Outhalves

anonymous_joe

Right.

One of the things I noticed yesterday was that a few people in the media trotted out the old, isn't Rog one of the best in the world line?

80 minutes of bruising rugby later, and I can safely say that no, RoG is not one of the best out-halves in the world, though he remains a good outhalf.

What makes me curious now is, where do we find the next Irish outhalf? O'Gara is at this stage 31 years of age. He's not going to be our out-half in the long-term, hopefully.

This raises the question of who do we actually have at outhalf?

Far and away our best is O'Gara. However, he has a rather unfortunate habit of going missing internationally. Before a bevy of people rush to say he's great at club level, I watched him tear Leinster apart a few weeks ago. Yesterday I watched him bottle it for Ireland again. He's got one of the best boots in the world, but his kicking from hand was awful yesterday. I really think if he was more composed on the big days people really could say he was one of the best in the world, and it be true.

After that, who do we have?

Leinster only really have Sexton, and I think one or two of the younger lads like O'Malley can play outhalf, but I wouldn't swear to it.

At Munster there's O'Gara and I think Manning might have become eligible for Ireland? Not sure if he's up to being the no 10 for the national side yet though.

Connact have Andy Dunne and Ian Keatley...

Ulster can muster O'Connor whose seemed off form of late, and Ian Humphreys, whose not really getting his game of late...

Add to that I can think of Staunton and Hickey in England.

I didn;t mention Paddy Wallace because I think he's a shíte outhalf but a great 12, and should only be considered for that position.

But is that all the talent we can muster at out-half? Is there anyone else? Are any of them capable of stepping up to take over from O'Gara when he inevitably gives up as he grows older?

Sundy

Ronan O'Gara has always said he wanted to be second best to Dan Carter and well he achieved that pretty good on saturday.

As for the other options its hard to tell who will come good. We seriously need to start pushing through out halves. ( and props)

wixfjord

I have always said this about o gara and been laughed at on this forum before. Hes absolutely brilliant in front of the thomond crowd and very good place kicker but he is nowhwere near the likes of giteau, carter, spencer, cipriani when it comes to open play etc. Mafi and tipoki make him look a lot better going forward than he is. I think sexton, keatly and o connor are the three most realistic options. However I dont think sexton will ever be international quality (hope im wrong). Keatly has been going well at connacht and if they get into the hc next season he could really progress. I also like the look of o connor. On the subject of wallace he is most definately not a 10 but like you said a great 12 and I think should be tried there. I would rate him a lot higher than trimble and horgan for a centre position atm.

Stev_o

Keatley and O'Connor or both good prospects who are your averagely good outhalf kick decently and pass decently play heads up sort of rugby.

Sexton and Humphries are the outhalves who can play one match and totally tear the opposition a new one but then the next match fall to pieces. They share the same strengths and weaknesses, being great passers of the ball and very aware of putting people into space but one some of the worse kickers of the ball around.

Hickey, Staunton and Dune are all sub par im afraid. I had hope of Hickey doing well with LI but he's had some dreadful days with the boot missing something like 8 attempts at goal or even higher?

The faster O'Connor and Keatley get through the better, if Sexton learns to kick then their might be hope and Humphries will be behind O'Connor sadly.

jam_on_toast

IMO, the way to bring these young guys through is to play them funnily enough. The problem we have is that our international coaches (past and present) are short sighted and refuse to give them gametime. Playing O'Gara against Canada was a complete waste of everybodies time.

I dont believe in this "he's not experienced enough to play at intl level yet" crap. Its the coach's job to pick these guys and make them believe they deserve to be there. By only picking two natural OH in a squad of 41 is criminal.

Wales had a 19 or 20 year old playing against canada when hook came off.
The french had trinh-duc playing in the 6N last year, he was in the same underage 6N a year or two ago that the Irish won the grandslam in, with keatley in OH for us (i think).

A bold move needs to be made, fast track these younger guys in.

RichTea

Fantastic outhalf, on his day one of the very best in the world. Most definitely the best in the Heineken Cup by any measure.

Frankie Lee

Stev_o wrote: »

Keatley and O'Connor or both good prospects who are your averagely good outhalf kick decently and pass decently play heads up sort of rugby.

Sexton and Humphries are the outhalves who can play one match and totally tear the opposition a new one but then the next match fall to pieces. They share the same strengths and weaknesses, being great passers of the ball and very aware of putting people into space but one some of the worse kickers of the ball around.

Hickey, Staunton and Dune are all sub par im afraid. I had hope of Hickey doing well with LI but he's had some dreadful days with the boot missing something like 8 attempts at goal or even higher?

The faster O'Connor and Keatley get through the better, if Sexton learns to kick then their might be hope and Humphries will be behind O'Connor sadly.

I think the place kicking solution could be playing Johnny Murphy at full back (equally as solid and more of a threat going forward than Dempsey) giving the freedom to pick a good playmaker at 10 and not have to worry about place kicking.

RugbyFanatic

RichTea wrote: »

Fantastic outhalf, on his day one of the very best in the world. Most definitely the best in the Heineken Cup by any measure.

Any outhalf on his day can be world class.

The problem here is consistency. I don't care if someone played well in the HEC when they are playing utter ****e for Ireland.

But we have no one else. I saw Madigan (Blackrock) playing for Leinster youths a awhile back he was pure class hopefully he comes through soon.

Shelflife

Warwick isnt bad , and he should qualify under residency rules soon.

Sundy

Shelflife wrote: »

Warwick isnt bad , and he should qualify under residency rules soon.

Warwick cannot play for Ireland.

Shelflife

why? i was under the impression that he would qualify soon??

Sundy

He was capped at 7's for Oz which makes him ineligible.

anonymous_joe

RichTea wrote: »

Fantastic outhalf, on his day one of the very best in the world. Most definitely the best in the Heineken Cup by any measure.

Assuming you mean RoG, I don't deny that, but I won't accept he's good for Ireland when we need him. And given that he was playing behind the Munster pack, with two of the world's most highly rated centres behind him, and a Munster scrum half beside him, I can only assume the problem is a mental one.

Shelflife wrote: »

Warwick isnt bad , and he should qualify under residency rules soon.

Didn't he already represent Australia? At 7s if I'm right.

toomevara

Hook, ROG, Cipriani, Carter all in the ha'penny place of late next to Giteau, for me the best 10 in the world game at the minute...Showed Cipriani how its done at Twickers yesterday, and to be honest would have bought and sold either ROG or Carter....

jam_on_toast

toomevara wrote: »

Hook, ROG, Cipriani, Carter all in the ha'penny place of late next to Giteau, for me the best 10 in the world game at the minute...Showed Cipriani how its done at Twickers yesterday, and to be honest would have bought and sold either ROG or Carter....

hernandez is up there too. I'm a big fan of jones in a welsh shirt, he was brilliant in last years 6N. His club form is questionable to say the least tho!

anonymous_joe

jam_on_toast wrote: »

hernandez is up there too. I'm a big fan of jones in a welsh shirt, he was brilliant in last years 6N. His club form is questionable to say the least tho!

Like some kind of reverse O'Gara. :pac:

Yeah, Hernandez is quality. No doubt about that.

Amazotheamazing

jam_on_toast wrote: »

hernandez is up there too. I'm a big fan of jones in a welsh shirt, he was brilliant in last years 6N. His club form is questionable to say the least tho!

It's odd, but imo, welsh and leinster players step up when they play international rugby, if they can step up. Munster players, by in large, don't.

If you look at how the Welsh players play when playing for wales, it's at a far higher level than they achieve for the regions, Stephen Jones is a good example, as is Shane Williams, but in general, they find another level in the welsh jersey.

The same is true for players like BOD and Kearney for Ireland. Both play far better for Ireland than they do for Leinster. The opposite is true for Munster guys, POC and O'Gara barely improve their game at all. One notable exception is Heaslip, who looks good playing for Leinster, but is extremely ordinary playing for Ireland.

Stev_o

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It's odd, but imo, Welsh players step up when they play international rugby, if they can step up. Irish players, by in large, don't.

Fixed for your sake id be quick to change it aswell mate before mods see it

Amazotheamazing

I'm not trying to stoke inter-provincial crap, and I don't think it really reads like I am.

My point is most players find a higher level when they play for their country, I'm not so sure as many Munster players do. I don't know why that is either. It's just something I've been wondering about, do POC and O'Gara find a higher level for Ireland? Does DOC? Or Horan, Flannery and Hayes? I'm not saying they aren't good enough, they are, but it's notable that some players (like Kearney) do seem to be better for Ireland than they are for their province.

[Jackass]

I agree that RO'G was seriously shown up against Carter last night. I think the whole debate (in the media) about RO'G being one of (or even THE) best in the world can be put to bed. He's a fantastic players and for Munster he is superb, but he has never made half the impact at international level against the best out halves in the world. 2007 world cup was the most disapointing I've seen him play.

Of the players there at the moment, for my money there are only 3 that can make it. Sexton, Keatley & O'Connor. All though I have some doubts about Sexton making it at international level. His game control isn't what it should be and his place kicking is poor. It's all well and good having an out half who can create things and make breaks, but more important is an out half who can control the game. You also want a solid and consistant performer. Particularly in defence.

Then there are the very few who come close to having it all. Carter and Wilkinson are the only two I've ever seen.

anonymous_joe

[Jackass] wrote: »

I agree that RO'G was seriously shown up against Carter last night. I think the whole debate (in the media) about RO'G being one of (or even THE) best in the world can be put to bed. He's a fantastic players and for Munster he is superb, but he has never made half the impact at international level against the best out halves in the world. 2007 world cup was the most disapointing I've seen him play.

Of the players there at the moment, for my money there are only 3 that can make it. Sexton, Keatley & O'Connor. All though I have some doubts about Sexton making it at international level. His game control isn't what it should be and his place kicking is poor. It's all well and good having an out half who can create things and make breaks, but more important is an out half who can control the game. You also want a solid and consistant performer. Particularly in defence.

Then there are the very few who come close to having it all. Carter and Wilkinson are the only two I've ever seen.

I can add Hernandez to those two names. :pac:

marco_polo

[Jackass] wrote: »

I agree that RO'G was seriously shown up against Carter last night. I think the whole debate (in the media) about RO'G being one of (or even THE) best in the world can be put to bed. He's a fantastic players and for Munster he is superb, but he has never made half the impact at international level against the best out halves in the world. 2007 world cup was the most disapointing I've seen him play.

Of the players there at the moment, for my money there are only 3 that can make it. Sexton, Keatley & O'Connor. All though I have some doubts about Sexton making it at international level. His game control isn't what it should be and his place kicking is poor. It's all well and good having an out half who can create things and make breaks, but more important is an out half who can control the game. You also want a solid and consistant performer. Particularly in defence.

Then there are the very few who come close to having it all. Carter and Wilkinson are the only two I've ever seen.

On the point of control one need only look at James Hook to see that having all the skill in the world is not enough to be a top class fly half, without the ability to control a game as well. That is not to say that it will not come with time.

Sundy

Hernandez is a great player but his performances can be incosistant over the 80 minutes. Awesome one minute, very average the next. Italy v Argentina at the weekend was a good example of this.