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The Next Referendum Vote Clock Is Ticking Down...

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    #272
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    But there will be a Plan D.

    And E.

    And F.

    And G.

    Until "They", not "We" get their way.

    Whoever "They" are. Does anybody know?


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    #273
    jhegarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    If asking you something twice will break your will to resist, I hope you're never entrusted with vital state secrets.

    What gives your the impression it will only be twice ?


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    #274
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    dresden8 wrote: »
    But there will be a Plan D.

    And E.

    And F.

    And G.

    Until "They", not "We" get their way.
    Does that crystal ball of yours do lottery numbers?
    Whoever "They" are. Does anybody know?
    Why don't you tell us?


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    #275
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    jhegarty wrote: »
    What gives your the impression it will only be twice ?
    How many EU treaties have we voted on more than twice?


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    #276
    jhegarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    How many EU treaties have we voted on more than twice?

    We never voted "No" twice, they stop when they get the correct result.


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    #277
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    jhegarty wrote: »
    We never voted "No" twice, they stop when they get the correct result.
    Do you honestly think there's the political will for a third referendum, given the hostility to the idea of a second?


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    #278
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    dresden8 wrote: »
    But there will be a Plan D.

    And E.

    And F.

    And G.

    I would hope there would be a plan in the event of a second No, but it's not one that could involve Ireland ratifying Lisbon.
    dresden8 wrote: »
    Until "They", not "We" get their way.

    Well, not really. If we vote No, we've got our way. If we vote Yes, we've got our way. Not you in the latter case, admittedly, but then not me in the former.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #279
    jhegarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Do you honestly think there's the political will for a third referendum, given the hostility to the idea of a second?

    If you ignore the people once, why wouldn't you do it 10 times...


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    #280
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    jhegarty wrote: »
    If you ignore the people once, why wouldn't you do it 10 times...
    That's not an answer.


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    #281
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Why don't you tell us?

    Because I don't know. I was asking you.

    Anyway, what makes two the magic referendum number when they stop?


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    #282
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Because I don't know. I was asking you.
    You're the one who brought "them" into it.
    Anyway, what makes two the magic referendum number when they stop?
    Same question I asked jhegarty. Maybe you'll actually answer it.


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    #283
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Oscar,Oscar, Oscar

    Always answer a question with a question and then badger for an answer. Two votes appears to be yours, Scofflaw's and the Governments "limit" for referenda. The question is yours to answer. Why two, and no more?

    Anyway "They" are "Those" who are pushing for the second vote you aren't convinced will happen, apparently.

    As I've said before "We" are not marching on the Dail demanding a chance to rectify our "mistake". "We" seem rather pre-occupied with other stuff.


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    #284
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Oscar,Oscar, Oscar

    Always answer a question with a question and then badger for an answer. Two votes appears to be yours, Scofflaw's and the Governments "limit" for referenda. The question is yours to answer. Why two, and no more?

    I haven't suggested that two are a limit. There's nothing except politics to prevent the government asking the question once a week from here to Doomsday.
    dresden8 wrote: »
    Anyway "They" are "Those" who are pushing for the second vote you aren't convinced will happen, apparently.

    As I've said before "We" are not marching on the Dail demanding a chance to rectify our "mistake". "We" seem rather pre-occupied with other stuff.

    We are not marching on the Dáil demanding no second referendum either.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #285
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Why dont we have a running Eur-o-meter somewhere online (Boards would do it!) and people can vote all day every day. If it ever falls under 50% we automatically leave the union but if it peaks above 50% again then we are in again. Its where this nonsense of second referenda is going logically. If we ask once a year, why not once a season? Once a month? Are you still sure? Really?



    Still sure?




    It could be the ultimate "democracy", we could even have a mobile version of it, in case on the bus you changed your mind and wanted to vote differently.


    The problem is that if they arent going to take "No" for an answer, they arent going to take "you have to wait X years before asking again" for an answer either.


    DeV.


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    #286
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Two votes appears to be yours, Scofflaw's and the Governments "limit" for referenda. The question is yours to answer. Why two, and no more?
    I can't see a third referendum being held. You and others apparently think there will be several dozen - but you studiously avoid the rather pertinent question of whether there's the political will to do so.
    Anyway "They" are "Those" who are pushing for the second vote you aren't convinced will happen, apparently.
    I think it will happen. I think it should happen. But I don't know that it will happen. And, despite your apparent confidence in your prognostication skills, you don't know that either.

    As for "them", I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by dragging some unidentified third parties into a conversation and then demanding that I identify them.


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    #287
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    DeVore wrote: »
    The problem is that if they arent going to take "No" for an answer, they arent going to take "you have to wait X years before asking again" for an answer either.
    I think you and others are missing the point that the other EU member states aren't taking "no" for an answer, because it's a bloody inconvenient answer for everyone concerned.

    I believe Scofflaw drew the analogy: 27 people spend quite a lot of time planning a joint holiday. They've worked out the dates, booked the flights and the hotels, bought the clothes and swimwear, taken time off work... you get the idea.

    A week before departure, one of them says "the missus doesn't want to go."

    On what planet do the other 26 say "that's cool dude, we respect your decision, let's cancel the whole thing, so"?

    Isn't it just passing likely that they'll put pressure on him to go back and try to talk her into it?

    More to the point, does she really - really - think that because she doesn't want to go, they're all going to cheerfully cancel their plans?


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    #288
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    DeVore wrote: »
    Why dont we have a running Eur-o-meter somewhere online (Boards would do it!) and people can vote all day every day. If it ever falls under 50% we automatically leave the union but if it peaks above 50% again then we are in again. Its where this nonsense of second referenda is going logically. If we ask once a year, why not once a season? Once a month? Are you still sure? Really?



    Still sure?




    It could be the ultimate "democracy", we could even have a mobile version of it, in case on the bus you changed your mind and wanted to vote differently.


    The problem is that if they arent going to take "No" for an answer, they arent going to take "you have to wait X years before asking again" for an answer either.


    DeV.

    That's because the rest of the EU member states will not wait indefinitely. Is there any reason why they should?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #289
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,926 ✭✭✭trellheim


    personally I'm happy they've decided to try to take another referendum before asking to leave the EU .....

    there will not be a renegotiation of Lisbon. Therefore accept or get out. The other governments are giving us a slim chance to get it right but it won't last.

    L2 will be a vote to stay in the E.U . People can bang on all they want about it [ and they will ] but that's bottom-lining it.


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    #290
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I think you and others are missing the point that the other EU member states aren't taking "no" for an answer, because it's a bloody inconvenient answer for everyone concerned.

    Are you saying we will be compelled?

    But I thought they "respected" our vote.

    How can this be?


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    #291
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I think you and others are missing the point that the other EU member states aren't taking "no" for an answer, because it's a bloody inconvenient answer for everyone concerned.

    I believe Scofflaw drew the analogy: 27 people spend quite a lot of time planning a joint holiday. They've worked out the dates, booked the flights and the hotels, bought the clothes and swimwear, taken time off work... you get the idea.

    A week before departure, one of them says "the missus doesn't want to go."

    On what planet do the other 26 say "that's cool dude, we respect your decision, let's cancel the whole thing, so"?

    Isn't it just passing likely that they'll put pressure on him to go back and try to talk her into it?

    More to the point, does she really - really - think that because she doesn't want to go, they're all going to cheerfully cancel their plans?

    Maybe the 27 husbands should have checked the plans with the 27 missuses before they planned their merry jaunt.


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    #292
    tolosenc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Maybe the 27 husbands should have checked the plans with the 27 missuses before they planned their merry jaunt.


    With a pre-referendum referendum?


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    #293
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Maybe the 27 husbands should have checked the plans with the 27 missuses before they planned their merry jaunt.

    That is true - and indeed it would be nice to think that in the aftermath of the missus' initial rejection there would be a reasonable discussion of the whole thing, as opposed to her chucking all the pots out of the kitchen any time the subject is mentioned...

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #294
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Are you saying we will be compelled?

    But I thought they "respected" our vote.

    How can this be?
    If you're not interested in a discussion, please say so and save me wasting my time composing replies to you.
    dresden8 wrote: »
    Maybe the 27 husbands should have checked the plans with the 27 missuses before they planned their merry jaunt.
    Maybe the missus showed no interest whatsoever in the plans until after they were made. Maybe after the holiday was booked someone whispered in her ear that the hubbies were planning to spend the holiday in a brothel and, rather than actually find out for herself, she threw a strop.

    We can stretch the analogy any which way, but the central point is that we have a large group of countries to whom we seem to think we can permanently dictate their future without having any clear idea why we have a problem with that future. If you don't see why that's not a particularly tenable situation, I give up.


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    #295
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    obl wrote: »
    With a pre-referendum referendum?


    Oddly enough, that seems to be the way things are turning out.


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    #296
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Why two, and no more?


    I'd say it would go as follows:

    We have General election -Fianna Fail in power

    We have Lisbon 1 - no vote

    We have Lisbon 2 - no vote

    We have General Election - Major party takes office (fianna fail/ Fina Gael)

    we have lisbon 3 - no vote


    now which of those are the actual important political events?

    I'll give you a clue...Its not the referendums


    The result of the referendum is a political anomaly because it does not match with the peoples other political decisions. Primarily the general election results.

    hell Lisbon was straight after (in political terms) the general election yet somehow the *no* voting majority ignored the issue and waited until the referendum.

    It doesnt make sense.

    how can something go from not being an issue to being an issue in a matter of a single year?

    You can have a third referendum overturning a yes vote if the government formed from the next general election is opposed to the Lisbon treaty.
    Maybe the 27 husbands should have checked the plans with the 27 missuses before they planned their merry jaunt.

    that would have been the general election. Remember the party that enjoyed the biggest increase in seats between elections was still a Pro-Lisbon party (Fine Gael) Sinn Fein, who was the only major Anti-Lisbon party actually lost a seat.


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    #297
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    How many EU treaties have we voted on more than twice?

    When is the last EU treaty we rejected that we weren't asked to re-vote until we said yes?
    Just because there's no precedent doesnt mean it's unlikely. If before Nice you had said how many times have we been made vote again on a EU treaty cause we rejected it you'd have had the same strenght argument as you do now.


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    #298
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    When is the last EU treaty we rejected that we weren't asked to re-vote until we said yes?
    Just because there's no precedent doesnt mean it's unlikely. If before Nice you had said how many times have we been made vote again on a EU treaty cause we rejected it you'd have had the same strenght argument as you do now.
    OK: same question to you that two other people have refused to answer - do you think there's the political will to hold three referenda on Lisbon?


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    #299
    jhegarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    OK: same question to you that two other people have refused to answer - do you think there's the political will to hold three referenda on Lisbon?

    Yes there is.

    FF don't have a hope in hell of getting re-elected, getting this passed will guarantee some nice European jobs for the newly unemployed td's after the next election.


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    #300
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    How many EU treaties have we voted on more than twice?

    from Fianna Fail government...No. havin 3+ referendums in one sitting will severely cripple them as a party and regardless of the result from any of the referendums they will really suffer in any elections that follow.

    After 2 they will regardless of the EU revert to political self preservation and start happy cute clutter politics to rebuild reputation.


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    #301
    Furious-Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    jhegarty wrote: »
    Yes there is.

    FF don't have a hope in hell of getting re-elected, getting this passed will guarantee some nice European jobs for the newly unemployed td's after the next election.

    Perhaps that's why FF want another referendum, but what about the other political parties?


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