If Sinn Fein was in Power in coalition. Would they stick to their ideals?

Permabear

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camel toe

donegalfella wrote: »

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brainwashed west brit. sinn fein are not a xenephobic racist party u ****ing retard.

FTA69

donegalfella wrote: »

Without Marxism there would be no such thing as the Labour Party, or the Socialist bloc in Europe. Obviously these parties are trying now to moderate their militancy after the communist bloodbath of the twentieth century, but the underlying ideology is still there, surely?

Right, so now the Labour party and the "socialist" bloc in the European Parliament is Marxist as well? Go on away will ye. None of these parties believe in the working class seizing the means of production, none of them suscribe to any of the ideas set out in Capital or the Manifesto but yet because they might use the Starry Plough or whatever as a logo they're Marxist in your eyes. That is simply silly a chara.

Marx influenced much of modern thought in the fields of politics, economics, philosophy and sociology. The fact we have trade unions, universal education etc are all down to his ideas; however that does not make one a political "Marxist" which implies one believes in the transition toward communism and a classless society. Gerry Adams or Sinn Féin doesn't believe in that, never mind the likes of Joan Burton.

Sorry, but this idea of an "Ireland of Equals" still sounds vaguely socialist to me.

Oh it's vaguely left-wing alright, and Sinn Féin are on the social and economic left broadly speaking, I'm not denying that at all. What I am telling you is that they aren't Marxist Communists.

How are Sinn Féin going to make sure that Michael O'Leary, Bono, a gangland thug from Limerick, my next-door neighbour, and I are all rendered "equal"?

Well up until recently they supported universal access to education and free healthcare (the healthcare lark has since been dropped). If you listen to Adams speak about economic policy he continually alludes to the Nordic countries. In other words, they are in favour of a social democratic welfare state akin to Sweden, not a revolutionary Marxist programme like the Viet Cong.

That's not how Sinn Féin describes itself. From its website:

So what? Bertie Ahern calls himself both a Republican and a socialist, is he the inheritor of Connolly's legacy as well. Again, you have not provided me any example of specific Sinn Féin policy which is consistant with radical Marxism, not one, despite me asking you three times now. All you can do is pick up on external imagery, "I mean, they have a poster of Castro etc...". I'm asking you to provide me an example of them preaching a dictatorship of the proletariat. But of course you can't, because at the end of the day they aren't Marxist.

I do seem to be guilty of that outlandish assumption, all right.

Yep. And you obviously haven't a clue about the nature of Irish Republicanism if you think every utterance or slogan is an adequate representation of a certain leadership's motivations. Reference to the IRA and Castro and all these other on-edge radical elements are simply a smokescreen for the fact that in effect they are complete reformists. The likes who give out sh*t about Iraq and then invite George Bush to Belfast.

I'm amazed at the lengths you'll go to disassociate Sinn Féin from the merchandise on sale in their own store. I don't see any Statue of Liberty T-shirts on sale there, do you?

The fact they sell IRA merchandise has nothing to do with their economic policies, many Irish political parties glorify armed organisations.

Even today's "toned down" Sinn Féin openly state that they wish to turn Ireland into a "socialist republic." They refer repeatedly to their wish to instate "a new social and economic order in Ireland." They say "we want to redistribute resources in a positive way." No, they obviously don't explicitly refer to abolishing private property—but this is still highly charged Marxist language.

Not really, Marxist language would involve them going on about "dictatorships of the proletariat", "the means of production", "revolution", "class war" etc. They are just using the language of those on the broad, non-Marxist left e.g equality.

You can't "redistribute resources," instate "a new social and economic order," and create a "socialist republic ... of equals" without using the power of the state to pursue Marxist principles.

You can do it through a high-tax, high-spend economy akin to Sweden.

FTA69

donegalfella wrote: »

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You haven't a clue. Sinn Féin never supported the Nazis and as a party had nothing to do with the IRA at that time.

Even the IRA never supported the Nazis, no more than they supported the Communists anyway, whom they were also asking for guns.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Dudess

camel toe wrote: »

brainwashed west brit. sinn fein are not a xenephobic racist party

While I agree with you about Sinn Fein, an Irish person isn't a "west Brit" just because they don't support that party. The expression "west Brit" is old and tired and often completely misused. I don't support Sinn Fein and I'm far from a west Brit.

LordSutch

FTA69 wrote: »

Sinn Féin never supported the Nazis and as a party had nothing to do with the IRA at that time.

Even the IRA never supported the Nazis, no more than they supported the Communists anyway, whom they were also asking for guns.

I dont think there is any conflict in exchanging the titles of the two protagonists above (apart from scale), both very adept at Torture, both Natural born Killers, both supreme at Rhetoric, both excellent at preaching to the converted, both steeped in Evil, both claiming to be 'Right', both ultra Nationalistic & blinkered, both 'thankfully' now defunct.

I refer of course to the IRA & the Nazi's ...

oscarBravo

camel toe is banned for a month for his dazzling display of compelling rhetoric.

Dudess

Camelot wrote: »

I dont think there is any conflict in exchanging the titles of the two protagonists above (apart from scale), both very adept at Torture, both Natural born Killers, both supreme at Rhetoric, both excellent at preaching to the converted, both steeped in Evil, both claiming to be 'Right', both ultra Nationalistic & blinkered, both 'thankfully' now defunct.

I refer of course to the IRA & the Nazi's ...

And yet, loyalist paramilitaries actually have a connection to neo nazi organisations... what do you think of them?
Some of the stuff you've said there isn't true by the way. You have no proof the IRA was entirely comprised of "natural born killers" (ditto the nazis for that matter), the IRA also wasn't "steeped in evil" - it's naive and sensationalist to merely dismiss the IRA or indeed the nazis as an "evil" organisation, like something out of a comic book or horror film. It could be argued Hitler, Goering, Goebbels, Klaus Barbie, Himmler were evil, but there were plenty of very "normal" people who got caught up in the machine. As for the IRA, who was their Hitler, Goebbels, Goering et al?
Oh and the IRA didn't set up thousands of concentration camps. Plus, their brand of nationalism was very, very different to that of the nazis, whose brand of nationalism was all about superiority. Comparing the IRA to the nazis is something Kevin Myers does - i.e. it's not very effective arguing.

Disclaimer: I don't support the IRA and I think they were murdering bastards. However I think it's just a tad disproportionate to compare them to the Nazi Party...

Permabear

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lostexpectation

so is the answer to the question yes or no donegalfella, one word answer please

Permabear

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lostexpectation

the topic of the thread...

Permabear

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lostexpectation

incredible

LordSutch

Dudess wrote: »

And yet, loyalist paramilitaries actually have a connection to neo nazi organisations... what do you think of them?

They are also Scum (just Scum of a different colour).

Dudess wrote: »

Disclaimer: I don't support the IRA and I think they were murdering bastards. However I think it's just a tad disproportionate to compare them to the Nazi Party...

That is why I said in my very first sentence (Post#69) "Apart from Scale" so you would be aware that I was talking 'Proportionate Evil' because obviously the Nazi's plied their trade on a much 'Grander Scale' . . . .

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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It's propagandist, its not exactly cute and fluffy, and it has nothing whatsover to do with what we're discussing.

You're again evading reading the policies and responding to them when it suits you, because it undermines your false claims. When asked to do so, you've not only gone to the old "O NOES-teh HITLER!!!!!!" red herring, T-shirt analysis, but also made false allegations of plagarism ("cutting and pasting from American universities' diversity statements." )

In the light of your complete failure to provide back up, you havent even had the decency to withdraw the remark

Again - you stated

"Sinn Féin" speaks to the Ireland of the past, the Ireland of protectionism, guns, bombs, terrorism, and fractious civil infighting over minor variants of Christianity. It's all in the past. Still want the Brits out? What about the Poles and Lithuanians and Latvians and Slovaks and Americans, too? Sorry, but the uni-cultural Ireland of nationalists' wet dreams is never going to happen.

When presented with the following

Sinn Fein wrote:

As Ireland becomes a more multi-cultural country, the challenge is to embrace our growing diversity as a source of strength and opportunity. To do this we must begin by opposing racism, discrimination and intolerance of any kind wherever it occurs.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/policies/document/118

you've refused to address it.

Yet you started your whole 'Sinn Fein = Marxists' rant based on a sentence referring to James Connolly on the Sinn Fein website in message 11.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57926234&postcount=11

Why is it one sentence from a website can be the base for pages of rants, yet the same website can't be addressed as a refutation of a statement or seen as indicative of policy?

FTA69

Camelot wrote: »

I dont think there is any conflict in exchanging the titles of the two protagonists above (apart from scale), both very adept at Torture, both Natural born Killers, both supreme at Rhetoric, both excellent at preaching to the converted, both steeped in Evil, both claiming to be 'Right', both ultra Nationalistic & blinkered, both 'thankfully' now defunct.

I refer of course to the IRA & the Nazi's ...

More spoofing. And my original point still stands. Sinn Féin had absolutely no contact with the Nazis whatsoever, at the time they had no connection to the IRA either. If you are to call the IRA fascists because they sought aid from the Germans you would have to refer to them as communists as well because they sought aid from the Russians. Perhaps they'll be sinister Arab nationalists next because they got guns off Ghadaffi?

I love the way you spelt "evil" with a capital E. Very dramatic. :rolleyes:

FTA69

donegalfella wrote: »

Again, Wikipedia states that "Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism." You seem to be arguing that Sinn Féin doesn't believe in transitioning towards a classless society. So why does their website repeatedly state that they want to establish a "socialist republic"? And why do they talk about an "Ireland of Equals"?

Right, so Marx's view on socialism is that it is a transitional stage on the route to Communism. Therefore logic would dictate that Marxism would entail supporting communism and the abolition of private property. Now, if a party did not support the advent of communism and the abolition of private property, then logic would also dictate that that party wouldn't suscribe to Marxism as a package, rather would suscribe to a few aspects of it. A bit like the vast majority of political parties today who espouse policies that are rooted in Marxist though, e.g free education and trade unions.

So they'd be in favour of a state such as Denmark, where people pay 63 percent income tax and 25 percent VAT on everything, even food and children's clothing?

I'd sooner be sick in Sweden than here.

I have noted repeatedly their desire to turn Ireland into a socialist republic. Marx himself understood socialism as a transitional stage on the way to communism. So Sinn Féin's advocacy of socialism is entirely consistent with Marxist principles.

It isn't consistant if they don't believe it is a transitional stage, rather an end in itself.

They are clearly trying to disassociate themselves from the legacy of their radical Marxist stances. But their policies and their ideology are still quite obviously Marxist. If not, exactly where do they come from?

Like what policies? Nationalise the banks? Oh yeah, they don't support that. Or free universal health care? Oh yeah they dropped that as well. Or the proletariat controlling society and the elimination of business? Oh yeah, they never supported that in the first place. You're a great man for quoting off the internet, show me a few Marxist policies held by Sinn Féin.

Can you tell me what you mean by "reformist"?

Believing in the basic premise of capitalism and seeking to tinker with that system to make it fairer, as opposed to communist revolution.

Which armed terrorist organizations are promoted by the other Irish political parties?

Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael hold commemorations for IRA members every year.

Are other political parties selling IRA T-shirts?

Young Fine Gael have t-shirts with an armed Michael Collins on them. From a different era perhaps, but an IRA t-shirt nonetheless.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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But nobodys asked to go through the entire Sinn Fein website.

But you've time to browse the T-shirt section.

But you've time to find a sentence from James Connolly on it, lift it, extract what suits your argument, got to Wiki, get a definition of Marxism, throw it up there.......

You've still not withdrawn the unsubstantiated allegation of plagarism, I note.

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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...which is an opinion, based on a pre-existing bias, stated while clearly refusing to examine contrary evidence. Yet you're entirely willing to take each word that suits you as entirely, literally true from the same people. Being obtuse, employing a clear double standard......

donegalfella wrote: »

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None of which has anything to do, in actuality with your statement

"Sinn Féin" speaks to the Ireland of the past, the Ireland of protectionism, guns, bombs, terrorism, and fractious civil infighting over minor variants of Christianity. It's all in the past. Still want the Brits out? What about the Poles and Lithuanians and Latvians and Slovaks and Americans, too? Sorry, but the uni-cultural Ireland of nationalists' wet dreams is never going to happen.

- You're simply trotting out emotive generalisations, devoid of context. Next up we'll presumably have debate by 'victim list'.

By the way, when talking about

by getting into bed with communists, fascists, and terrorists worldwide, by associating itself with any thug, any dictator, any despot who can help fund its odious agenda

a question struck me - do you get so hot and bothered about the factual American governments historical alliances and liasons with figures as diverse as Pol Pot and Suharto?

donegalfella wrote: »

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Indeed I am.

I note now you're sliding away from your original claim of straightforward plagarism, without having the courtesy of withdrawing it.

donegalfella wrote: »

Do you really think the great minds of Adams and McGuinness came up with it all by themselves?

There are more than two members of the party.

Secondly, considering they began as "terrorists", were targeted by various groupings, survived for over two decades and are now included in the Government of NI, I'd say they were not without some intelligence.

donegalfella wrote: »

Democratic Socialist Republic of Ireland

Words which you've lifted from the Sinn Fein site (post 49) and to which you've added your own spin. Yet you dismiss a whole policy document on the same site out of hand. Thats the double standard that undermines whatever argument you might have had.

Permabear

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Bob Z

OK say people are saying they are left of Centre and others are saying that they are Marxist.

During the latest banking crisis didn't they agree with the Governments Position?

But if you read some of their literature dont they come across Marxist?

Isn't a case that because they were never in Power they are almost a blank slate? That to a certain extent they arent sure themselves what they are? They have Left wing, left of centre and even conservative supporters and members? And if they did get into you (and they) would really only know then what their politics were?

FTA69

Bob Z wrote: »

OK say people are saying they are left of Centre and others are saying that they are Marxist.

During the latest banking crisis didn't they agree with the Governments Position?

But if you read some of their literature dont they come across Marxist?

Isn't a case that because they were never in Power they are almost a blank slate? That to a certain extent they arent sure themselves what they are? They have Left wing, left of centre and even conservative supporters and members? And if they did get into you (and they) would really only know then what their politics were?

That makes sense.

kmick

My own take is coalition with FF would destroy them completely like it has the PD's and Greens.

FTA69

donegalfella wrote: »

So is your point that in order to be "properly" Marxist, a party has to subscribe to the whole Marxist "package"?

My point is that to be a Marxist you must suscribe to the idea of communism and the abolition of private property. As I said, it is possible to be influenced by Marxist perspectives on certain things, but to be a Marxist per se you would have to agree with its basic tenets. Being a Marxist and not believing in the pursuit of communism is like saying you're a Catholic who doesn't believe in the afterlife.

You'll soon be sick of Sweden when you get your tax bill.

They have a far better quality of life than we do in this sh*thole anyway. To be honest it is a bit silly to be extolling the virtues of unrestrained free-market capitalism in the current climes in which we find ourselves.

I wonder how much capitalism we'll have left in the Sinn Féin–run Democratic Socialist Republic of Ireland.

Probably the same amount we have now. After all, Gerry Adams says Sinn Féin is a "pro business party". Although you probably missed that because instead of looking at actual policy all you can do is seize upon policy documents from 20 years ago and a couple of posters to twist their position into whatever characature of Republicans you've already come up with.

It's not exactly "IRA—The Undefeated Army" or "I Still Hate Thatcher," though, is it?

Pure and utter nonsense. Down below you asked "Are other political parties selling IRA T-shirts?", in other words you thought the likes of Fine Gael etc didn't glorify armed Republicans. Now that it has been pointed out that they do you are trying to move the goalposts.

I don't see the distinction between the "Undefeated Army" crap Sinn Féin sells and the "I had people shot in their beds" Collins merchandise flogged by Fine Gael. After all in your eyes, it would all be the glorification of "terrorism" wouldn't it?