The Next Referendum Vote Clock Is Ticking Down...

Darragh29

oscarBravo wrote: »

So you didn't bother to try to understand the treaty, or its provisions, or the consequences of ratification, or the consequences of failure to ratify, or anything that, y'know, had anything to actually do with the subject on which you were asked to vote. You voted based on what was clear to you from a previous vote.

And this is your interpretation of "democracy", yeah? What c*nts don't you trust?

I did study the terms of the treaty, and I ended up arriving at the conclusion that this treaty could be used as an instrument to put any particular legislation or EU policy on top of us in the future. It is open ended and vague and open to all sorts of questionable interpretation. It cannot be fully understood, not even by the people who helped draft it, for example our own politicians who held the EU presidency when this was concluded.

There should be no inherent difficulty whatsoever with giving us a readable, legible and understandable document that we can first of all digest and consider and second of all, can see the benefits of.

The c*nts I don't trust are the c*nts who asked us to vote on this only a few months ago and are telling us that we have to ratify this same rejected and unaltered treaty within a few months from now, while talking absolute horse sh*te about respecting our democratic decision on the last occasion.

We don't need another army in the world, what we need are less armies and less munitions and less wars. This is what the focus of the EU should be for a start, not more preparations and groundsetting under Lisbon for another world army. Even if we are neutral and our neutrality is respected, we would still be part of a war if the EU ended up in a war with another jurisdiction.

djpbarry

Darragh29 wrote: »

I did study the terms of the treaty, and I ended up arriving at the conclusion that this treaty could be used as an instrument to put any particular legislation or EU policy on top of us in the future.

You obviously didn't study it very hard. As if to further emphasise the point:

Darragh29 wrote: »

Even if we are neutral and our neutrality is respected, we would still be part of a war if the EU ended up in a war with another jurisdiction.

Maybe you should read the treaty without your Warmongering EU* glasses on?

* A registered trademark of Cóir

Darragh29

djpbarry wrote: »

You obviously didn't study it very hard. As if to further emphasise the point:
Maybe you should read the treaty without your Warmongering EU* glasses on?

* A registered trademark of Cóir

If the US went to war with say Russia, and California decide that they are a neutral state, wtf does that really mean??? They are part of the US ffs!

oscarBravo

Darragh29 wrote: »

If the US went to war with say Russia, and California decide that they are a neutral state, wtf does that really mean??? They are part of the US ffs!

California isn't a sovereign state. You need to check your premises.

sink

Darragh29 wrote: »

If the US went to war with say Russia, and California decide that they are a neutral state, wtf does that really mean??? They are part of the US ffs!

Ridiculous analogy. California has no soldiers exclusively under it's control. All Californian soldiers are under the control of the US federal government and that includes the national guard. All of the Republic of Ireland's soldiers are under the exclusive control of the Oireachtas and can only be deployed with it's permission.

noel farrell

if we had voted yes would we get another chance i dont think so does this tell you anything

Scofflaw

Darragh29 wrote: »

If the US went to war with say Russia, and California decide that they are a neutral state, wtf does that really mean??? They are part of the US ffs!

The European Union can't declare war. It has no power to do so - the EU can issue resolutions and take up a common position on the matter, but that's all - and it can only do that through unanimity. Any declarations of war would have to be made by each individual state.

Clearly that's not the same in the US, where California can't declare war, has no veto over the US declaring war, and cannot opt out if the US does declare war. That's because the EU isn't the US.

regards,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

noel farrell wrote: »

if we had voted yes would we get another chance i dont think so does this tell you anything

It tells you that the result of voting Yes is different from that of voting No - something I assume we're all aware of.

regards,
Scofflaw

Darragh29

Scofflaw wrote: »

The European Union can't declare war. It has no power to do so - the EU can issue resolutions and take up a common position on the matter, but that's all - and it can only do that through unanimity. Any declarations of war would have to be made by each individual state.

Clearly that's not the same in the US, where California can't declare war, has no veto over the US declaring war, and cannot opt out if the US does declare war. That's because the EU isn't the US.

regards,
Scofflaw

Just like the Lisbon treaty requires "unanimity" and if it doesn't get "unanimity", it doesn't happen, right??? The EU isn't the US, but that is the direction the EU is being taken towards...

vote4pedro

I don't have the patience to read through the thread and so put up with the uninformed ramblings of half this thread, so any chance someone can tell me will there be a non party affiliated Yes campaign group to oppose Libertas and ask serious questions of the group. If so, where do I give them a big load of money.

mumhaabu

oscarBravo wrote: »

California isn't a sovereign state. You need to check your premises.

No it was however once a Republic that lasted mere weeks before being annexed (Occupied and taken over with no respect for its sovereignty) by the fledgling United States which was actively expanding west under Manifest Destiny. The Republic of Texas also succumbed to the Yankee invasion.

The United States is a Federal Union of 50 states, and when the Union split when the self proclaimed Confederate States of America decided it didn't like the U.S.A it was quickly invaded and defeated after the civil war.

If we Vote Yes to Lisbon we will be like North Dakota, or Idaho with our resources raped for the masses (Fish anybody) and little or no say in how things work. However right now we are the swing state who decides the outcome of the Election.

Irish people rejected the Lisbon treaty by a bigger percentage than the Americans elected Barack Obama, now imagine for a minute if Mexico or Canada decided to start putting pressure on the USA to have another election because they didn't like the outcome i.e. Mr. Obama.

Mr.Nice Guy

RIP Irish democracy.

Those who defend the decision to hold another referendum on a treaty rejected by the electorate are, and forever will be, removed from the democratic process.

Hang your heads in shame.

Scofflaw

Darragh29 wrote: »

Just like the Lisbon treaty requires "unanimity" and if it doesn't get "unanimity", it doesn't happen, right??? The EU isn't the US, but that is the direction the EU is being taken towards...

Yes, it requires unanimity. If it doesn't get it, it cannot be ratified, and cannot proceed. It is important to 27 countries, and that's why we're being asked again, in a free vote. You can vote No.

regards,
Scofflaw

Darragh29

Scofflaw wrote: »

Yes, it requires unanimity. If it doesn't get it, it cannot be ratified, and cannot proceed. It is important to 27 countries, and that's why we're being asked again, in a free vote. You can vote No.

regards,
Scofflaw

But we only voted no last June 12th, 5 months ago!?!?!?! Now we're being asked to vote again next October! If we vote no again, what is it then, another referendum???

Villain

Jesus I'm surprised at the re-action of a few friends that voted YES they now say they will vote NO because the Government is pushing this on us and not respecting our vote??

I don't think this is going to be straight forward!

vote4pedro

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

RIP Irish democracy.

Those who defend the decision to hold another referendum on a treaty rejected by the electorate are, and forever will be, removed from the democratic process.

Hang your heads in shame.

How so?

RIP Irish democracy? Jesus wept, perfectly encapsulates the overblown bullcrap of the No side.

Scofflaw

Darragh29 wrote: »

But we only voted no last June 12th, 5 months ago!?!?!?! Now we're being asked to vote again next October! If we vote no again, what is it then, another referendum???

18 months - that's the same as between the two Nice referendums. Not that our economy collapsed between the tow of those, of course.

Jesus I'm surprised at the re-action of a few friends that voted YES they now say they will vote NO because the Government is pushing this on us and not respecting our vote??

I don't think this is going to be straight forward!

True. Still, the reason for a new referendum is the respect for the vote.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Mr.Nice Guy

vote4pedro wrote: »

How so?

RIP Irish democracy? Jesus wept, perfectly encapsulates the overblown bullcrap of the No side.

No, you encapsulate the sheer disregard that's been shown to a democratic decision made by the electorate which the European elite refuses to accept.

I am not interested in 'bullcrap', but democracy.

If the referendum result had been 'Yes' I would not have called for a repeat referendum as I believe in respecting the electorate's wishes. (Of course if the No side had done so in such a situation they would have been laughed at) Same with the decision last year to return Fianna Fáil to power which I didn't like but had to accept.

I can sleep soundly at night knowing I have not sold out on my democratic principles.

WooPeeA

Villain wrote: »

Jesus I'm surprised at the re-action of a few friends that voted YES they now say they will vote NO because the Government is pushing this on us and not respecting our vote??

I don't think this is going to be straight forward!

And again, people won't decide how to vote because of the Treaty but because of some inside problem.

How Europe can treat Ireland seriously?

33cl

Maybe there should be another referendum. Both the pro and anti camps will go into hyperdrive with the leaflets and the propaganda. no politician or hack will be able to say that the electorate is stupid or ill-informed then. If we vote yes because the EU has given in to our demands, fair enough. But if we vote no with the threat of EU expulsion hanging over our heads, I say good riddance. I wont be bullied.

cooperguy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

RIP Irish democracy.

Those who defend the decision to hold another referendum on a treaty rejected by the electorate are, and forever will be, removed from the democratic process.

Hang your heads in shame.

Those who think it is good for the country to not try and properly inform the voter and have a re-run, with an informed voter especially when a no vote will do major damage to the country and was influenced the first time by a group who had three time the funding of the Yes campaign and engaged in scare tactics and and spreading complete lies should hang their heads in shame.

noel farrell wrote: »

if we had voted yes would we get another chance i dont think so does this tell you anything

It tells us that we democratically voted for a Pro-European government, therefore they will operate a pro Europe policy. This has been the case for many years now and has (in general) served us well.

PHB

33cl wrote: »

Maybe there should be another referendum. Both the pro and anti camps will go into hyperdrive with the leaflets and the propaganda. no politician or hack will be able to say that the electorate is stupid or ill-informed then. If we vote yes because the EU has given in to our demands, fair enough. But if we vote no with the threat of EU expulsion hanging over our heads, I say good riddance. I wont be bullied.

'They' might ask for their 66 billion they gave us back. That'd be about 16.5 k per person in the country. Oh and the stream hasn't died off at all, we still get very high levels despite our economic growth. So I guess in 20 years time, ask your kid would he have liked an extra 16.5 k in exchange for compromising on the commissioner issue. That's a toughie

nacho libre

33cl wrote: »

Maybe there should be another referendum. Both the pro and anti camps will go into hyperdrive with the leaflets and the propaganda. no politician or hack will be able to say that the electorate is stupid or ill-informed then. If we vote yes because the EU has given in to our demands, fair enough. But if we vote no with the threat of EU expulsion hanging over our heads, I say good riddance. I wont be bullied.

you won't but enough people will be due to the present economic situation. what happened in iceland maybe mentioned and the consequences for us if we reject again futher eu integration given the current econmic ice age.
i believe gangley's red-herrings and scare tactics will sound hollow this time around because the government will be able to say we got guarantees on concerns the irish electorate had about emotives topics such as abortion and neutrality and retaining the commissioner. also, if the clarion call from the no camp is that holding the vote again is undemocratic the government and pro yes side will retort that in democracy the people are entitled to change their minds and be asked the question again. also, the yes side will be able to say the EU is not a system of elite bureaucrats because they listened to the concerns of the irish people and addressed them. with all these factors taken into consideration i'll be gobsmacked if the Lisbon treaty does not pass sceond time around. if it doesn't Brian Cowen's future as FF leader maybe in doubt.

cooperguy

nacho libre wrote: »

you won't but enough people will be due to the present economic situation. what happened in iceland maybe mentioned and the consequences for us if we reject again futher eu integration given the current econmic ice age.
i believe gangley's red-herrings and scare tactics will sound hollow this time around because the government will be able to say we got guarantees on concerns the irish electorate had about emotives topics such as abortion and neutrality and retaining the commissioner. also, if the clarion call from the no camp is that holding the vote again is undemocratic the government and pro yes side will retort that in democracy the people are entitled to change their minds and be asked the question again. also, the yes side will be able to say the EU is not a system of elite bureaucrats because they listened to the concerns of the irish people and addressed them. with all these factors taken into consideration i'll be gobsmacked if the Lisbon treaty does not pass sceond time around. if it doesn't Brian Cowen's future as FF leader maybe in doubt.

The way you put it there sounds so promising!! We'll see in time I suppose

BlitzKrieg

If the referendum result had been 'Yes' I would not have called for a repeat referendum as I believe in respecting the electorate's wishes. (Of course if the No side had done so in such a situation they would have been laughed at) Same with the decision last year to return Fianna Fáil to power which I didn't like but had to accept.

a) the difference between a yes vote and a no vote in its result and respecting the decision is that to a international treaty, yes is very simple. we agree to the document, no on the other hand through a referendum is a scattertshot of disagreements that cannot agree with each other (there is alot of dislike for libertas on the no side as much as the yes side) let alone specific elements of the document, its not productive it doesnt say why no, just no which leabves why very much open for renegotiation (from a major change, to a minor cosmetic touch up) hence a no vote can always lead to a second referendum because an international treaty can be rengotiated in some manner (in this case a most minor set of statements and a even more damaging rollback on a much needed change.) THis is the democratic system at work with the international system in a progressive enviroment

THe No side cant push for a 2nd referendum or third one depending on the result at the moment because despite agreeing with the members of that campaign wholely on this issue it seems no one does on any other and wont elect any of them into political power. Which if they ever did, they are fully open to have as many referendums as they want. But Lisbon was on the table during the general election and no one cared, a year later they suddenly cared but they had already handed the reigns over to the pro lisbon parties. SO yes we can laugh at the no campaign because they have fickle weak willed support that will not deliver them into the position they need to be in, Again thats democracy. Vote in your representatives on the issues, Just because you voted against something in a referendum doesnt mean they cant put it to you again, you made them your representatives they are fully allowed to make these decisions under the democracy we formed and the vote they were given by the people. You accept the fianna fail result then you must accept they are fully in their rights to do this as the people gave them the power to make these decisions.

33cl

PHB wrote: »

'They' might ask for their 66 billion they gave us back. That'd be about 16.5 k per person in the country. Oh and the stream hasn't died off at all, we still get very high levels despite our economic growth. So I guess in 20 years time, ask your kid would he have liked an extra 16.5 k in exchange for compromising on the commissioner issue. That's a toughie

as far as I know, we have to pay it back anyway!! We've already given them 20 of the 60bn we owe, thats another 40 billion to be returned. Where did you get the 66bn figure? Yes we do still get over €2bn a year but within 5 years we'll be a net contributor. I've nothing against that but I wouldnt want to be part of an organisation that threatens members for exercising their democratic rights.

Scofflaw

33cl wrote: »

as far as I know, we have to pay it back anyway!! We've already given them 20 of the 60bn we owe, thats another 40 billion to be returned. Where did you get the 66bn figure? Yes we do still get over €2bn a year but within 5 years we'll be a net contributor. I've nothing against that but I wouldnt want to be part of an organisation that threatens members for exercising their democratic rights.

We're highly unlikely to become net contributors by the originally estimated date of 2013. That estimate was made in 2006, based on our then prevailing growth rates...

cordially,
Scofflaw

ShooterSF

Wow. We have got to have the greatest negotiators in the world! Really won me over with the new improved treaty!

What did they get changed? Reassurances that we wont be having abortions while serving our conscription in the army. Well fukin done FF, things that even you admitted have NOTHING to do with Lisbon. What a pack of idiots. Really.

What next? Will they be making Coir members of the civil service so they can run the country? Considering they've an equal level of intellect!

Will be volunteering myself to any other no campaigners after this shambles. Temper is boiling.

molloyjh

33cl wrote: »

I wouldnt want to be part of an organisation that threatens members for exercising their democratic rights.

Who threatened us?

I said before the referendum was held that it was a total farce of a referendum. The main issues that were being touted as reasons for voting No were easily proven to be false and yet the Yes campaign didn't seem too interested in disproving them. It showed just how out of touch our elected officials really are. It was blatantly obvious that ignorance was common-place regarding the Treaty going into it. No matter which way the result went (and I said it in the run up to the referendum) the whole thing was a sham.

Given that everything we have seen thus far would lead to the conclusion that ignorance played a major role, if not the major role, in the end result I think it only logical and fair that the electorate be informed properly on the details of the Treaty. If so many people didn't understand it how can we be sure if they wanted it or not?

My position is, and always has been, that we should re-run the referendum only after a program of informing the people of the facts has been run. I would nearly say that a study should then be run (before another vote) to get a feel for the peoples position on the Treaty, i.e. what way they would vote and why. Once we are sure that ignorance no longer plays a significant role in the decision then we should accept the decision, be it a Yes or a No.

Anyone who thinks we should accept a decision reached primarily through ignorance needs to re-think their stance. The analogy I used before was the new car analogy. If I want to buy a new 4-door 2l salloon and I was getting advice from a friend and he told me not to buy it because a) he didn't know anything about it or b) because he thought it was a 2-door 1l hatchback there's no way I would listen to his advice. I'd be mad to. Instead I would rather he read up on it first and gave me an informed opinion. I'd gladly listen then.

passive

ShooterSF wrote: »

Wow. We have got to have the greatest negotiators in the world! Really won me over with the new improved treaty!

What did they get changed? Reassurances that we wont be having abortions while serving our conscription in the army. Well fukin done FF, things that even you admitted have NOTHING to do with Lisbon. What a pack of idiots. Really.

What next? Will they be making Coir members of the civil service so they can run the country? Considering they've an equal level of intellect!

Will be volunteering myself to any other no campaigners after this shambles. Temper is boiling.

HILARIOUS. You know dmn well those issues were influences for a large portion of the No voting population. Fianna Fail didn't "admit" those weren't issues before. They desperately tried to explain that they weren't, while liars and charlatans insisted they were and confused and tricked everybody. You don't give a flying **** what's in the treaty or what they did or didn't change about it. Your sole decision making requirement is in your username.

So come on then, what would you like to see changed?