If Sinn Fein was in Power in coalition. Would they stick to their ideals?

Erin Go Brath · 19-11-2008 2:15pm

SF are about equality for everyone, healthcare as a right, and are particularly pro immigrant. And yet you compare them with the KKK? Are you for real, or just attention seeking?

BennyLava · 19-11-2008 2:22pm

"SF are about equality for everyone" ??????

I'll believe that when I see them support an Orange march down O'Connell St.

FTA69 · 19-11-2008 2:30pm

I seem to recall them supporting the right of the Love Ulster parade to march.

Nodin · 19-11-2008 2:31pm

It's a much abused term, particularily since 2001. In some cases it may be clearly applicable, in others not so. As a result I always use quotes.

So far, I don't believe I've apologised to anyone.

I deny your interpretation of what that is, which seems to be North Korea with Guinness.

Yet FF made the transition, as did FG, as did the ANC. So did many members of the older Israeli parties.

Unless you believe that each and every member of SF has a birthmark in the shape of some combination of sixes and armalites on the back of their head, and have some evidence to prove that they are indeed different and incapable of change? If so, please present it.

Yet the raison d'etre of the Ku Klux Klan is racism. Thats what they do. SF however, have shown no urge to purge the country of "Poles and Lithuanians and Latvians and Slovaks and Americans" and make it "uni-cultural". Neither have you presented evidence to that effect.

I note that you are now tacitly acknowledging the document to be the product of Sinn Fein, without having withdrawn your accusation.

You didn't answer my question re America and its dubious associations over the years either.

Permabear · 19-11-2008 2:46pm

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BennyLava · 19-11-2008 2:50pm

From my reading of different sources Love Ulster and the Orange Order are not the same.

As for the OP, if they were in power ( their most likely partner would be FF, and that appears to be the kiss of death for any small party), they would need to develop a lot more ROI relevant policies, currently they are to Ulster-centric to be attractive to a lot of voters.
Not to mention a party run from Belfast (a different jurisdiction), how pushed would they be to push ROI relevant policies

Permabear · 19-11-2008 2:50pm

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Permabear · 19-11-2008 3:01pm

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RedPlanet · 19-11-2008 3:09pm

We've all heard Fine Gael being the "Party of Collins".

Nodin · 19-11-2008 3:37pm

That is what I typed - "terrorists". You feel free to dispense with the quotes though.

...but would doubtless have no problem with a plan laying out the 'freemarket' 'entrepenurial' antithesis of same. If its not to your taste, then its not to your taste, but its hardly worthy of your earlier hysteria.

Yet none of those things have any bearing on your statement re a desire to rid the country of "Poles and Lithuanians and Latvians and Slovaks and Americans" and make it "uni-cultural".

You still haven't addressed their policy document on same, but are yet again using the Democratic Socialist Republic of Ireland line from their website.

You still haven't answered my question re America and your attitude to its past associations.

Seeing as the FG site has a link to the Collins 22 site
http://www.finegael.ie/links/index.cfm/pkey/666
does this mean that they too "glorify violence, terrorism and hatred"?

Why should Sinn Fein abandon links to the PLO, when the Irish State accepts a Delegate-General from the Palestinian Authority (in effect an Ambassador)? Surely links to non-European groupings such as it and the ANC make a mockery of your idea that their agenda is "unicultural"?

Permabear · 19-11-2008 4:21pm

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Nodin · 19-11-2008 4:40pm

What was that earlier about "semantic quibbling"? You seem hell bent on portraying the term in the most negative light possible.

So you keep saying, while refusing to address the evidence to contrary, and failing to bring forth any to back it up.

If it's about Sinn Fein now, why did you bring up the Nazis and later events during the period of armed struggle? There is now no campaign of violence after all.

Are Sinn Fein to be held to a standard thats designed uniquely for them?

I'm sorry but I don't do T-shirt Analysis. There is a link there to a site celebrating Michael Collins, a man who orchestrated, guided and planned acts of "terrorism" and violence. Are you saying thats different? If so, please state this clearly.

Again - the Irish State accepts a Delegate General from the Palestinian Authority. Why, therefore, should the Sinn Fein party break off contacts with the PLO?

And again, if the Sinn Fein party has links with organistations as diverse as the ANC and the PLO, doesn't this - in combination with the policy document - show that your claims re "uni-cultural" agendas is simply untrue?

Permabear · 19-11-2008 6:53pm

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Nodin · 19-11-2008 8:17pm

Thats perfectly ok. If you could trouble yourself to keep your objections the reasonable and fact based side of hysteria, we'll all be happy.

That doesn't really answer any of the questions I've put to you. Would you like to try again?

Permabear · 19-11-2008 8:43pm

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Sand · 19-11-2008 8:49pm

Dont worry - theyll figure the details out AFTER they get your vote.

Nodin · 19-11-2008 11:07pm

And behold, the loaded questions and the attempted shift of goal posts.....Suffice to say I've no exact idea. Collectivising the farms would seem unlikely though. Nor is there any mention of seizing property and redistributing it. Making sure the minimum wage is kept in line with inflation maybe. A check being kept on outsourcing outside the EU maybe. Maybe ensuring theres more worker representation at management level, maybe encouraging profit sharing and job sharing, maybe not.

Neither have I any exact idea what Fine Gael mean (exactly) by "preserving, enhancing and sharing prosperity". If there isn't prosperity, how can they enhance it? How do they share it? Does this mean I have to share with somebody who doesn't deserve it as much as I do? Does this mean I can preserve mine so he can feck off and enhance his bloody own? I've no clue. Neither, I'd say, have you. I doubt it very much though if its anything extreme, and don't intend to start screaming "Stalinist" or "Nazi" at Enda Kenny any time soon.

My request was that you answer the questions put to you and stop ranting on in an hysterical manner. I asked that your objections be based in fact, rather than hysteria. Instead we get not objections, but a set of loaded questions....Lovely.

Now - There is a link on the Fine Gael site there to a site celebrating Michael Collins, a man who orchestrated, guided and planned acts of "terrorism" and violence. Are you saying thats different? If so, please state this clearly.

The Irish State accepts Delegate Generals from the Palestinian Authority. Why, therefore, should the Sinn Fein party break off contacts with the PLO, when the Irish state welcomes its full time envoys?

And again, if the Sinn Fein party has links with organistations as diverse as the ANC and the PLO, doesn't this - in combination with the policy document as seen on its site - show that your claims re "uni-cultural" agendas is simply untrue?

Permabear · 20-11-2008 12:08am

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FTA69 · 20-11-2008 1:23am

FTA69 · 20-11-2008 1:26am

Permabear · 20-11-2008 1:46am

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Permabear · 20-11-2008 1:48am

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FTA69 · 20-11-2008 2:00am

But many things that are Marxist-derived are now taken for granted. The concept of trade-unions is from Marxist thought, as is free education. Marx has influenced many spheres and even most capitalist parties have now accepted elements of his ideas. Elements mind you.

Well a Marxist or a communist would view it as a transition. I suppose it is what you make it yourself, the fact is that the majority on the broad political "left" don't support a move toward communism at all.

It's very funny, I love a well-written rant. Still though, it's hardly representative to be fair.

Well it's a fact they said they wouldn't raise any taxes during the last general election, but it's possible they've returned to their original policy. Bear in mind I'm not advocating Sinn Féin, they'd sell their own grannies to achieve a modicum of state power.

Well you're goosed so because the PDs are gone!

I didn't "enjoy" it like, but I wasn't ashamed of what I did; never.

I don't believe anyone should feel ashamed about what job they do. Bar car clampers. Those f*ckers should be shot in both legs and left to die.

Permabear · 20-11-2008 2:30am

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Permabear · 20-11-2008 2:46am

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FTA69 · 20-11-2008 2:47am

Not at all, Sinn Féin would assault their ears with talk of the All-Ireland Agenda, Inclusive Party Politics and an Ireland of Equals. I'd sooner take the f*cking shotgun to be honest.

Anyway, I think this debate has run its course. I'm away to bed now, have a good night.

Permabear · 20-11-2008 2:49am

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Nodin · 20-11-2008 10:08am

A party containing some unrepentant ex-"terrorists" would be a valid enough description. "socialists" of some description too. My efforts have been to point out to you that they aren't some bunch of hard line Marxists, or racist xenophobes. Far from it.

Aren't we all. However theres nothing wrong with it as an aspiration. If you can find a party that states that it believes in dignified and well paid jobs for most and absolute crap for the unlucky and neglected or just too slow to make it in the world, you might be as good as to link them so we can all have a look.

It could, taken out of context, mean many things. In reality it probably refers to an equitable tax burden, more access to 3rd level education for working class families and so on.

I'd imagine Perhaps it is. Certainly as both the terms "well paid" and "productive" are relative this is more than possible. However I'd again say that its more than likely aspirational, and linked to what I out lined earlier.

..however its highly unlikely they're committed to maintaining an unequal Ireland, or deliberately shaft a minority. It does lean towards the same general message as SF, though using different language.

Addressed earlier. Its aspirational. The ideal. Generally you'll find that getting things 100% right involves aiming to get things 100% and fluking the result, rather than saying 'We never get over 80%, lets be content with that'.

Irlbo · 20-11-2008 11:04am

APOLIGIES FOR LACK OF SPACES,COMPUTER SEEMS NOT ALLOW USE OF PARAGRAPHSMarxism!Communism!Socialism!,Im a republican and I dont see how these ideals would in anyway shape or form would benefit this country or the 32 county republic we strive for,especially in todays context,be honest I think its aload of goobledegoop,pie in the sky bullsh*t,yeah it be great if everyone was perfect and there was nobody better then anybody else,and everyone was treat equally,but its never going to happen,greed and the ambition for success and success is a primal human instinct,and just because you implement policy and ideals that espouse socialist,there are always people who will be corrupted and pardon the french but unfortunately some people are born c*nts,................To me left wing ideas are anathema to republicanism,especially Irish republicanism,which is steeped in romantic militant nationalism,dedicated patriotism,the opposite to socialism,which is more an internationalist belief,nationalism and religion are tools used by capitalists to blind their working class slaves,blah,blah,blah,and this is true to an extent,and yes I know your going to bring up James Connolly,the ICA and the trade union movement,and yes they are parts of history that gives us an identidy which looks after the down-trodden working class,and we should be proud,but trade unionism in Ireland I feel is not driven by driven by socialism/communism and so on,its driven by just a desire to look after the vunrable in the workplace,and thats were the link with socialism ends,as a trade union person myself most of my piers wouldnt have anytime or know anything about the communist manifesto or das kapital...............................My personal belief in terms of the all Ireland agenda and the kind of state we want running it,I want a 32 county republic,which is entirely sovereign,free from all foreign influence,private influence,and run by the people for the people,I dont want a state that will reject and ignore our proud culture in terms of language,sport,tradition,etc,and be a puppet to superpowers like the EU,and enforce laws that interfere with our ways,allow an army of immigrants come in and exploit our workers and not give a sh*t about our country or culture,and yes we should look after our vunrable an provide adequate welfare,but lets not we have a hell of alot of spongers aswell,we should not be providing for blights on society such as junkies and those who make a career from collecting the dole................You might think Im bit on the right in my ideas,but hey I dont get my views from books written by dreamers 150 years ago,I get them from life and experience

Nodin · 20-11-2008 11:22am

Yes, quite.

If Sinn Fein was in Power in coalition. Would they stick to their ideals?

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