If Sinn Fein was in Power in coalition. Would they stick to their ideals?

FTA69

donegalfella wrote: »

From this, it seems clear that socialism is a theory based on the works of Marx and Engels, and that it is therefore Marxist.

The term socialism existed before Marx began his theses; while he did coin the term "communism", the concept of socialism preceeded him. In Capital he himeslf looks at the different types of socialism, such as primitive or crude socialism (mechanical socialism) and what he described as scientific socialism. Fabian Socialism is also another concept distinct from Marxist socialism. As I said in my earlier post Marx envisioned a society were the industrial workers would seize the means of production and private property would be abolished. Marxism also contains such elements as the labour theory of value and most importantly dialectics, the concept of historical progression ultimately leading to an evolution into a classless, or communist society.

Now, perhaps you would like to explain the aspects of Sinn Féin policy that correspond with the above?

And this explicit association with a Marxist revolutionary means nothing?

Nothing at all. All it means is that Sinn Féin are attempting to use radical, rhetorical imagery in order to convey the impression that they are somehow distinct and on edge when in reality they are centre-left.

Yes, that's it exactly. It's Connolly's reflection on the concept of "Sinn Féin," which he very explicitly understands as a Marxist concept.

He provides his own analysis on what "Sinn Féin" should entail, as I said he was never a member of the party and in its initial stages that party was distinctly capitalist and reformist.

Connolly linked radical socialism with the national question, an alliance that has never been fully disentangled since, as evidenced by his proud place on the Sinn Féin website today.

The concept that Republicanism should be linked with social struggles was around long before Connolly. As far back as the United Irishmen Tone spoke of the "men of no property"; the likes of Fintan Lalor and Mitchell spoke of the social injustices in Ireland and the need to connect with those. Robert Emmet's manifesto spoke of nationalising church land and the creation of a Republic based on egalitarian principles. The IRB gave much focus to the issue of the peasantry and land agitation. Connolly rounded these ideas up and provided a succinct analysis of the situation in his book Labour in Irish History, he didn't invent the concept of the social and national aspirations being linked.

As I said, Connolly is also given pride of place amongst all shades of national opinion, some of which who are explicitly anti-Marxist such as Fianna Fáil who have a commemoration at his graveside every year.

You may argue that the radical Marxist element splintered off to form the Workers Party; I say only that the tree lies not far from the apple.

There were Marxists in the Provos too, and while the Provos did develop a radical social and economic policy in the late 70s and early 80s they were never a decidedly Marxist force, like the Viet Cong for instance.

Today Sinn Féin have broadly accepted the principles of capitalism.

Permabear

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barneyeile

Sand wrote: »

SF arent a run of the mill party. In most parties or organisations the phrase "they know where all the bodies are buried" is a metaphor, not the literal truth.

How very true!

anonymous_joe

Let's see, their ideals involve using force to achieve independance. Given that the people who were leading campaigns of terrorism oop North and across the water are still clearly major players in Sinn Féin, I'd prefer to pass.

If anyone who saw the debate before the last election in which McDowell rather easily wiped the floor with Gerry Adams, you'll realise that they lack the polish of Souther politicians. Furthermore, up North both the DUP and Sinn Féín have struggled to successfully govern. At the end of the day, both parties popularity stems from religious/nationalist perspectives - how would that work down South?

I recall they were quite against low corporation tax, etc, and were in favour of higher taxes for high income people, etc. Nothing that would be good for the economy of this country. I don't think a coalition partner would allow them to emasculate Irish business, especially given the global financial problems, so I doubt they'd stick to their ideals. Anyway, given how they were able to tell Americans they weren't Marxist in teh 80s while espousing it at home, married to the shall we say less than consistent evolution of their political values over the period of the Troubles I can safely say they've never been great at maintaining their ideals.

LordSutch

They Wont be in Power anyway, 'their ideals' stink, so the whole point of this Thread is erroneous.

Remember the heady days (Pre) the last election in the South, when some people were talking about the possability of Fianna Fail having to do a deal with the Shinners just to survive :rolleyes: When 'they' hoped for at least 15 seats :rolleyes: With Adams on the cusp of becoming the next President :rolleyes: with the total destruction of the SDLP up North too :rolleyes: and the fact that they might also eclipes the DUP . . .

In Reality 'if' Sinn Fein got more than four seats in the next Election it would be a miracle worthy of a 'Halo' appearing over the head of the 'Bearded One' - Fine Gael & Fianna Fail still wont touch them with a dirty stick anyway (and even that is after ten years decontamination)!

barneyeile

Camelot wrote: »

They Wont be in Power anyway, 'their ideals' stink, so the whole point of this Thread is erroneous.

Remember the heady days (Pre) the last election in the South, when some people were talking about the possability of Fianna Fail having to do a deal with the Shinners just to survive :rolleyes: When 'they' hoped for at least 15 seats :rolleyes: With Adams on the cusp of becoming the next President :rolleyes: with the total destruction of the SDLP up North too :rolleyes: and the fact that they might also eclipes the DUP . . .

In Reality 'if' Sinn Fein got more than four seats in the next Election it would be a miracle worthy of a 'Halo' appearing over the head of the 'Bearded One' - Fine Gael & Fianna Fail still wont touch them with a dirty stick anyway (and even that is after ten years decontamination)!

If any party in Leinster House ever went into government with Sinn Fein then they would be destroyed at the subsequent election. The vast majority of the electorate would be appalled. People tend to forget that Fianna Fail probably detest them the most since they have had to deal with them through the Good Friday Agreement! Fianna Fail and the DUP have more in common than you think!

lostexpectation

'Scenario for establishing a Socialist Republic' first published in An Phoblacht April 19th, 1980

lostexpectation

donegalfella seems to believe that sf and adams mean what they say, which is strange for him.

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Nodin

All we need now is the Cruiser and we've the whole set....

Erin Go Brath

All the SF bashing and yet they've never had anyone before the tribunals, unlike say FF and FG. SF shouldn't touch those parties with a bargepole if they have any respect for themselves.

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Erin Go Brath

SF have been reinventing themselves over the past few years, and have moved away from the bad old days of the provos, and embraced the peace process and the future. They probably need a new leader, a younger more dynamic type like Mary-Lou or Pearse Doherty to lead them.

SF will never be major players in the 26C, i agree. Their support hits a ceiling at about 10% and its hard to see them ever outpolling FF and FG in the 26C. It is quite possible with the dramatic drop in public support for FF, the recession, anti-lisbon sentiment, and other factors that SF could gain seats in the upcoming elections. If SF hold the balance of power, (and its very likely they will after some future General Election) then they suddenly become very revelant!

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Erin Go Brath

The 6 counties are a different jurisdiction with many problems that don't exist in the 26C. SF are battling away with intransigent unionism to try and get a fair shout for the nationalist people, and Irish culture. FF, FG etc never had the balls to organise up there so its impossible to say if they would have fared any better than SF.

FTA69

donegalfella wrote: »

The point here is not to argue about who coined the actual term "socialism." Saint-Simonianism hasn't exactly left its mark on the Western world, has it? Marx has been socialism's primary exponent, redefining it within his revolutionary framework as a stage of transition between capitalism and communism. Socialism is thus part of Marxist theory.

Indeed, it is part of Marx's theory, but socialism itself isn't confined to Marx. By your logic the Labour Party are Marxists because they sit in the "Socialist" bloc in Europe.

Have you read Gerry Adams' 'Scenario for establishing a Socialist Republic'?

I'm not interested in what Adams set almost 20 years ago. Have you read aany of their recent policies? As I said, Sinn Féin was radical left back in the 80s, it most certainly isn't now. Talk has moved away from socialism and toward the vague "Ireland of Equals" slogan. Sinn Féin does not have a class analysis of Ireland at all, but rather is fundamentally a northern nationalist movement with a reformist view of the state.

So their "rhetorical" use of socialist tyrants such as Castro means "nothing at all" to you?

You seem to think that because they sell Guevara merchandise or pay lip service to Fidel Castro they're inherently Marxist. You are simply looking at meaningless rhetoric and symbolism as opposed to their actual policies. Holding up a picture of Castro or Connolly no more makes you a Marxist than standing at Bodenstown á la Fianna Fáil makes you a diehard Republican.

But again, it was Connolly who drew all the disparate strands together, wasn't it? I'm not arguing that Connolly originated the idea; but he became its prime exponent and theorist.

Connolly provided a Marxist analysis of what was always a trend within Republicanism. The fact was and is that his analysis was never undertaken by the wholesale Republican Movement or the Sinn Féin party. Éirigi and the IRSP are the only parties which would hold Connolly's ideas up as their ideological fulcrum.

So why do they repeatedly insist on a united socialist republic?

They don't anymore. They go on about an "Ireland of Equals", if anything they have diluted their former socialism in pursuit of middle-class respectability, the main reason why they are floundering today because they fell between two stools.

I've already asked you twice to provide me an example of Marxist policies within Sinn Féin today, each time you have failed to do so. Again I'll ask, where does Sinn Féin say it wants the industrial proletariat to overthrow the bourgeoisie and abolish private property. Because those two tenets are exactly what Marxism entails.

FTA69

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Let's see, their ideals involve using force to achieve independance.

Armed struggle was never an "ideal", it was a tactic, a way of realising an ideal.

Given that the people who were leading campaigns of terrorism oop North and across the water are still clearly major players in Sinn Féin, I'd prefer to pass.

So do you think that people shouldn't vote Labour because it contains former Official IRA members such as Pat Rabbitte and Pronsious De Rossa?

If anyone who saw the debate before the last election in which McDowell rather easily wiped the floor with Gerry Adams, you'll realise that they lack the polish of Souther politicians.

I wouldn't say they lack polish. Adams is a very effective debater on home ground, and I remember him battering Ruairi Quinn on a debate on social issues on the Late Late. The problem with the Sinn Féin leadership is that it is entirely northern (even Belfast) based and hasn't a clue about southern politics. It's entire onus is toward the north and the nationalist community which elects it there, hence they feel the south should be focussed on that too. This is why they'll start warbling on about all-Ireland agendas and the peace process to a southern electorate which couldn't give two f*cks about that sort of thing. The only time they surged was when they began providing radical leadership to working people in Ireland.

Furthermore, up North both the DUP and Sinn Féín have struggled to successfully govern. At the end of the day, both parties popularity stems from religious/nationalist perspectives - how would that work down South?

Hard community graft and the fact they were different to the rest of them worked wonders for them here.

I recall they were quite against low corporation tax, etc, and were in favour of higher taxes for high income people, etc.

You're somewhat behind with the times. Sinn Féin before the last general election stated they wouldn't raise corporation tax at all, or any tax for that matter. Which made them look like eejits when it was clear they couldn't pay for all the stuff they were promising. Gerry Adams even stood up in a chamber of commerce and said "Sinn Féin is a pro-business party".

Nothing that would be good for the economy of this country.

Well free-market capitalism isn't doing great by the world economy at the moment is it?

Anyway, given how they were able to tell Americans they weren't Marxist in teh 80s while espousing it at home, married to the shall we say less than consistent evolution of their political values over the period of the Troubles I can safely say they've never been great at maintaining their ideals.

I'll agree with you here, this problem is consistant with Irish Republicanism over the years, I have my own idea as to why this is the case.

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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Total cack and a complete misrepresenation.

SF Policy wrote:

As Ireland becomes a more multi-cultural country, the challenge is to embrace our growing diversity as a source of strength and opportunity. To do this we must begin by opposing racism, discrimination and intolerance of any kind wherever it occurs.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/policies/document/118

donegalfella wrote: »

where they have spent more time bickering and squabbling than they have attempting to govern.
.

(Completely unlike their unionist bretheren. Every day poor Willy Mc Crae crys a tear, because Gerry won't come for tea....)

Considering they were actively trying to bump each other off not too long ago, its a considerable improvement than hitherto.

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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It's fairly well known what that refers to - the British Army and/or rule from London - and it most certainly does not entail the mass expulsion or rejection of "Poles and Lithuanians and Latvians and Slovaks and Americans".

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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I have to say this must be a new edge to the Political Sciences - analyisis by T-shirt.

Given that Thatcher occupies a place somewhere between Satan and Cromwell within both Irish republicanism and with nationalists in general (not to mention a fair few British people) its hardly suprising that kind of thing exists, though you may of course question its taste.

Are you going to actually address the parties policies as outlined in the link I provided any time soon, or will we be hearing more from the T-shirt think tank?

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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I doubt they apply to General Pinochet either, which is about as relevant.

donegalfella wrote: »

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...a godwin-esque Red herring. And there I was, not mentioning Hitler above.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Really? What University? Could we see the source of this accusation and some evidence please.

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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Vague jibes will aid you not at all. Try Pictures of Angelina Jolie naked or in some state of undress. They won't be relevant or help you either, but they're easier on the eye.

donegalfella wrote: »

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What I think is that you have nothing to back up your rather definite and quite specific accusation that the policy document you refuse to address directly is the result of "cutting and pasting from American universities' diversity statements. "

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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I see the T-shirt Think tank is back from lunch.

Hardly, as pointed out earlier.

Time for a recap. So far you've stated -

donegalfella wrote:

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....but when asked to address how this statement can be made when one reads the following....

Sinn Fein wrote:

As Ireland becomes a more multi-cultural country, the challenge is to embrace our growing diversity as a source of strength and opportunity. To do this we must begin by opposing racism, discrimination and intolerance of any kind wherever it occurs.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/policies/document/118

....you're off to the T-Shirt shop.

When called up on this, we are treated to a massive red herring, and the accusation that the polices result from

donegalfella wrote:

cutting and pasting from American universities' diversity statements.

And when taken to task for this and asked for sources -

donegalfella wrote:

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I think its fairly clear whose out to deflect and evade here. Now, are you going to address the policies as laid out on the Website? You certainly weren't adverse to grabbing quotes from here and there amongst their statements when you thought they might be bent to your argument.....

Mr.Micro

To comment on the OP, Sinn Fein have had to change tack over the last number of years, at least from a public perspective to make them more voter friendly. I think privately their ideals are still there. The moderate has for the moment supressed the extreme elements of Sinn Fein. If they were in power I think that they would behave exactly as the Greens, as not to do so would mean that they would lose their chance to be in Government. In power they could pursue their agenda more effectively than on the fringes. Words or spin are never in short supply when it comes to Sinn Fein so their ideals would be dressed up to suit.