decision, but when Lawrence pulled out his yellow card it was a double whammy against the Irish and desperately tough.

Lawrence, a referee known to have a few tickets on himself, could have used common sense. The penalty try was surely sufficient punishment.

When Tony Woodcock got his sin-binning for a punch unseen by any camera, the All Blacks scored 12 points. They won easing away, and most likely would have even without O'Driscoll's blunder. But it would have been fun finding out.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10543382&pnum=0

What a joke of an article so the entire defeat rests in BOD's hands because he didn't put the ball out of play? :rolleyes:

Real FM

I think our fundemental problems started at scrum half and outhalf. Yes O'leary didn't play badly but at an international standard his passes are far too slow. Similarly his passes are far too flat. In turn this led to our back line being too flat in attack. Since the ref didnt pick up on numerous offsides nz took advantage of this, what good side wouldnt?

In terms of outhalf, well I dont need to go into how bad o'gara was. The main problems was that we had no1 to replace him. It just shows how reliant on o'gara we are. We cant really expect to put a player like Paddy Wallace on the pitch for an entire half against the New Zealand/Fiji/Somoa first team. Imagine if he had a strong game - surely our game as a whole would have improved.

Eoin

Sandwich wrote: »

Was at the game yesterday and have yet to have a proper look at the penalty try on TV. Is it clear from Bowe's action, or has he said since that it was his aim to knock the ball out of play? If is intention was to nudge the ball away from McCaw - even if the ball went out of play - then his action was fair and it shouldnt have been a try. (just curious, not looking for excuses. clearly the superior team well deserved their win)

I think it was very clear that it was an intentional swat to touch. There was absolutely no effort to catch or ground the ball, in fact his hand was under the ball and he hit it upwards.

Here's the footage - from about 1:30 into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk_bSKlfwH8

thehighground

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

What a joke of an article so the entire defeat rests in BOD's hands because he didn't put the ball out of play? :rolleyes:

It was the difference of walking into the dressing room 3-3 with the Kiwis at half-time and look forward to recommencing the battle with 15 men and not 14. A huge psychological blow.

Something similar (bad decision making) happened when Ireland lost to France in Croke Park. BOD wasn't to blame that day though.

GreeBo

Real FM wrote: »

Similarly his passes are far too flat. In turn this led to our back line being too flat in attack.

Which comes first, flat passes or flat backline?
I would say that the line governs the passes, the SH will pass the ball to wherever the OH is standing.