If Sinn Fein was in Power in coalition. Would they stick to their ideals?

Permabear

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oscarBravo

donegalfella wrote: »

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Perhaps you, in turn, should read American author Judy Falck-Madsen's To Denmark With Love, and realise that every country has its promoters and detractors.

Permabear

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RedPlanet

donegalfella links to a site as ridiculous as rense.com and we are supposed to take it seriously? :rolleyes:

Permabear

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FTA69

Irlbo wrote: »

greed and the ambition for success and success is a primal human instinct

Not necessarily, greed is conditioned into people by the system in which they live. Personal development in a capitalist system is linked to how successful you are, how much moeny you own etc, all of this inculcates a sense of social cannibalism. People are inherently social beings and need to co-operate to survive, that's what led to the creation of society in the first place. Early societies were based completely on the collective, e.g American Indians.

To me left wing ideas are anathema to republicanism,especially Irish republicanism,which is steeped in romantic militant nationalism,dedicated patriotism,the opposite to socialism,

That's nonsesne to be honest. Left-wing ideas have always defined Irish Republicanism because you are ignoring the fact that because we were a colonised nation with an economic system which kept us the poorest in Western Europe our nationalism was distinct from that of the Germans or the Brits or whoever. All Irish Republican movements have appealed to the notion of social equality, from the United Irishmen (the first in Ireland to campaign against slavery) to Robert Emmet (nationalisation of resources) to the IRB (land reform) to the 1916 Rebels (cherishing the children of the nation equally) to Dáil Éireann (Democratic Programme of the First Dáil.)

Irish Republicanism at its best (and its most politically successful) always had to address the social and economic equalities that were and are in this country. When they focussed solely on nationhood etc they remained isolated (e.g William Smith O'Brien) because they had nothing concrete to offer the majority of this country.

To say that socialist or broad left ideals are "anathema" to Irish Republicanism is to ignore the programmes of the vast majority of Irish Republicans throughout the years, from Tone to Mellows to the likes of Bobby Sands.

I want a 32 county republic,which is entirely sovereign,free from all foreign influence,private influence,and run by the people for the people

Well if you want a Republic based on equality and free from private influence then the left is your only man to be honest.

I dont want a state that will reject and ignore our proud culture in terms of language,sport,tradition,etc,and be a puppet to superpowers like the EU,and enforce laws that interfere with our ways,

Who says Republican Socialists want to reject Irish culture? I'm a socialist (Marxian even) and I believe in the prominance of our games and our language. All the above you have described has been facilitated under the capitalist system which we have in this country.

allow an army of immigrants come in and exploit our workers and not give a sh*t about our country or culture

More often than not its the immigrants who are getting exploited by Irish bosses who determine lower wages. Of course instead of unionising all workers some people feel content to bash Pavel from Poland who is simply trying to make a life for himself.

You might think Im bit on the right in my ideas,but hey I dont get my views from books written by dreamers 150 years ago,I get them from life and experience

Well not everyone who disagrees with you has grown up in a bubble reading Marx either.

MG

Should the title of this thread be "if SF was in power in coalition, would they stick to their guns?";)

It seems unlikely that they would stick to their ideals as their economic policies, such as they are, would be unacceptable to any coalition partner interested in the next election. The choice would have to be between power and ideals, except perhaps on a narrow band of issues which do not impact greatly on the electorate outside of SF's natural base.

Irlbo

Your an intelligent guy FTA and I respect that,very articulate,well read,and I think we read from same hymn sheet,problem is where is there to go now,Sinn Fein are totally out the spectrum,and there doesnt seem be much out there

FTA69

Irlbo wrote: »

Your an intelligent guy FTA and I respect that,very articulate,well read,and I think we read from same hymn sheet,problem is where is there to go now,Sinn Fein are totally out the spectrum,and there doesnt seem be much out there

I don't know to be honest. Back when I was in Sinn Féin I firmly believed it was the vehicle which would advance real change in this country. The party was at 14% support at one stage, every other party was sh*tting itself and were at a complete loss as to explain why the party was so successful. The reason for that growth was a process of hard community graft which began in the 1990s. Republicans were at the forefront of all community issues in urban working-class areas and our activists had a credibility that others couldn't hope to match, the likes of Cherry Orchard in Dublin went from 20% odd turnout to over 50%, over half of those new votes went to the party. Likewise on the national stage they were the only party who articulated the struggles of working people and cut through the prevailing bullsh*t that everyone in this country was living it up. On the national issue they were active too, we saw nearly 15,000 people march in Dublin for Irish unity and the SDLP were eclipsed completely by the party. I genuinely thought Sinn Féin was set to make a real difference.

However within the party I saw a move toward the political centre, not just on the social and economic issues but on the national issue as well. The party seemed to be obsessed with image and the "meeja", and they began to taper the radicalism which made them so popular in the first place. With an overt focus on elections came the party being refined into more and more of a vote-catching machine, it wasn't a grassroots community organisation anymore, and as such the groundwork and activism dropped off. By now I can see the fact the party has no real interest in radical change in this country, rather a slight tinkering of the system so healthcare is a bit cheaper and wages are a small bit higher; and of course the acceptance that Britain has a right to sovereignty over this island. That isn't worth half the sh*t that Republicans went through since the 1970s in my opinion.

So that's my analysis of that project, but the point is what can be done now today from the Republican perspective. Lamenting over the percieved failure of Sinn Féin serves nobody. A new start must be made and in my opinion there are a number of groups and individuals out there who are doing just that. Republicans need to get back to street politics, they need to be seen as community leaders involved in the fabric of that community. That means residents associations, the GAA, the language groups, unions, boxing clubs, youth work etc, a movement is only as good as its ambassadors. Above this though, Republicans need to offer alternatives and a reasonable analysis of why people have no healthcare, or no houses, or sh*t conditions in work. We have to criticise and analyse the system which sees people paying mortgages on houses they won't own in their lifetime; we need to articulate an alternative socety to that. That is the broader political development that will have to take place.

Secondly there needs to be the ressurection of a Republican viewpoint, the argument that the "constitutional issue" isn't done and dusted, and that Britain remains in occupation of this country. We need to move away from the idea of nationalists getting one up on Unionists in Stormont and look at the bigger picture. However, as I said above people won't have an interest on that message alone if you can't be relevant to the struggles they face on a daily basis.

(I'll climb off the soapbox now!)

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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As I said, its an aspirational goal. We can't talk about what it looks like on paper, because essentially they've just got a vague goal there.

donegalfella wrote: »

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The problem back in the 80's was getting hit with the high tax band on a relatively low wage.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I've always taken the view that one should remove barriers to opportunity and to cushion the least well off amongst us. I presume thats what they're getting at.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I think FTA69's post is closer to the truth. There seems to have been a loss of the grass roots socialist activism that made them appealling.

FTA69

Over the past 15 years, Sinn Féin's has seen a huge loss of public interest in their two major agendas, republicanism and socialism.

Back in 1993 Sinn Féin could scrape aound one vote out of every 50 in the south of Ireland, the concept of Irish Republicanism was practically taboo and anyone who didn't suscribe to the notion that the Brits were the guarantors of peace was derided as a Provo. Fast forward that a few years and we see Fianna Fáil tripping over themselves to organise commemorations for the 1916 Rising after they scrapped it in the 1970s. Even Michael McDowell felt the need to call himself a Republican; probably because he saw that it was en vogue again and was trying his best to stop the term becoming syonymous with the Provos.

My point is that 15 years ago Sinn Féin was an irrelevant party, by the year 2002 they were becoming a serious force in Irish politics. Now they are stagnating, not because of Republican and socialist policies, but because they abandoned those policies and as such abandoned the core of the party itself. Now I'm not saying the Irish electorate were ready to raise the red flag and rush Leinster House, far from. But there remains huge discontent amongst many Irish working people.

Now they are disbanding, which leaves me and other liberals drifting in the political wilderness.

The difference being the PDs got everything they wanted. They didn't secularise the state completely, but it is clear that complete seperation of church and state is ongoing and is guaranteed to happen in the near future.

What disturbs me most is that we've gone from having a fairly dynamic, colourful fringe of smaller parties to having little other than a rudderless centre, in which nobody really stands for anything anymore

Yup, the PDs and Sinn Féin were by far and away the most ideological of the parties; and when you try and jump to the centre you will find it overcrowded.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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Vague waffle. Precisely. Hence what FTA is saying. I've been voting SF 21 years and am somewhat depressed with them at the moment.

Irlbo

FTA69 wrote: »

I don't know to be honest. Back when I was in Sinn Féin I firmly believed it was the vehicle which would advance real change in this country. The party was at 14% support at one stage, every other party was sh*tting itself and were at a complete loss as to explain why the party was so successful. The reason for that growth was a process of hard community graft which began in the 1990s. Republicans were at the forefront of all community issues in urban working-class areas and our activists had a credibility that others couldn't hope to match, the likes of Cherry Orchard in Dublin went from 20% odd turnout to over 50%, over half of those new votes went to the party. Likewise on the national stage they were the only party who articulated the struggles of working people and cut through the prevailing bullsh*t that everyone in this country was living it up. On the national issue they were active too, we saw nearly 15,000 people march in Dublin for Irish unity and the SDLP were eclipsed completely by the party. I genuinely thought Sinn Féin was set to make a real difference.

However within the party I saw a move toward the political centre, not just on the social and economic issues but on the national issue as well. The party seemed to be obsessed with image and the "meeja", and they began to taper the radicalism which made them so popular in the first place. With an overt focus on elections came the party being refined into more and more of a vote-catching machine, it wasn't a grassroots community organisation anymore, and as such the groundwork and activism dropped off. By now I can see the fact the party has no real interest in radical change in this country, rather a slight tinkering of the system so healthcare is a bit cheaper and wages are a small bit higher; and of course the acceptance that Britain has a right to sovereignty over this island. That isn't worth half the sh*t that Republicans went through since the 1970s in my opinion.

So that's my analysis of that project, but the point is what can be done now today from the Republican perspective. Lamenting over the percieved failure of Sinn Féin serves nobody. A new start must be made and in my opinion there are a number of groups and individuals out there who are doing just that. Republicans need to get back to street politics, they need to be seen as community leaders involved in the fabric of that community. That means residents associations, the GAA, the language groups, unions, boxing clubs, youth work etc, a movement is only as good as its ambassadors. Above this though, Republicans need to offer alternatives and a reasonable analysis of why people have no healthcare, or no houses, or sh*t conditions in work. We have to criticise and analyse the system which sees people paying mortgages on houses they won't own in their lifetime; we need to articulate an alternative socety to that. That is the broader political development that will have to take place.

Secondly there needs to be the ressurection of a Republican viewpoint, the argument that the "constitutional issue" isn't done and dusted, and that Britain remains in occupation of this country. We need to move away from the idea of nationalists getting one up on Unionists in Stormont and look at the bigger picture. However, as I said above people won't have an interest on that message alone if you can't be relevant to the struggles they face on a daily basis.

(I'll climb off the soapbox now!)

We are in agreement my friend,Sinn Fein is wholly different party to the Sinn Fein of 1921,1969,1994 etc,it has become another Fianna Fail clone,adopting a pan-nationalist PR agenda,keeping a lip service to republicanism,its amazing how conformist it is now,not an ounce of radicalism,dominated by media friendly acdemics who hold no experience of the National question,all who seem to extremely careerist,Mary Lou MacDonald etc,When I was in Sinn Fein it was men and women who really wanted to make a differnece in communities,espeacially in regards to drugs,there was a selfless campaign to rid the streets of drugs,and do as much damage to the dealer,men who served sentences for the armed struggle and had given away important parts on their lives for the cause were at the forefront,but now they have all been pushed aside,their not media friendly,replaced by career driven mouth pieces with no experience of the bad times up North,and no experience of life in general,where do we go from here,there is no viable alternative,these are bleak times for republicanism

Frankie Lee

Irlbo wrote: »

We are in agreement my friend,Sinn Fein is wholly different party to the Sinn Fein of 1921,1969,1994 etc,it has become another Fianna Fail clone,adopting a pan-nationalist PR agenda,keeping a lip service to republicanism,its amazing how conformist it is now,not an ounce of radicalism,dominated by media friendly acdemics who hold no experience of the National question,all who seem to extremely careerist,Mary Lou MacDonald etc,When I was in Sinn Fein it was men and women who really wanted to make a differnece in communities,espeacially in regards to drugs,there was a selfless campaign to rid the streets of drugs,and do as much damage to the dealer,men who served sentences for the armed struggle and had given away important parts on their lives for the cause were at the forefront,but now they have all been pushed aside,their not media friendly,replaced by career driven mouth pieces with no experience of the bad times up North,and no experience of life in general,where do we go from here,there is no viable alternative,these are bleak times for republicanism

Thats it down to a tee.

Bob Z

FTA69 wrote: »

I don't know to be honest. Back when I was in Sinn Féin I firmly believed it was the vehicle which would advance real change in this country. The party was at 14% support at one stage, every other party was sh*tting itself and were at a complete loss as to explain why the party was so successful. The reason for that growth was a process of hard community graft which began in the 1990s. Republicans were at the forefront of all community issues in urban working-class areas and our activists had a credibility that others couldn't hope to match, the likes of Cherry Orchard in Dublin went from 20% odd turnout to over 50%, over half of those new votes went to the party. Likewise on the national stage they were the only party who articulated the struggles of working people and cut through the prevailing bullsh*t that everyone in this country was living it up.

Thats sort of what i am asking in this question. SF seem to have a lot of working class support. But if they were in Power now and they agreed with helping the banks out and the cuts to education and the medical card would they lose this support?

FTA69

They're already losing it, sure why do you think that the last general election was an unmitigated disaster for them? (And believe me, it was a complete and utter disaster.)

Irlbo

As you said already FTA,its like the sticks,they went fully political and constitutional,there was a brief swell and support,that dwindled quickly and now look at them,struggling get 200 votes

CSC

Out of interest are there many people leaving Sinn Fein at local cumann level? And are these people joining new groups like Eirigi or rival parties like RSF?

José Alaninho

CSC wrote: »

Out of interest are there many people leaving Sinn Fein at local cumann level? And are these people joining new groups like Eirigi or rival parties like RSF?

Not from what I've seen at grassroots level, around Munster anyway. The few that have left usually just either go it alone or give up on politics altogether, the latter being far more common. Though as I said, I can't speak too much for other Cúige.

LordSutch

In answer to the opening Post on page one 'NO' ...........

But then, neither do any other Political Parties promise what they preach once they get into power, & the Shinners would be no exception to that rule, not that they ever will be in power (even with four seats) :rolleyes:.

I've been avoiding SF for over 30 years and am still somewhat depressed by them, they should be 'building bridges' with the Southern electorate & Unionists, instead of which, they still seem to antagonise & devide.

Saw Mary Lou on Q&A the other night - dear oh dear, the SF dogma & rhetoric is ingrained in her brain, right down to the Adamsesque hand gestures & the usual utterly obvious SF soundbites.

Let me be perfect clear about this, we have a mandate, we wont tolerate this, Irish people are not stupid, the Lisbon treaty is finished, we dont agree with bla bla bla ............