If Sinn Fein was in Power in coalition. Would they stick to their ideals?

Bob Z

What would happen if Sinn Fein got into power with Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael? Look at the Green Party they had to compromise to join Fianna Fáil. Would Sinn Fein do the same? How would effect their supporters? Especially if they were in power now during the recession.

I dont mean to turn this thread into a slagging match i would like considered opinion.

amcalester

What ideals? Apart from a united Ireland.

All they do is say No to whatever the other parties policies.

So your question should read,

If Sinn Fein was in power, would they disagree with their own policies?

Bob Z

amcalester wrote: »

What ideals? Apart from a united Ireland.

All they do is say No to whatever the other parties policies.

So your question should read,

If Sinn Fein was in power, would they disagree with their own policies?

Yes but aren't they Marxist? Also if they had started to go along with Goverment cuts wouldn't working class people who supported them become disillusioned?

FTA69

Yes but aren't they Marxist?

They are in their holes. They're soft left if anything and are moving increasingly toward the centre in their social and economic policies. They seem to have quietly abandoned the notion of universal access to free healthcare, and as we saw during the last general election they brazenly u-turned on their manifesto and were desperate to get into coalition with Fianna Fáil. Adams has spoken on numerous occasions about how SF is a "pro-business party". To tell you the truth Sinn Féin is completely controlled by a northern-based leadership which hasn't the slightest clue about southern politics. The whole ethos of the Provisional Republican Movement is one of northern nationalism, everything revolves around securing the Catholic community in the north; there is nothing really radical or revolutionary underpinning that movement anymore.

Also if they had started to go along with Goverment cuts wouldn't working class people who supported them become disillusioned?

That's already happening and in my opinion the party is beginning to stagnate. When they went chasing the upper-middle class vote they fell between two stools. It was their radicalism and hard community graft which made them so popular in the first place, not warbling on about the peace process and all-Ireland agendas; things the southern electorate couldn't give a f*ck about.

amc,

All they do is say No to whatever the other parties policies.

This is untrue. While slightly unrefined they were the prime movers in articulating an alternative view of society as well as the chief campaigners on certain issues. This earned them a lot of credibility amongst working people in Ireland. As far as I'm concerned Sinn Féin up until a few years back represented the best vehicle to advance change in this country.

lostexpectation

all that marxist and they'll increase they'll double our taxes is rubbish, they drop it all in power particularily in coalition.

sligobhoy67

Bob Z wrote: »

Yes but aren't they Marxist? Also if they had started to go along with Goverment cuts wouldn't working class people who supported them become disillusioned?

Marxist! what decade are you getting your information from?

Bob Z

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

Marxist! what decade are you getting your information from?

Oh so what are they now?

Biggins

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

Marxist! what decade are you getting your information from?

I think the poster was refering to something that happened a while ago.

Quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sinn_F%C3%A9in

One section of the Army Council wanted to take them down a purely political (Marxist) road, and abandon armed struggle.

I did read that their ideology was based around Marxist ideas but I think they have tailored it down to make it palatable for the Irish people to swallow.

http://www.answers.com/topic/sinn-f-in also provides more info on that subject.

---

If Sinn Fein got into power, I, myself would have some serious concerns.

FTA69

Oh so what are they now?

A bit left of centre.

The split that occurred in 1969 was not really about Marxism or the move left, it was about the winding down of Óglaigh na hÉireann and the decision by the Goulding faction of the Republican Movement to drop the policy of abstentionism from Leinster House, Stormont and Westminister. More importantly with the outbreak of the conflict in 1969 the IRA was unprepared for the defence of Nationalist areas from Loyalist pogroms, instead Goulding had sold many of the arms to the Free Wales Army. By 1970 you had the Officials (Sticks) under Goulding who later went on to form the Workers' Party and attempt to build a political base and the Provos who were concentrating on launching an armed struggle against the Brits.

While the Provos were initially more conservative than the Sticks they still contained a core of left-wing people, by the 1970s the movement was socialist in outlook, however it was never Marxist at all. If you want to have a look at a Marxist movement look at the Viet Cong.

In recent times, the "Sinn Féin are Marxists" argument was propagated by the likes of Michael McDowell in a scaremongering attempt to insinuate they'd wreck the economy if put in charge. The truth was that while Sinn Féin were on varying degrees of the left, they were never Marxist. At the moment they can't be considered anything other than centre or soft left.

Liam Byrne

the winding down of Óglaigh na hÉireann

That'd be Willie O'Dea's job : http://www.military.ie/

Permabear

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FTA69

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That'd be Willie O'Dea's job : http://www.military.ie/

The majority of Óglaigh na hÉireann rejected the Anglo-Irish Treaty and remained consituted as the IRA, the minority reconstituted as the Free State Army, whose decendants you are alluding to. Óglaigh na hÉireann is referring to the Volunteers of Ireland i.e the IRA, the term long preceeds the foundation of the Free State Army. What you are suggesting is that the Free Staters are in effect the direct decendants of the 1916 Volunteers.

Now, I've put forward my point of view and I'm leaving it at that. I am absolutely in no circumstances getting into a protracted debate about Free Staters.

FTA69

donegalfella wrote: »

James Connolly, one of the leaders of the 1916 Rising, said 'the currents of revolutionary thought in Ireland, the socialist and the nationalist are not antagonistic but complementary.'"

Sinn Féin claim to be socialist, the term socialism doesn't automatically equate with Marxism. Sinn Féin also have a billboard in West Belfast with a picture of Castro on it stating "for there to be a revolution there must be a revolutionary party". That statement is complete balls when one considers they aren't that far left of the Green Party.

In other words, according to Connolly, the "full meaning" of the term "Sinn Féin" involves a Marxist restructuring of society that he calls "Industrial Reconstruction."

James Connolly was never a member of Sinn Féin, his essay does not represent Sinn Féin at the time (he was a member of the Irish Socialist Republican Party), rather the essay is his reflection on the concept of "ourselves alone", it has nothing to do with Sinn Féin policy in 1908; he is simply stating the need for SF to adopt Socialist principles (of which they had none), he isn't speaking on their behalf. Sinn Féin at that time was under the control of Arthur Griffith, a convinced monarchist and capitalist. The same Griffith actually railed against Connolly's workers five years later during the 1913 Lockout

And the same James Connolly is given pride of place today on Sinn Féin's website, in the "overview" to the party's policies.

Connolly is claimed by everyone. He was a radical Marxist Republican but yet today his legacy is claimed by the Provos, Labour, the Socialist Party and even Fianna Fáil when it suits them. The fact he was a Marxist and is featured on the SF website proves nothing; he is like an Irish version of Che Guevara, lauded by many who don't even have a real idea of his politics. Even far-right nationalists commemorate Connolly, he is a Republican icon.

Sinn Féin may downplay their Marxism somewhat in their effort to grab votes—but the illiberal undertones are obviously still there.

What Marxism? I was in Sinn Féin for five years and I can tell you for a fact it isn't Marxist, it wasn't back in 2002 when I first joined and it certainly isn't now. Marxism put simply is the concept that the industrial workers will take ownership over the means of production, the creation of a classless society and the abolition of private property.

Perhaps you could explain to me Sinn Féin's alledged Marxism, you obviously have better insight than I do because I saw little evidence of it after five years of membership.

barneyeile

Bob Z wrote: »

What would happen if Sinn Fein got into power with Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael? Look at the Green Party they had to compromise to join Fianna Fáil. Would Sinn Fein do the same? How would effect their supporters? Especially if they were in power now during the recession.

I dont mean to turn this thread into a slagging match i would like considered opinion.

If Sinn Fein ever got into power, would the last person to leave the country please turn out the lights!

FTA69

I find it hilarious that some people are still suscribing to this view of a Machiavellian/Marxist/Fascist/insert-dastardly-term IRA Army Council using Sinn Féin to subvert the state etc when the fact of the matter is that they are simply a run of the mill party well on the road to political reformism. There's nothing special about them, no more than the Worker's Party of the late-80s.

barneyeile

FTA69 wrote: »

I find it hilarious that some people are still suscribing to this view of a Machiavellian/Marxist/Fascist/insert-dastardly-term IRA Army Council using Sinn Féin to subvert the state etc when the fact of the matter is that they are simply a run of the mill party well on the road to political reformism. There's nothing special about them, no more than the Worker's Party of the late-80s.

A run of the mill party? Are you SERIOUS? Would you trust a political party that used to have it's own private army? A United Ireland remains their only goal and that has been parked for the foreseeable future by the people of this Island. As a result they should be defunct.

Sand

SF arent a run of the mill party. In most parties or organisations the phrase "they know where all the bodies are buried" is a metaphor, not the literal truth.

Irlbo

Sinn Fein would be a perfect coalition partner for Fianna Fail,as they are very much the same,all things to all people,socialist yet pro capitalist,internationalist yet deeply nationalist,secular yet passionately catholic,they are a party which waves whichever flag you want them to,their membership is a diverse mix,militant republicans,nationalists,pan-nationalists,career driven ego-maniacs,socialists,communists,marxists,no other party could cater for people which such opposing ideals,theres no doubt that they have a strong community base in particular areas,due to good groundwork espiecially on bread and butter issues,but to answer the threads question?,just look at their participation in Stormount,and being all to eager to hop in bed with the DUP,shouldnt think throwing away afew ideals would be a big deal in regards Fianna Fail

Bob Z

FTA69 wrote: »

I find it hilarious that some people are still suscribing to this view of a Machiavellian/Marxist/Fascist/insert-dastardly-term IRA Army Council using Sinn Féin to subvert the state etc when the fact of the matter is that they are simply a run of the mill party well on the road to political reformism. There's nothing special about them, no more than the Worker's Party of the late-80s.

Well i thought they were marxist but i didnt think they were Machiavellian/Fascist/insert-dastardly-term

Nodin

barneyeile wrote: »

A run of the mill party? Are you SERIOUS? Would you trust a political party that used to have it's own private army?

Well, at one stage or another Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, and what was Democratic Left (now integrated into the Labour party) all had some form of paramilitary association. So did the DUP for a while. It's not really that much of a show stopper.

andrewh5

Sand wrote: »

SF arent a run of the mill party. In most parties or organisations the phrase "they know where all the bodies are buried" is a metaphor, not the literal truth.

Absolutely! They have a fair number of (ex) terrorists, murderers and criminals in their membership as well. There aren't many other political parties with convicted murderers in their ranks.

Nodin

andrewh5 wrote: »

Absolutely! They have a fair number of (ex) terrorists, murderers and criminals in their membership as well. There aren't many other political parties with convicted murderers in their ranks.

Only if you confine it to current times and Ireland. And forget that not all 'murderers' get convicted.

Mickdots

FTA69 wrote: »

I find it hilarious that some people are still suscribing to this view of a Machiavellian/Marxist/Fascist/insert-dastardly-term IRA Army Council using Sinn Féin to subvert the state etc when the fact of the matter is that they are simply a run of the mill party well on the road to political reformism. There's nothing special about them, no more than the Worker's Party of the late-80s.

exactly!!

its history repeating itself!! sinn fein are doing what the sticks did 25 years ago!! there gradually falling away!!

Permabear

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Bob Z

donegalfella wrote: »

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It might have originated with Marx but isn't there different types of types of socialism?

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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...and to try to label all types of socialists as marxists is feckin pedantic s/hite talk to the rest of us.

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well it could also be called a form of genetic fallacy, but occassionally I just call it like I see it.

And I'm being perfectly civil, ty:D.

FTA69

barneyeile wrote: »

A run of the mill party? Are you SERIOUS? Would you trust a political party that used to have it's own private army? A United Ireland remains their only goal and that has been parked for the foreseeable future by the people of this Island. As a result they should be defunct.

A United Ireland isn't their only goal, you're only spoofing now. Technically on their constitution they are calling for a Democrati Socialist Republic, in reality that idea has now been watered down to an "Ireland of Equals". Unity isn't their only policy.

The fact is comes from an armed tradition isn't anything new inan Irish context. The likes of Pat Rabbitte was a former member of the Official IRA as was Pronsios De Rossa, both leadership figures in the Labour Party. A Taoiseach of this country actually brought arms into Ireland to equip subversives.

The Provisional IRA now exists in name only, SF are no more distinct than anyone else in their mediocrity.

Permabear

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