TV's with MPEG4 DTT decoder

copacetic

STB wrote: »

The majority of it was untrue. And I am not particularly happy that it went virtually unchallenged for so long. I have replied now but its a little late.

There was a lack of knowledge betrayed in the post, but the key point that I posted was in reply to the person above wondering was a currys LG TV mpeg4:

You are pretty safe with any brand name TV from Currys or PC World

Which I believe is true and posting that it isn't, probably won't help peoples confusion. Either way the MD of Currys posted it, so if there was an issue with the TV they would take it back.

Whatever about the other stuff, it would be great to see the MDs of other retailers come out with similar statements.

STB

copacetic wrote: »

Which I believe is true and posting that it isn't, probably won't help peoples confusion. Either way the MD of Currys posted it, so if there was an issue with the TV they would take it back.

Whatever about the other stuff, it would be great to see the MDs of other retailers come out with similar statements.

Okay but the reason that they have posted was to protect their brand name. Sponge Bob set the challenge with that headline - which whilst a little undiplomatic is in the main true and has been for the past 2 years and has went largely ignored. Its a simple case of shifting UK warehoused stock and the buck that goes with that. Its a little bit of a coincidence that their post was 2 months before the launch (whilst DTT has been on for the last 2 years).

Infact if I pick up a Sunday newspaper today I am sure it will be littered with products unsuitable for this country from the afore mentioned chain. Dont believe the spin.

You only have to look at the number of posts that have been answered over the past year to "I have a new TV and am trying to watch DTT but am getting no picture just sound". There are thousands of them! The buyers who trusted the chains.

What was implied in that post was that LG/Sony/Panasonic products are MPEG4 only and that these manufacturers dont make MPEG2 products and that it is safe to buy one of these brands by default as a result. Both Misleading and simply UNTRUE.

copacetic

STB wrote: »

What was implied in that post was that LG/Sony/Panasonic products are MPEG4 only and that these manufacturers dont make MPEG2 products and that it is safe to buy one of these brands by default as a result. Both Misleading and simply UNTRUE.

How was that implied? You can't make up something that wasn't said just so you can call it UNTRUE! The post was ultra clear and transparent.

All Branded TVs sold in Currys and PC World are Mpeg 4 ( which is Irish digital compatible) for example LG. Philips. Panasonic, Samsung , Sony

i.e Currys and PC World only stock mpeg4 TVs from any name brand. Making out the a post by the MD of Currys about what they sell was an attempt to say that no branded mpeg2 TVs are available anywhere is laughable imo.

As for this

Infact if I pick up a Sunday newspaper today I am sure it will be littered with products unsuitable for this country from the afore mentioned chain. Dont believe the spin.

.
Which spin do I not believe, yours that you claim but make no effort to prove, or theirs?
Why don't you do what you claim you can and post the results rather than just the spin?

STB

copacetic wrote: »

.
Which spin do I not believe, yours that you claim but make no effort to prove, or theirs?
Why don't you do what you claim you can and post the results rather than just the spin?

Joe public will believe that if its a Sony Panasonic LG Phillips then its okay. And thats just not true. The range without the h for LG thousand models and philips models are not mpeg4

And because I know the answers already. I see it every weekend and unless something has dramatically changed over the last 2 weeks and certain models ie nearly all the models listed in the Neotion CAM thread are no longer being sold then they are okay.

Tell you what lets go to their website shall we (ah they dont actually have one that doesnt redirect to the UK site!). I dont sell TVs by the way so have no interest in dissing any chain. ALL the UK chains are AT it.

As it goes I actually do know what I am talking about despite how annoying that may sound.

copacetic

STB wrote: »

Joe public will belive that if its a Sony Panasonic LG Phillips then its okay. And thats just not true.

And because I know the answers already. I see it every weekend and unless something has dramatically changed over the last 2 weeks and certain models ie nearly all the models listed in the Neotion CAM thread are no longer being sold then they are okay.

Tell you what lets go to their website shall we. I dont sell TVs by the way so have no interest in dissing any chain. ALL the UK chains are AT it.

I'm not sure what you can do to prevent Joe public believing the wrong thing but on balance I personally welcome Currys claim and the fact they did it in public and will no doubt back it up if you did somehow buy an non-mpeg4 TV from them.

I've no particular reason to believe or not believe the claim, but from what I've seen myself they and Power City seem to be currently only stocking mpeg4 sets. Power City have been well ahead of all the other chains on prominently displaying info on Irish DTT for a long time now, but other chains are catching up. It appears to be the supermarkets, Tesco, M&S, Dunnes, Aldi, Lidl etc who are the worst culprits at the moment for selling non compatible sets.

I'd still think people should be careful, especially if they plan to use access services, text etc. Waiting for Saorview ticked boxes will always be the safest thing.

STB

Well you cannot depend on the certification process either as its voluntary! Walker are the only ones certified at present.

I do agree with some of what you are saying but for Joe public to believe you are okay with a big name brand is not 100% accurate. Of the latest models yes, but they will not know that. There is SO much warehoused old model and freeview only products still being sold here everyday.

Tescos (possibly the worst) and Maplins.

I know right now that I could walk in to a TV retail shop (including DID Electrical) and find a Freeview only TV at a ridiculous or dearer price than an MPEG4 and suitable product.

The French did the sensible thing. They took it out of the retailers hands and made it illegal.

watty

OK I'll bite this once copacetic as you are a decent regular poster...

Currys: Declan wrote: »

Probably best to answer your points in order ;

1. We don't sell digital TV's that don't work in Ireland. Were that the case, we would have lots of unhappy customers and returned boxes, and we want neither. What I think you're alluding to is that UK freeview specification is not compatible with Irish "digital ", the specifications of which are still not entirely clear to either us or to TV manufacturers.

This is what our TV category manager says :

All Branded TVs sold in Currys and PC World are Mpeg 4 ( which is Irish digital compatible) for example LG. Philips. Panasonic, Samsung , Sony

Not true.
he says later

If I look at the range which we are currently bringing in for winter, across our OEM brands Currys Essentials, Logik and Sandstroem, only the latter will be MPEG 4.

Currys: Declan wrote: »

These TVs also are Mpeg 2 ( free view) which will work in Ireland using a satellite dish, but is not encouraged as this is a BBC licensed service.

Utter nonsense. Freeview doesn't work with a dish, aerial only.

Currys: Declan wrote: »

Currys in the UK have lots of TV's in their range that will not work in Ireland. These are HD digtial freeview ( T2 ) and they won't work here. So we don't include them in our Irish ranges , which are managed locally .

These ones WILL work! and the "middleware" is MHEG5 so works!

Currys: Declan wrote: »

]We feel it would be incorrect and potentially misleading for us to advertise our TV range as Irish digital compatible, until the TV's have the middleware to support all Irish digital functions. This middleware is , as yet, not available

Rubbish. See previous comment

Currys: Declan wrote: »

So, to summarise, Irish digital TV is a minefield and still up in the air. All TV's that we sell will work in Ireland and will receive Irish digital ( as it currently stands ) picture and sound. They are no different from any other TV's sold in Ireland. The fact that our TV's also receive freeview is an additional technology that is built into the product.

Rubbish. Less than 3 months ago when this was posted the spec was absolutely clear for ages.

Currys: Declan wrote: »

On Point 2 the less said the better. We don't pretend that all our colleagues, to a man and woman, know everything about everything that we sell ( and certainly not about a very unclear digital status in Ireland ) but they certainly not clueless.

How much more is the floor staff paid than Tesco staff?
They are not trained other than in Customer Service and selling extras such as "extended warranties" that are actually insurance policies. In my experience they are no more expert than Argos or Tesco, nor do I expect it.

Currys: Declan wrote: »

We have no TV's to withdraw as all our TV's have Mpeg 2 and 4, so there's no problem here.

As quoted he admits this is untrue about the MPEG4. MPEG2 is irrelevant.

Currys: Declan wrote: »

SKY and UPC are Mpeg 2 and these are covered in ouyr range also. So no problem there.

MPEG2 TVs is nothing to do with Sky/UPC digital. All you need is SCART Analogue or HDMI for HD. No decoder in the TV is used at all in either case. Complete nonsense.

Currys: Declan wrote: »

We try to keep ahead of these things. 90 % of our range in 2009 were Mpeg 2 and 4. We were ready but unfortunately nothing happened. We attended meetings in Comreg to make sure we were ready but as you know it all went a bit pear shaped.

Only PayTV went "pear shaped". The spec was obvious to "dogs in street" by 2006 or 2007, bar the MHEG5 and mandatory HD.
The MHEG5 Middleware was discussed as likely in April 2010, the other aspects having been decided.

MHEG5 is what the UK uses and was finalised as 100% definite at end of July 2010. http://www.digitaltvnews.net/content/?p=15694
But it would have been clear at UK HD DTT launch in November 2009 that the same TVs and setboxes would work in Ireland bar question mark over the "middleware".

It's been clear from May 2010 than the service really would launch this Autumn 2010. It was possible from Early 2008 that the service might launch in Autumn 2009 with DVB-t (DVB-T2 tuners will work), MPEG4 and possible HD.

There is now no excuses. All specifications are complete. The service is "official" by Ministerial order, since 29th October 2010 (Well publicised deadline was 31st October 2010).

Full public launch Spring 2011
Analogue Close October 2012

Sale of Goods Act applies. It's reasonably expected that a New TV should be fit for Purpose for at least two years.

copacetic

watty wrote: »

OK I'll bite this once copacetic as you are a decent regular poster...

Ah, ok. We are talking about different things. I only quoted the single line from that post re mpeg4 that I thought was useful. You seemed to be sayingt that it was untrue they were stocking only mpeg4 TVs as you replied directly to my post saying so. Your other points I mostly agree with.

However the key thing, imo, is the current status. i.e They are only currently stocking mpeg4 sets from any brand name. If it's true I'm sure we can all agree thats a good thing. If they now do the same for OEM then they'll be in good shape. (Essentials, Logik and Sandstroem aren't 'brands' in retailer speak, they are unbranded sets, which Currys add a label to)

As STB and myself said above it's Tesco, Maplin, Dunnes etc who are the real current culprits..

watty

Interestingly a while ago (a month?) ALL TVs and stuff with tuners vanished out of the local large Dunnes.

Not a TV to be seen except the JML or whatever advert loop...

copacetic

watty wrote: »

Interestingly a while ago (a month?) ALL TVs and stuff with tuners vanished out of the local large Dunnes.

Not a TV to be seen except the JML or whatever advert loop...

Well thats something, M&S took all their 'digital' TVs off display a while back too, Iafter having big signs up saying they had built in digital receivers for about a year (mpeg2 only). 'm interested to see what reappears for Christmas.

Possibly the move from a test to a trial takes away their last excuse that they are fit for purpose.

championc

watty wrote: »

These ones WILL work! and the "middleware" is MHEG5 so works!

99% correct Watty although you are most often 100%. The Caveat is Panasonic TV's which seem to be programmed around the UK D-Book spec rather than the ETSI spec. I have my fingers still crossed that the G20B will work but no looking very likely to be honest. Here's hoping that they may bring out an Irish version or else a Firmware upgrade.

BTW, is Freesat for UK only or is it legal for other countries to sell Freesat TV's ? I'm banking on the G20B for the Freesat HD tuner in addition to the DVB-T2 tuner

watty

It's legal to sell them. But "Freesat" and "Freeview" (two different organisations) can't market here.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

It's legal to sell them. But "Freesat" and "Freeview" (two different organisations) can't market here.

@Watty
By 'can't market here' do you mean are not allowed by their own rules, or cannot market here legally?

Also are Freesat branded goods allowed to be sold outside the UK? Is it a condition of the trademark that they only can be sold/marketed in the UK? For example, could Panasonic launch a version of the G20B that had Freesat enabled when the country code was not UK?

Lots of questions, sorry Watty.

watty

Their own internal rules.

I don't know what additional rules there are. But certainly it can only be Freesat/Freeview branded if you select UK as Country.

But since they have paid MPEG4, AAC and MHEG5 royalites they can have an Ireland option in software that is all the same features but without the Freeview/Freesat branding. Basically that was the loophole that Sat4free was using.

Volcane

My Sony CRT gave up and I wanted a replacement, I had thought about getting another stop gap CRT along with a Freeview HD set-top-box but decided that I would be better with a new TV!

After some research I went for a sony LCD 40ex503. The picture is just about OK and is certainly not as good as a CRT but the HD rte test picture is excellent and is really what the TV needs. I would have purchased a panasonic plasma if I could have been certain that it would continue to receive saorview correctly.

I must say that without the information provided on this forum I would have relied on the lack of knowledge displayed by people tryiing to sell TVs.

Thanks to all, esp Watty!!

STB

Freesat TV Combo's that were sold in Ireland (albeir N Ireland) do work for Dvb-t - outside the Panasonics who took a rigid view of allowing the dvb-t tuner only tune mpeg2 stations.

Whether they should be sold outside the country they operate in is down to control. Most retailers dont want to get involved in this debate. Some are selling Freeview branded products that most shouldnt be sold here!

Any Freeview HD/Freesat HD combo Tv should be okay but I wouldnt want to the first guinea pig.

For those combo's you may not have a country profile choice other than UK - specifically destined for UK.

Some will have E models which have the European profiles other than UK and will not have Freesat software ie 7 day epg. They probably wont have MHEG5 either as manufacturers havent turned on MHEG5 for Ireland despite the spec being out. Thats another issue.

So if you want 7 day epg for both buy the B (UK Freeview HD/Freesat model) as you will get it all.

championc

Anyone know if there is a G20E ? I downloaded and read the manual of the G20B and it certainly provides for tuning of the DVB-S tuner to satellites other than the 28.5E one of all the Freesat channels. So yes, you could happily use the satellite tuner. I know from the D25 (I think) that this works OK for MPEG-4.

Now for a question to those knowledgible folk - is MHEG-5 for the 7 day EPG or is it for Teletext - or both ? Without a 7 day EPG, do you get a now and next ? Mind you, a same day EPG would do me - I never looked at a schedule more than a couple of hours ahead.


C

watty

MHEG5 is for whatever they want...

Yes, it's used for EPG, but currently there is also DVB 5 or 7 day info also. No idea how long they will duplicate.

Yes, it's used for fancier text with photos (or even video) in it. At the minute a duplicate of Teletext. No idea how long they will support teletext.

It can do other stuff too, such as button to select a hidden video stream, interactive menus, interface to information via ethernet connector! They seem to have ambitions in this direction but not clarity in details. However it's supported and some TVs and Boxes have ethernet port.

It can provide animations and simple games or quiz

It can manage Over the Air Updates.

It can add channels to scan for transponders.

Sky box uses "Open TV" (not open ). Saorview and Freeview uses MHEG5, French TNT uses MHP.

They decided the basic Nordig 2.0 was not enough and additionally specified MHEG5 as the Middleware
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHEG5

championc

Machinehead wrote: »

@ STB.
No response yet. Their last reply took a couple of weeks "due to technical problems". Their website & the manual, which they reiterate, says that the TV was only compatible with operational services in specific countries as of 01/01/2010, Ireland is not included & I don't think anything I say or do will alter their position on the fact that the TV is not guarenteed to work on any other systems. I guess that I will just have to hold out for an upgrade that I hope will activate MHEG5 functionality.

Any luck yet Machinehead ?

I might shift my attentions away from the G20B towards the D25L. There's certainly more chance of an "L" being resolved rather than any compatability being put into a possible G20L.

Or has anyone out there got a D25B ?


C

The Cush

watty wrote: »

MHEG5 is for whatever they want...

Yes, it's used for EPG, but currently there is also DVB 5 or 7 day info also. No idea how long they will duplicate.

There is no and has been no MHEG-5 epg on DTT. There was a few short green button tests previously, never fully active. It doesn't seem to be a priority for RTÉ. (infact there is no MHEG anything as I write)

I find the DVB-SI guide on the Sony TVs to be superior to the MHEG-5 epg tests. The UK's freeview has managed quiet well with the DVB-SI epg, the commercial MHEG-5 epgs weren't all that popular.

Machinehead

The model I have is the TX-L42D25L (Ireland Model). No response from Panasonic to my last email 05/10. It looks like Panasonic are going to leave things on the upgrade side alone until "Saorview" is up & running & out of the trial period. I can understand their position - why create upgrades for a system that is still "in a technical trial test period". Hopefully when RTÉNL are completely done, an upgrade might be forthcoming form Panasonic. As I have posted before, I bought the TV on the basis that it "worked for DTT" but in my own ignorance re MHEG5 it's totally useless, but I'm not the only one, in Tesco yesterday I saw many "digital" TV's for sale. Someone has got to step up to the mark & lay down some regulations on the sale of ALL new TV's available in Ireland.

Apogee

Machinehead wrote: »

The model I have is the TX-L42D25L (Ireland Model). No response from Panasonic to my last email 05/10. It looks like Panasonic are going to leave things on the upgrade side alone until "Saorview" is up & running & out of the trial period. I can understand their position - why create upgrades for a system that is still "in a technical trial test period". Hopefully when RTÉNL are completely done, an upgrade might be forthcoming form Panasonic. As I have posted before, I bought the TV on the basis that it "worked for DTT" but in my own ignorance re MHEG5 it's totally useless, but I'm not the only one, in Tesco yesterday I saw many "digital" TV's for sale. Someone has got to step up to the mark & lay down some regulations on the sale of ALL new TV's available in Ireland.

The specification for Saorview has been set and published with some considerable time. Panasonic know this but their customer support for Ireland is beyond useless.

Machinehead

Yeah I understand, but I've seen something on these threads about some tags, labels, service type coding or some kind of switching that RTÉNLL have yet to finalise that until done can mess up some Panasonic TV's.

Machinehead

Machinehead wrote: »

Yeah I understand, but I've seen something on these threads about some tags, labels, service type coding or some kind of switching that RTÉNLL have yet to finalise that until done can mess up some Panasonic TV's.

When the service type is defined in the transport stream as 0x16 the UK Panasonics don't tune them in, only when it's set at 0x01. I don't know what the service type is currently defined as, but if it is tuned in while at 0x01 and later changed to 0x16 it continues working, provided you never do a rescan again.

Apogee

Machinehead wrote: »

Yeah I understand, but I've seen something on these threads about some tags, labels, service type coding or some kind of switching that RTÉNLL have yet to finalise that until done can mess up some Panasonic TV's.

It wouldn't mess up the Panasonics if their firmware actually complied with the DVB standards they claim to comply with. The fault is entirely on Panasonic's side. The could update the firmware to patch the holes, but they simply don't care.

championc

Panasonic will just continue to confirm that UK models are for the UK market only and work perfectly correctly in that territory. Maybe the D25L has MHEG-5 and that it hasn't become fully evident yet given RTENL's lack of use of it so far ?

Just a question Machinehead, does the D25L have the Satellite connection ? I found details of a G20E yesterday (French) and Panny have removed the DVB-S from this Euro model.

Martynet

Hei guys,

I'm happy owner of TX-P50V10E TV and have a question... At the moment, I'm using just irish analog channels on my TV, cos when I bought it and searched for channels, that was all, TV found :-). That was actually first time I realized, that Ireland is a bit behind with DVB-T and it really suprised me... anyway, I found this topic and would like to dive in again as it seems that there is a bit of DVB-T here in Ireland :-) I live in Dublin, Sandyford... What do I need to get those channels working? Is there any special settings or custom firmware for Panasonic plazmas to make it work.
Thanks for any help
cheers

STB

Marty,

Its been on for the past 2 years!

Go to your digital tuner and scan its on 738 MHZ or UHF Ch 21.

You will have no problem getting in Sandyford.

As far as I know with the panasonics there is an option to scan analogue only so make sure you pick digital.

When you choose the source button on your remote it flicks between analogue and dvb-t

Martynet

thank you very much for quick answer STB. Definitely will try that. Do I need any special Antenna or can I use the plug in the wall I'm using now...
Also, I can have UPC, but their HD channel list is very poor and I can't have SKY, cos I'm not allowed to put any dish on the roof of my apartment building :-(

STB

Martynet wrote: »

thank you very much for quick answer STB. Definitely will try that. Do I need any special Antenna or can I use the plug in the wall I'm using now...
Also, I can have UPC, but their HD channel list is very poor and I can't have SKY, cos I'm not allowed to put any dish on the roof of my apartment building :-(

What is the plug in the wall ? Its not your UPC cable connection ? Or is it a feed from an aerial on the roof ?

An indoor UHF aerial positioned by the window may suffice. Connect it to the aerial in on TV. If you were getting half decent analogue then your DTT will be fine.

Machinehead

championc wrote: »

Panasonic will just continue to confirm that UK models are for the UK market only and work perfectly correctly in that territory. Maybe the D25L has MHEG-5 and that it hasn't become fully evident yet given RTENL's lack of use of it so far ?

Just a question Machinehead, does the D25L have the Satellite connection ? I found details of a G20E yesterday (French) and Panny have removed the DVB-S from this Euro model.

The D25L does not have a UK option in set up, mind you I didn't see any mention of MHEG5 in the D25B specs either. Not sure if the D25E has MHEG5.
The D25L is packed with connections. 4 HDMI, 2 Scart, 2 USB, LAN & CAM Slot. It also has DNLA, sweet for viewing pics & video streamed from laptop. It also has RF for VHF & UHF (DTT) & Satellite connection for a very pleasing picture on BBC HD & ITV HD. I found calibration settings online which work very well. If you want these settings go to - http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-tx-l42d25-tx-l42d25b-20100430437.htm

Machinehead

Karsini wrote: »

When the service type is defined in the transport stream as 0x16 the UK Panasonics don't tune them in, only when it's set at 0x01. I don't know what the service type is currently defined as, but if it is tuned in while at 0x01 and later changed to 0x16 it continues working, provided you never do a rescan again.

I understand this problem only applies to UK models, mine is the Ireland D25L model & a re-tune will only have problems on non Ireland models. Any idea where I can find which service type my Panny model is set up for.

championc

From others on here, they confirmed on Friday that we're still on 0x01.

I'm glad to hear that they have left the Satellite connection intact on this Irish version of this set. It may well be an option for me now - more expensive admitedly than the G20 was going to cost me. Maybe DID will have this model on sale at Christmas and I can queue up at 04:00am and join the scrum.

Martynet

that plug is used for analog tv, but when i had upc for a while, it was used for that too i think...

STB

Machinehead wrote: »

I understand this problem only applies to UK models, mine is the Ireland D25L model & a re-tune will only have problems on non Ireland models. Any idea where I can find which service type my Panny model is set up for.

You wont find it on your TV. There is no reason that all service types havent been defined on a European model. Service Types are included in the transport stream sent by the broadcaster, in this case RTE NL. At the moment its 0x1 which will even work on MPEG2 sets is being sent in the transport stream (but it wont help display the picture on an MPEG2 Tv - its only a flag for MPEG2). These flags are used to help non compliant IDTVs just ignore the MPEG4 broadcsts in a scan. It will change soon (to 0x16 and 0x19) I would think as it doesnt match what video codec RTE are broadcasting in (Advanced Codec SD for most and Advanced Codec HD on the Test Channel).

As has been said already:

The L model is the European model

The B model is the UK model

The B Model has MHEG5 by default.

The L model doesnt have MHEG5 tuned on by default in the Irish country profile. Our spec is out 2 and a half years. This TV is only on the market.

Martynet

Martynet wrote: »

that plug is used for analog tv, but when i had upc for a while, it was used for that too i think...

It's a disconnected upc socket then and will be no use as an aerial.
You'll have to buy one.

STB

Martynet wrote: »

that plug is used for analog tv, but when i had upc for a while, it was used for that too i think...

Are you sure its not a UPC only connection. Is it an apartment block ?

Anyway try a simple indoor UHF aerial first.

Martynet

it is an apartment block... it shouldn't be upc only, because I use it for standard analog at the moment and it works... if it doesn't, something like this will be ok? :
http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/5347919/Trail/searchtext%3EAERIAL.htm

watty

Argos have ZERO decent indoor aerials.
see http://www.techtir.ie/radio-tv/uhf-aerials

If you get Analogue that may be via UPCs analogue service, where some channels are not encrypted.

Machinehead

STB wrote: »

You wont find it on your TV. There is no reason that all service types havent been defined on a European model. Service Types are included in the transport stream sent by the broadcaster, in this case RTE NL. At the moment its 0x1 which will even work on MPEG2 sets is being sent in the transport stream (but it wont help display the picture on an MPEG2 Tv - its only a flag for MPEG2). These flags are used to help non compliant IDTVs just ignore the MPEG4 broadcsts in a scan. It will change soon (to 0x16 and 0x19) I would think as it doesnt match what video codec RTE are broadcasting in (Advanced Codec SD for most and Advanced Codec HD on the Test Channel).

As has been said already:

The L model is the European model

The B model is the UK model

The B Model has MHEG5 by default.

The L model doesn't have MHEG5 tuned on by default in the Irish country profile. Our spec is out 2 and a half years. This TV is only on the market.

Thanks for your response STB. What I still can't make out is the D25 compliant for the 0x16 and 0x19 service types? Are any of these now being used by RTÉNL? I can view all the channels now being shown on Saorview.

STB

Machinehead wrote: »

Thanks for your response STB. What I still can't make out is the D25 compliant for the 0x16 and 0x19 service types? Are any of these now being used by RTÉNL? I can view all the channels now being shown on Saorview.

There is no reason it wouldnt be compliant. The D25L is actually an Irish model and must have the full list of descriptors defined under ETSI (ETSI EN 300 468).

It is the initial Freesat Combos that had the problems - these are the ones with Freesat HD and a dvb-t tuner (specific models LZD81 series, PZ81 series, G10s G15s). This is because they did not use European standards - they used UK Dbook which are a watered down version to suit their own use - they only had an MPEG2 SD service on DVB-T at the time and didnt define anything else other than that for TV services in their firmware. A simple fix, but they have been reluctant to include the extra few lines of descriptors.

Your D25L is not built to Dbook standard but is rather built to ETSI EN300 468 which will have all these service codes defined in the firmware (I have bolded the 3 types that have and will cause the confusion)

Infact the Panasonic TX-L42D25 (without the L - ie the new Freesat HD/Freeview HD range) shouldnt have problems either as for the Freeview HD should now be compliant with ETSI EN300 468 because they use MPEG4 HD codecs with the dvb-t2 tuner and it should be defined in the firmware as a result). It should automatically do this for a dvb-t service but I dont have access to what standards they used for their construction.


Table 81: Service type coding
service_type Description
0x00 reserved for future use
0x01 digital television service (see note 1)
0x02 digital radio sound service (see note 2)
0x03 Teletext service
0x04 NVOD reference service (see note 1)
0x05 NVOD time-shifted service (see note 1)
0x06 mosaic service
0x07 FM radio service
0x08 DVB SRM service [49]
0x09 reserved for future use
0x0A advanced codec digital radio sound service
0x0B advanced codec mosaic service
0x0C data broadcast service
0x0D reserved for Common Interface Usage (EN 50221 [37])
0x0E RCS Map (see EN 301 790 [7])
0x0F RCS FLS (see EN 301 790 [7])
0x10 DVB MHP service
0x11 MPEG-2 HD digital television service
0x12 to 0x15 reserved for future use
0x16 advanced codec SD digital television service
0x17 advanced codec SD NVOD time-shifted service
0x18 advanced codec SD NVOD reference service
0x19 advanced codec HD digital television service
0x1A advanced codec HD NVOD time-shifted service
0x1B advanced codec HD NVOD reference service
0x1C to 0x7F reserved for future use
0x80 to 0xFE user defined
0xFF reserved for future use
NOTE 1: MPEG-2 SD material should use this type.
NOTE 2: MPEG-1 Layer 2 audio material should use this type.

At present RTE are using 0x01. This is reserved for MPEG2 SD stations (like Freeview in the UK) We are broadcasting in MPEG4 SD and technically shouldn't be tagging as such. As a result this hasnt been an issue for those with the UK DBook Freesat combo TVs. But it will be should they switch it back.

They have in the past used 0x16.

They will use 0x16 and 0x19 in the near future and discard 0x01 for sure.

Bet you are sorry you answered the question now! Apologies to anyone else whose head is melted with this information.

Machinehead

Thanks STB, a fountain of knowledge as per usual. Last point - are the D25E & the Ireland D25L basically one in the same then?

STB

Machinehead wrote: »

Thanks STB, a fountain of knowledge as per usual. Last point - are the D25E & the Ireland D25L basically one in the same then?

Well after much research it now appears that the "L" range is for Ireland. The "E" is the EU model. There should be no distinction.

I wonder what the distinction is though........you have me interested.

Why not ask Panasonic. Whilst also asking them how they will be enabling MHEG5 for your brand new TV ? Again point them to the 2008 published spec.

On further reading of the spec for the L

Contrast Automatic Tracking System / ** Based on IEC 62087 Ed.2 measurement method.

/ ***Notice for DVB functions: / This TV is designed to meet the standards (current as of August, 2009) of DVB-T/C/S/S2 (MPEG2 and MPEG4-AVC [H.264]) services. / The compatibility with future DVB services is not guaranteed. / DVB-T MPEG4-AVC broadcast is available in selected countries: Denmark, Spain, Estonia, France, Lithuania, Norway, Slovenia, Sweden, Poland, Hungary, Portugal. / DVB-C feature is available only in following countries: / Sweden (ComHem, Canal Digital), Demark (YouSee), Norway (Canal Digital), Finland (Cable Ready HD), Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands / The country list above is as of January 1st, 2010. / Check the latest information on the available services at the following website (English only): / http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/tv/

NO mention of Ireland! They better not hide behind the operational service. Its been on since 2008 on a test basis. The standard for Ireland was set in February 2008 and finalised in December 2008! Both were also published. Jeez do the manufacturers not have a logged standard for Ireland ???? And I am talking about mandatory inclusion of MHEG5 here!

peking97

STB wrote: »

DVB-T MPEG4-AVC broadcast is available in selected countries: Denmark, Spain, Estonia, France, Lithuania, Norway, Slovenia, Sweden, Poland, Hungary, Portugal. [/U]

Do you happen to know if any of the countries listed use MHEG5 middleware?

I ask because I have a TX-PF37X10 which I bought from Pixmania in June '09. I currently have the country setting set to France and I receive the DTT trials fine except the text is just the old analogue style text. I imagine I could change the country setting and try for MHEG5 text if any of the above are using it. I'd rather not lose all my customisations if someone already knows these countries don't use MHEG5. Appreciate all the info.

Sponge Bob

peking97 wrote: »

Do you happen to know if any of the countries listed use MHEG5 middleware?

Ireland and UK only ( and Hong Kong and New Zealand too I think). We have long recommended French "TNT HD" compliant gear around here which does everything bar the fancy teletext which is what MHEG5 mainly is .

watty

It is used by Freeview and Freesat in the UK, Freeview in New Zealand, TVB in Hong Kong, Freeview in Australia, and has been specified in Ireland, and South Africa.

MHEG-5 has been selected as the mandatory interactivity engine for CI+ compliant TVs (and other CI+ devices).
The MHEG-5 language itself is just that, a language. To be useful in any particular context, the language needs to be profiled. A broadcast profile of the language has been standardized by ETSI forming ETSI standard ES 202 184.

So no, none of those use MHEG5.

It does a lot more (potentially) than simply pretty text. "mainly" is the important word.

The only real viable alternative is MHP. But given Freesat already, Southeast and Borders Freeview reception and Irish Digital in N.I. via DTT & Sat, it would have been perverse to NOT use MHEG5, which is free anyway. (MHP is royalty).

UPC in Netherlands using Mediahighway (NDS) and Sky uses Open TV (which isn't and is NDS/Thomson)


Using a French "TNT HD" box or TV was OK for early adopters and hugely more sensible than Sagem Picnic or Neotion cards. But makes no sense now that UK "Freeview HD" is starting to be widely available at a reasonable price.

Though today there is only the overpriced €100 Walker Setbox and some Walker TVs (Vestel), there will be much more.

Analogue switch off is 2 years away
Full launch about 5 or 6 months.

At present there are a small number of SAORVIEW approved STBs or iDTVs, see below. Others are currently going through the testing process.
In the lead up to the full launch of SAORVIEW in spring 2011 there will be a wider range of approved receivers available from retailers and TV installers across the country.

via http://rtenl.ie/dtt.htm

The Cush

peking97 wrote: »

Do you happen to know if any of the countries listed use MHEG5 middleware?

Ireland and the UK are the only european countries to do MHEG-5.

Outside Europe - New Zealand, Australia, Hong Kong, South Africa, India (cable)

Testing in Malaysia and Turkey.

http://www.impala.org/deployments

STB

Watty, The Cush etc - this is nothing to do with Saorview certification. This is to do with following compliance with basic country broadcasting standards.

The point is that a TV that was released on the market in January 2010 does not comply with our spec published in 2008.

Why doesnt it ? They do not seem to be aware of the published spec for Ireland. How many other manufacturers are releasing products that do not comply with our published spec. And why.

Machinehead has a very good case for demanding MHEG5 as it is mandatory.

TX-L42D25L

VIERA Full HD LED LCD TV (Ireland Model)

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/VIERA+Flat+Screen+TV/VIERA+Flat+Screen+TV+%28Ireland%29/TX-L42D25L/Overview/4723188/index.html


In the full spec notes it points to this page:
http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/tv/

This page offers firmware upgrades. This should be the mechanism through which they offer to solve this real issue.

watty

STB wrote: »

W
The point is that a TV that was released on the market in January 2010 does not comply with our spec published in 2008.

TX-L42D25L

VIERA Full HD LED LCD TV (Ireland Model)

In the full spec notes it points to this page:
http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/tv/

This page offers firmware upgrades. This should be the mechanism through which they offer to solve this real issue.

OK missed the detail.

Totally agree
Problem is that here we have ASAI and CAI

Most people hardly know either exists.
While there is an online form for ASAI, you have to write a letter

You have to write, on real paper, for them to even progress.

They won't do anything as CAI is some sort of Quango with a question as to independence of decision process.

ASAI is industry association and believes the vendors without any independent verification.

Both are more useless than Chocolate Teapot, as at least you can eat Chocolate

The Cush

STB wrote: »

Watty, The Cush etc - this is nothing to do with Saorview certification. This is to do with following compliance with basic country broadcasting standards.

The point is that a TV that was released on the market in January 2010 does not comply with our spec published in 2008.

Why doesnt it ? They do not seem to be aware of the published spec for Ireland. How many other manufacturers are releasing products that do not comply with our published spec. And why.

Machinehead has a very good case for demanding MHEG5 as it is mandatory.

The only thing is the spec in not mandatory for any product sold in the country. The spec is only mandatory for products seeking Saorview certification. In Jan 2010 there wasn't a public DTT service in the country and the TV wasn't being sold as ready for Irish DTT. Teracom were only appointed earlier this year for product testing.