Fianna Fail and Fine Gael: is there much Difference?

Elmo

oscarBravo wrote: »

I have to confess that I haven't the faintest idea what you mean.

All I am saying is that FG/FF have to go into Coilition. FG/FF must remerge after years of bitter division since the civil war. A grand coilition which would allow an actual opposition where not only a different view can resided but also an actual choice not just a Party that would only displace FF because the public felt that FF had been there for too long and we need "fresh" faces rather then an actual change. This is a stupid reason IMO to vote FG over FF.

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote: »

...not just a Party that would only displace FF because the public felt that FF had been there for too long and we need "fresh" faces rather then an actual change. This is a stupid reason IMO to vote FG over FF.

Don't get me wrong: given a choice between actual change (assuming it was change in the right direction), and more of the same, but minus the arrogance, I know which I'd pick. But given the choice between two similar packages, one of which includes smug arrogance, it's an equally clear choice for me.

I'm not sure how you think merging FF and FG would increase choice.

Elmo

oscarBravo wrote: »

Don't get me wrong: given a choice between actual change (assuming it was change in the right direction), and more of the same, but minus the arrogance, I know which I'd pick. But given the choice between two similar packages, one of which includes smug arrogance, it's an equally clear choice for me.

I'm not sure how you think merging FF and FG would increase choice.

It would point out to the public that FG and FF are the same party and that they aren't different. I understand your argument about smugness verus FG, but TBH FGs Holier than art thou attituded doesn't sit too well with me. And I don't see either as the lesser of two evils.

It would also put Labour in the driving seat of the opposition which is where they should be, and this would lead to Labour having a far strong voice.

I don't think an FG lead government will change anything so, Ireland under an FG lead government won't move it in any direction good or bad. IMO.

DublinWriter

It's hard to put any clear water between FF and FG, even their unofficial matra of "We're not the other guys" is becoming quite threadbare right now.

Pushing Civil War origins aside, they are basically the same centerist party these days.

Speaking as someone who came through the 80's, in a word, I'd say we're f*cked. Even more so than then. This is just the calm before the storm.

The reason I say this is because we have a complete lack of political capital in this country. We don't have visionaries of the caliber of Collins, Haughy, Lemass and Fitzgerald any more, personally flawed as they were.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

irish_bob

DublinWriter wrote: »

It's hard to put any clear water between FF and FG, even their unofficial matra of "We're not the other guys" is becoming quite threadbare right now.

Pushing Civil War origins aside, they are basically the same centerist party these days.

Speaking as someone who came through the 80's, in a word, I'd say we're f*cked. Even more so than then. This is just the calm before the storm.

The reason I say this is because we have a complete lack of political capital in this country. We don't have visionaries of the caliber of Collins, Haughy, Lemass and Fitzgerald any more, personally flawed as they were.

what a pessimistic outlook you have , thier is no reason why we should be f*ucked, all that is needed is a willingness to make some tough descisions , the country and the economy are baschically sound , we need a goverment who are willing to look further ahead than the next election , unfortunatly a goverment like that cannot include FF

Elmo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Not in the current dail, As I said it is unlikely that FF will do as well next time round and it is unlike that FG would do as well as FF which would bring that down.

Is having such similar political parties in the Dáil a good thing?

It would only work if Labour had more seats. Like back in 1992.

Labour should not have gone into power with FF rather demanded a grand colition.

FF = 68
FG = 45
LP = 33
PD = 10
DL = 4
GP = 1
IO = 4 (1 Indo FF)
CC = 1 (A labour Independent, Sean Treacy)

This would be very different to day with DL and PD gone from the Dáil.

But if FF/FG grand coilition had occur they would have had 113 seats, the FF/LP government had 103 (Including 2 independents they did not need) only 10 less seats.

Imagine Dick Spring and Albert Renolds on the Prime Time Leaders Debate and John Bruton reduced to a debate with Mary Harney

FTA69

Bob Z wrote: »

but i dont think people vote on policy anyway. I could be wrong but most i know seem to vote the way their parents and grandparents voted.

Spot on. That is the single biggest factor in people determining which party they will vote for. The situation we have here is actually quite a European anomaly where you have the two main parties who are completely identical.

Dob74

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Ireland, like most of Europe, is a centre-right country - it's only when you compare it to the US it appears to be leftist. The only leftist countries in Europe, I'd say, are the Scanadvian states (from experience) and Slovenia (from reports).

Curious to know how America is more advanced with regard to workers rights? They don't have a minimum wage over there and there's no mandatory holiday entitlements (as far as I know - open to correction).

Federal minimum wage is $6.50 an hour with the republicans in power for the last eight years. Different states can have higher rates. Holiday pay is quite poor alright, 2 weeks a year is all thats mandatory. But you can build it up or take unpaid leave. In saying that I have only been paid holiday pay in this country on rare occasions and each time I had to battle for it. But at least four weeks is law.

kevmy

Elmo wrote: »

An opposition has to be different otherwise it is pointless and isn't doing its job and that is the main issue.

I don't think the point of opposition is to be different rather to speak for the people who fell the government isn't speaking for them. Also you have to say what you believe. If you happen to believe in something similar to what the present government then you can't go around lying about it.

Having said that I think FG could be a bit more radical without betraying their principles.

Elmo wrote: »

Not in the current dail, As I said it is unlikely that FF will do as well next time round and it is unlike that FG would do as well as FF which would bring that down.

Is having such similar political parties in the Dáil a good thing?

It would only work if Labour had more seats. Like back in 1992.

Labour should not have gone into power with FF rather demanded a grand colition.

FF = 68
FG = 45
LP = 33
PD = 10
DL = 4
GP = 1
IO = 4 (1 Indo FF)
CC = 1 (A labour Independent, Sean Treacy)

This would be very different to day with DL and PD gone from the Dáil.

But if FF/FG grand coilition had occur they would have had 113 seats, the FF/LP government had 103 (Including 2 independents they did not need) only 10 less seats.

Imagine Dick Spring and Albert Renolds on the Prime Time Leaders Debate and John Bruton reduced to a debate with Mary Harney

In 1992 yes, but then if we go back to Cumann na Gael government ... Ireland has changed, deal with the realities as it is now. Looking back doesn't help that much.

Also you seem to think that by releasing Labour by themselves to the Opposition benches people will automatically flock to them. I don't think so.

People know FG and FF are essentially the same. If Lab want to become one of the main parties then they have to convince the people to vote for them. It's Lab failings, not FG or FF or the electorates that they haven't progressed.

They fcuked up in 92 by going in with FF after stating the wouldn't, they then proceeded to dance in and out of government with them for 2.5 years.

Even after they were slapped down they were given a golden chance after 2002 to become the main opposition. Everyone said FG were dead but they didn't take that chance.

FTA69 wrote: »

Spot on. That is the single biggest factor in people determining which party they will vote for. The situation we have here is actually quite a European anomaly where you have the two main parties who are completely identical.

I agree people shouldn't vote by how parents etc. vote however I will argue that for a long period of time there was clear water between FG and FF. These areas were in law and order, the economy, social issues and how to deal with the North. A lot of this issues have either been resolved (law and order of FG was mainly based on dealing with the old IRA and social wars of the 80's are essentially over) or have been accepted by all (talking with everyone in the North and giving up articles 1 and 2).

Elmo

They fcuked up in 92 by going in with FF after stating the wouldn't, they then proceeded to dance in and out of government with them for 2.5 years.

It funny but I think the ****ed up by going into power with FG. But they did lead those 5 years when Ireland came out of the depression it was in.

In 1992 yes, but then if we go back to Cumann na Gael government ... Ireland has changed, deal with the realities as it is now. Looking back doesn't help that much.

We could and we should always look back on our past so that we don't make the same mistakes. E.G. if Labour get 33 seats they might think of letting FG/FF go into government.

Even after they were slapped down they were given a golden chance after 2002 to become the main opposition. Everyone said FG were dead but they didn't take that chance.

By making a pact with FG, that was the reason. This put many from voting for Labour IMO.

Mr.Micro

The only difference between FF and FG is the G.

kevmy

Elmo wrote: »

It funny but I think the ****ed up by going into power with FG. But they did lead those 5 years when Ireland came out of the depression it was in.

You may be of the opinion that they shouldn't have gone in with either and I agree with you that they done well in government. But going from being very anti-FF to going into government with wrecked their credibility if they were going in with anyone they should have gone in with FG/DL from the start.

The lesson for any smaller party going in with FF is you get all the blame and none of the credit. They are sneaky politicians only interested in getting elected and getting into power for themselves. And fair play to them they are the best at it. But they fcuked Lab, they fcuked the PDs and they will fcuk the Greens

Elmo wrote: »

We could and we should always look back on our past so that we don't make the same mistakes. E.G. if Labour get 33 seats they might think of letting FG/FF go into government.

Fair enough but I don't see Lab getting 33 in the next election 25-30 would be doing massively well. They would probably top out at 27/28

Elmo wrote: »

By making a pact with FG, that was the reason. This put many from voting for Labour IMO.

True enough they didn't put Lab first. They made "get FF out" their main priority.

MG

Personnally I do think there is something of a difference but they certainly sit in the same range of the spectrum. If we call this centrist (it tends to swing between the centre right and centre left depending on electoral demands (especially for FF - some might disagree but I found the budget extraordinarily leftist)

Anyway, 70-80% of the electorate seem to be centrist. The advantage of having two parties filling this space is that governments seem to go stale after a few years and the determination that is required for successful government can only be restored by a spell in the opposition.

This is how I see the current situation - FF is completely stale having grown fat on power, while FG is showing signs that it is ready to lead.

Mr.Micro

FF=FG, but what's in a name? Look at New Labour in the UK, anything but socialist IMO. Blair was more Conservative than Thatcher. In democracies people tend to stick to centrist parties. New Labour once thought unelectable left wingers made the transition to centre and centre right in 1997 and since. It is no surprise that in Ireland we have 2 parties virtually the same and little talent between them.

Donnaghm

Their respective views on social issues and on the north contrasted starkly in the 1980s. It's difficult to say at the moment and I'm a member of yfg with the last 4 years.

lostexpectation

Biggins wrote: »

I hope not, there should always be a viable alternative barking at government heels.
If at the very least, it helps to keep the present lot in line at least to some extent!.

yeha but we have right right opposition and government rather then a nominally left v right battle that exist even in the US