Ireland <3 Lison Treaty

Vote09ireland

trying to explain lisbon coherently is like trying to explain the whole EU cohertly quite impossible

Lisbon was an attempt to sort out the whole system (like the constituional treaty was) and make it more efficient. This meant the treaty was huge and ppl like libertas could pick small things that would be controversial

It's funny that great things like the charter on fundamental rights was not mentioned at all during the campaign but ireland losing a commissioner was everywhere

ppl weren't stupid the government failed to see that they could lose it and didn't think about the problematic areas

razda07

ireland is not even free a hundred years and already we are thinkin about handing away our independence.

yes the eu has done good for us in recent years but why does this mean they have the right to annex us?

razda07

and to have the cheek to even mention us voting again just proves that the eu does no care about irelands interests. and ff letting this happen, allied with the eu to confuse us and bully us? ff are there to keep us in power we are not there to keep them in power. maybe its about time they did there job.

Eurosceptic2008

I wouldn't be getting too excited if I were the yes camp, given that 18% are still undecided. And remember that for all the talk of a "swing" to the yes side, the question is based on an assumption of declarations on tax, abortion, neutrality and retaining the Commissioner which don't even exist yet. When it becomes clear that declarations, unlike protocols, have no legal-standing, their attraction will quickly dissolve. The fact that even with these declarations, the yes side only has a lead of 3%, should worry them, considering they started the Lisbon I campaign with a double-digit lead. Among younger voters, the no's still lead by 8% too.

Furious-Dave

How many times does it have to be said that abortion is nowhere to be found in the Lisbon Treaty? And that we have already given up our neutrality by letting US war planes land in Shannon. Another point I'd like to make is that Finland currently sends troops to the EU, yet retains it's neutrality.

Eurosceptic2008

Furious-Dave wrote: »

How many times does it have to be said that abortion is nowhere to be found in the Lisbon Treaty? And that we have already given up our neutrality by letting US war planes land in Shannon. Another point I'd like to make is that Finland currently sends troops to the EU, yet retains it's neutrality.

Abortion was not an issue for me in the referendum, and in fact I favour allowing it in cases of rape and where there is a threat to the life of the mother. Nonetheless, it is arguable that the Charter of Fundamental Rights, in referring to the right to privacy (the same grounds given for Roe v Wade in 1974 by the US Supreme Court) could have an impact on our abortion law in terms of how the ECJ would interpret it. You also have to remember that the Maastricht Protocol mentions Article 40.3.3. - not the word abortion itself. Furthermore, Article 40.3.3. of the Irish Constitution doesn't mention the word "abortion" either. Rather it mentions the right to life of the "unborn", but that opens up a Pandora's box as to what the "unborn" means in legal terms, and whether life begins at conception.

djpbarry

Eurosceptic2008 wrote: »

Nonetheless, it is arguable that the Charter of Fundamental Rights, in referring to the right to privacy (the same grounds given for Roe v Wade in 1974 by the US Supreme Court) could have an impact on our abortion law in terms of how the ECJ would interpret it.

No, it does not. It is explicitly stated that our position on our abortion is protected. End of.

SalthillGuy

If we do have another referendum and the outcome is 'yes', do we then have a tie-breaker referendum.
After all it would be 1-1 at that point.

BlitzKrieg

do we then have a tie-breaker referendum

if there is a general election after lisbon 2 and a government is formed from political groups which side with the *no* side then yes they would require a third referendum to undo the changes made in the 2nd referendum.

WooPeeA

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

if there is a general election after lisbon 2 and a government is formed from political groups which side with the *no* side then yes they would require a third referendum to undo the changes made in the 2nd referendum.

No side parties and the government? :eek:

BlitzKrieg

EU politics never seem to be an issue except when there's referendum, so yeah unless someone could have take the momentum generated by the *no* campaign and turned it into a political platform your not going to see a lisbon 3 (if there is a lisbon 2 and the results is a yes).

SalthillGuy

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

if there is a general election after lisbon 2 and a government is formed from political groups which side with the *no* side then yes they would require a third referendum to undo the changes made in the 2nd referendum.

The government would be afraid to go near a general election while this is being discussed.
Another 'NO' would probably mean a change of government.

BlitzKrieg

SalthillGuy wrote: »

The government would be afraid to go near a general election while this is being discussed.
Another 'NO' would probably mean a change of government.

and would that government be formed of parties that will oppose any further attempt at Lisbon, or argue for a better deal etc?

Or will it by like all other general elections and the issue of europe will be ignored until a referendum is required?

cabinteelytom

We cannot be sure that Sinn Fein or Declan Ganley actually speak for the discontent that motivated the 53% of No voters.
We are in a situation where a significant proportion of the electorate could have no voice in politics, may never have their viewpoint heard-except when the occasional referendum is put directly to them.
That situation is:
* a high degree of concensus among the elites of the established political parties,
* strong central control by the political parties,
* subtle government control of the state-funded media,
* the unchallenged acceptance that Government should be 'business-friendly' (ie selectively listening Government) and in Ireland,
* the distorting effects, upon democracy, of state-funded NGOs which function as pressure groups (such as the Immigrant Council of Ireland) deeply involved in making demands of and criticism of Government policy.

The charge: Apparently rigourously democratic, our current Republic is an unstable exercise in 'group think'.

djpbarry

cabinteelytom wrote: »

We are in a situation where a significant proportion of the electorate could have no voice in politics, may never have their viewpoint heard-except when the occasional referendum is put directly to them.

Really? There's me thinking we've had 11 general elections in the last 25 years.

cabinteelytom wrote: »

strong central control by the political parties

What does that mean exactly?

cabinteelytom wrote: »

subtle government control of the state-funded media

What state-funded media? RTE? The same RTE that obtains approximately 50% of it's income from advertising and the other 50% from license fees paid for by the viewers?

cabinteelytom wrote: »

the unchallenged acceptance that Government should be 'business-friendly'

Unchallenged? Are you for real? Do we not have relatively powerful unions in this country?

cabinteelytom wrote: »

the distorting effects, upon democracy, of state-funded NGOs which function as pressure groups (such as the Immigrant Council of Ireland) deeply involved in making demands of and criticism of Government policy.

The ICI receive state funding? That's news to me. How much do they receive?

Dob74

djpbarry wrote: »

Really? There's me thinking we've had 11 general elections in the last 25 years.

87, 89, 92, 97, 02, 07. Six general elections in the last 25 years.

djpbarry

Dob74 wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

Really? There's me thinking we've had 11 general elections in the last 25 years.

87, 89, 92, 97, 02, 07. Six general elections in the last 25 years.

Sorry, that should have said 35 years. So, one election every 3 years or so, on average.