Ronaldo "I am the 1st, 2nd, 3rd best in world

NaiveMelodies

Mr Alan wrote: »

i do think he is better than Rooney.

but when i say that i am supposedly not to be believed as i'm a Utd hating Liverpool fan.

then i repeat what other people say (PHB for one), and thats ****e too.....guess i cant win.

Mr Pighead, i was simply pointing out that some Utd fans, dont think Ronaldo was the main reason for Utds success last year.

CASILLAS > RONALDO

Your just completely embarassing yourself.

Mr Alan

an your own contribution to this thread has been priceless.

thanks stevo.

NaiveMelodies

Boggles wrote: »

Right I'm going to say this very slowly and in big writing for you.

Ferguson
intstructs
him
to
stay
forward.

Now if you are still having problems comprehending that, we can work on it a bit more.

EXACTLY, NO player would get away with disobeying alex fergusons instructions every single match.

Ronaldo is the most dangerous winger in the world, where that leaves him with messi, i don't know, but what i do knw is that i would much rather the goal scoring threat of ronaldo on my team than messis incredible dribbling.

SantryRed

Reason Cech gets voted ahead of Casillas is he keeps much more clean sheets.

It's playing behind a sh1te defence that doesn't get Casillas noticed as much as he should, in relation to clean sheets.

Casillas and Buffon are the two best keepers in the world by a mile.


In relation to Ronaldo, fantastic footballer but an absolute goon off the pitch.

NaiveMelodies

Mr Alan wrote: »

an your own contribution to this thread has been priceless.

thanks stevo.

congrats.

kryogen

Mr Alan wrote: »

not at all, i agree that Ronaldo was the best outfield player in the world last year.

i just also think that a keeper and outfield player cannot be reasonably compared.

i think a keeper should and will win the award at some stage over the next few years-probably Casillas himself, and i think it would be a good statement from Fifa in regards to the kind of behaviour that is acceptable for footballers to choose this year to give the award to Casillas.

Maybe Ronaldo will learn a lesson in humility as a result-and then we'll all be the winners.

i call bull**** on this post, and a few others but im not multi quoting!!

Al, the player of the year award is (supposedly) given to the best player on the pitch, not off it....it doesnt matter if people think he cooks cats in the micro wave, its irrelevant and if they were to give the award to Casillas it would actually send out the wrong message, and you know it!

Do you think Casillas had a better year then Torres even? to relate it to someone you dont hate?

by your own admission Ronaldo was the best player in the world this year so why are you arguing or calling for someone else to get the award, just to show him he has to go to mass and start to tell the world he is in fact a mediocre football and he will never be a legend of the game, then will he deserve to win the award for footballing ability?

eZe^

Jazzy wrote: »

thats right - because ronaldo contributed more to Utds 2 trophies more then Casillas contributed to Reals and spains.
you have to remember that a goalkeeper does something every game so they are quite easy to give a hero status to (Jersey Dudek for example) as there is only ever one for your team at a time. if germany had won the final would casillas be up for the award? doubtful. if chelski had won the final would ronaldo be up for the award? easily.

Have you seen Casillas over the past two years? He has been playing behind the worst back four of all the big European teams, he was the most shot at keeper in the entire league last season. Levante were playing in La Liga last season, a squad of players who weren't paid by their club for over half a season. If Casillas is the most shot at keeper in the league, yet the team he plays for manages to win with the record points total in the history of La Liga, I can whole heartedly say he was the best keeper in the world last season, easily, also by far Madrid's most important player, Villareal may have won their first league title if it wasn't for Casillas.

He is also the only goal-keeper captain to ever win the European Championships.

I personally think Ronaldo deserves it a little more, but there would be no real complaints from me if Casillas won it, easily in the top 3 players in Europe last season.

redout wrote: »

Barcelona's self imploding was the instrumental part in Real Madrid's success last season not Iker Casillas. Casillas as good a Keeper he is, is not even the best keeper in Europe. Cech and certainly Buffon come to mind immediately as being better. Buffon was the reason Italy stayed in the Euro 2008 tournament as long as they did. I recall his penalty save in stoppage time that kept them in the tournament saving the world champions blushes of being eliminated in the group stage.

Barcelona imploding still doesn't explain how Madrid managed to win the league with a records points total, they rode their luck in some of their wins, but Casillas was the deciding factor in at least 10 games.

JæKæ wrote: »

Benidorm-I was there once, I didn't realise they played. best damn team on the Costa Del Sol I'd say

Ya, it was a Copa Del Rei fixture.


I don't know why this thread hasn't been locked yet. Realistically there is no chance that Ronaldo won't win the award, every point has been reiterated 3 or 4 times, and it gets just as ridiculous when blind Ronaldo lovers say something stupid like 'He may be the greatest of all time' as it does when Ronaldo bashers claiming he is talentless.

kryogen wrote: »

i call bull**** on this post, and a few others but im not multi quoting!!

Al, the player of the year award is (supposedly) given to the best player on the pitch, not off it....it doesnt matter if people think he cooks cats in the micro wave, its irrelevant and if they were to give the award to Casillas it would actually send out the wrong message, and you know it!

Do you think Casillas had a better year then Torres even? to relate it to someone you dont hate?

by your own admission Ronaldo was the best player in the world this year so why are you arguing or calling for someone else to get the award, just to show him he has to go to mass and start to tell the world he is in fact a mediocre football and he will never be a legend of the game, then will he deserve to win the award for footballing ability?

Torres was Liverpool's best player last season, but he won nothing with them. For Spain, he wasn't even their best striker. I think Casillas was better than Torres last season. Did you watch Casillas for more than a game or two last season?



Edit- Also, want to know how important Casillas was in the past two league campaigns, look at him this year. He has been terrible so far this season and look at how many goals his team has conceded. Real Madrid have no chance of retaining the league if Casillas doesn't become invincible again, that's how important he is.

Xavi6

Fuck Ronaldo and Casillas. Xavi's the World Player of the Year :cool:

eZe^

Xavi6 wrote: »

Fuck Ronaldo and Casillas. Xavi's the World Player of the Year :cool:

If only my friend, if only. He's putting himself in with a good shout this year anyway!

redout

eZe^ wrote: »

Barcelona imploding still doesn't explain how Madrid managed to win the league with a records points total, they rode their luck in some of their wins, but Casillas was the deciding factor in at least 10 games.

What do you mean exactly. Are you talking about overall points total or points difference with 2nd place. I presume you are also talking about the 38 game season because if not that that information would be incorrect on both counts.

Bubs101

Casillas is undoubtably great but the defence that Buffon plays behind is shambolic. Chiellini aside they are pretty much all wanting of top 4 standard. Hard to pick a winner between the two

eZe^

redout wrote: »

What do you mean exactly. Are you talking about overall points total or points difference with 2nd place. I presume you are also talking about the 38 game season because if not that that information would be incorrect on both counts.

Wait, you're right, my bad. There was 96/97 when Madrid finished with 92 and Barca finished wih 90.

Bubs101 wrote: »

Casillas is undoubtably great but the defence that Buffon plays behind is shambolic. Chiellini aside they are pretty much all wanting of top 4 standard. Hard to pick a winner between the two

Buffon has probably been the more spectacular throughout both careers, but Casillas wins the past two seasons definitely. Also, Juventus, despite not having the best defense, are tactically astute, as they proved against Madrid twice this season. They have Sissoko, and play a much more defensive orientated game, Madrid don't know how to defend, and thus rely on Casillas more.

Pighead

It's a bit unfair on Madrid's attackers to suggest Casillas won the league for them last season almost single handed. They scored a shedload of goals last season.

Xavi6

Pighead wrote: »

It's a bit unfair on Madrid's attackers to suggest Casillas won the league for them last season almost single handed. They scored a shedload of goals last season.

Very true Piggy. I'm almost sure I saw him use both hands.

Pighead

Xavi6 wrote: »

Very true Piggy. I'm almost sure I saw him use both hands.

He's obviously not as good as everybody says then! Two hands indeed.

Bubs101

eZe^ wrote: »

Buffon has probably been the more spectacular throughout both careers, but Casillas wins the past two seasons definitely. Also, Juventus, despite not having the best defense, are tactically astute, as they proved against Madrid twice this season. They have Sissoko, and play a much more defensive orientated game, Madrid don't know how to defend, and thus rely on Casillas more.

I dunno, if you're counting the Serie B season then it's hard to judge but last year in Serie A I'm pretty sure we were planning to base our whole defence around Andrade who promptly got injured for the whole season which left us in the lurch defence wise. We only finished third with the two top scorers in the league and we only got Sissoko half way through which gives you an idea of how much work we had to do. This year, Gigi has been injured for around half the season so it's hard to judge

eZe^

Pighead wrote: »

It's a bit unfair on Madrid's attackers to suggest Casillas won the league for them last season almost single handed. They scored a shedload of goals last season.

He was their most instrumental player. Their attackers can only do so much, but when you ship 6 goals to Real Union (the team they went out to this year in the Copa Del Rei with Dudek in goal), a third divison side over two legs, you look at your defense and keeper.

redout

I am not sure because the season before Madrid won the league on a goal difference rule from Barcelona. Instead of the normal (EPL anyway) better goal difference would be ahead, Spain has the rule where it goes to results against eachother first and Barcelona ended up losing the league even though they finished with a 13 goal superior goal difference. Casillas conceded more goals yet they were awarded the league title. So one gets awarded the league for conceding more goals than your rivals and having a inferior goal difference. Importance on the keeper is obviously not everything.

An Citeog

redout wrote: »

I am not sure because the season before Madrid won the league on a goal difference rule from Barcelona. Instead of the normal (EPL anyway) better goal difference would be ahead, Spain has the rule where it goes to results against eachother first and Barcelona ended up losing the league even though they finished with a 13 goal superior goal difference. Casillas conceded more goals yet they were awarded the league title. So one gets awarded the league for conceding more goals than your rivals and having a inferior goal difference. Importance on the keeper is obviously not everything.

It's not just about the goal difference though. There were so many times where it was 0-0 or 1-0 to Madrid and Casillas had to pull off a string of world class saves to keep them in the game, particularly around the middle of the season. Afaik (ie. according to eZe^:D), Casillas was the most shot at keeper in la liga last season. Imo, he was Madrid's most important player last season and without him, they probably wouldn't have won the league, even though Barça capitulated.

eZe^

An Citeog wrote: »

Afaik (ie. according to eZe^:D), Casillas was the most shot at keeper in la liga last season.

I will find that article. I swear...

Mr. Incognito

Afaik (ie. according to eZe^), Casillas was the most shot at keeper in la liga last season.

I will find that article. I swear...

http://www.411mania.com/sports/other_sports/76971/Breaking-The-Offside-Trap-06.03.08:-The-Ghosts-of-Summers-Past.htm

The saving grace then, as is so often the case for Real Madrid is the continued form of Iker Casilas. On form you would be hard pressed to find a better keeper in the world, statistics show that he was the most shot at ‘keeper last season yet he still had the best record. Playing behind Spain's back fur he is going to need all of his speed, agility and reflexes to be on show in Switzerland and Austria.

Look,

This is a stupid argument. Take Casilas out of the real madrid team and a professional keeper would save maybe 80%/90% of the shots he saves. It's the 10% only he can reach that sets him apart.

Take Ronaldo out of the Utd team and they will struggle to find as many goals. They have scored in 36 consecutive league matches and Ronaldo has 39 of those in the last 35 games.You know it, I know it and Alex defo knows it. Soccer is won on goals. If you have 10 messi's dribbling round the opposition like traffic cones and they can't score it's no good to you. If you have one Ronaldo who sits on the sideline with a cornetto for 89 minutes and drills in a free kick in the 90th, you will the game.

I know who I'd want in my team if the object was to win.

Dave!

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

If you have one Ronaldo who sits on the sideline with a cornetto for 89 minutes and drills in a free kick in the 90th, you win the game.

LOL

I wouldn't be screaming conspiracy if Casillas won it. Goalkeepers are under appreciated and Casillas was nothing short of AMAZING last year.

However the reason I think Ronaldo should win it is that trailblazer seasons like the one he had come along once or twice a decade at most. Zidane in 2002. Ronaldos season at Barcelona is another example. No matter how good the competition is, sometimes one guys is just a shoe in.

redout

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

http://www.411mania.com/sports/other_sports/76971/Breaking-The-Offside-Trap-06.03.08:-The-Ghosts-of-Summers-Past.htm




Look,

This is a stupid argument. Take Casilas out of the real madrid team and a professional keeper would save maybe 80%/90% of the shots he saves. It's the 10% only he can reach that sets him apart.

Take Ronaldo out of the Utd team and they will struggle to find as many goals. They have scored in 36 consecutive league matches and Ronaldo has 39 of those in the last 35 games.You know it, I know it and Alex defo knows it. Soccer is won on goals. If you have 10 messi's dribbling round the opposition like traffic cones and they can't score it's no good to you. If you have one Ronaldo who sits on the sideline with a cornetto for 89 minutes and drills in a free kick in the 90th, you will the game.

I know who I'd want in my team if the object was to win.

It is not just about winning it is about the way in which you win. Excellent example would be 3 years ago Capello wins La Liga with Real Madrid and yet they fire him. Why ? because they did not like the way in which his team played. Now to some that is the drfinition of insanity to others it makes sense.

Sorry 2 years ago not 3.

Jazzy

redout wrote: »

It is not just about winning it is about the way in which you win. Excellent example would be 3 years ago Capello wins La Liga with Real Madrid and yet they fire him. Why ? because they did not like the way in which his team played. Now to some that is the drfinition of insanity to others it makes sense.

Sorry 2 years ago not 3.

those who think it makes sense (Calderon) are wrong.
are you saying ronaldo was not breathtaking to watch last season? why not?

Mr. Incognito

It is not just about winning it is about the way in which you win.

This, frankly is rubbish. Say that to the Tyrone supporters in 2003 playing so called "puke football".

Say that to Giovanni Trapatonni and the national soccer team.

Say that any chelsea player under Jose Morinho.

Say it to ANY professional sportsperson. In any code.

Say it to Iker Cassilas

When we beat them there (in Barcelona) in the Champions League (in 2002) no one applauded us. If we play well and win that will be great and if we play badly and win that will be great too.”

Google "I don't care how I win"

The only peolpe that care how beautiful the win is are those who are so elite in their fields that winning is no longer a consideration but taken for granted and they can start sticking tassles and bells on it.

Using Real Madrid firing a manager to substantiate any point is akin to asking a hormonal woman what's wrong. Sometimes they just like to f*cking cry and there is no logic to it.

Just like your point. Cassilas is better than Ronaldo because he wins what? more graciously? My arse. Get some spanish lessons and sit behind a Real Madrid home game and see how he treats the opposition.

EDIT:

redout
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Madrid
Posts: 378
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Hmmmm, maybe you have.

redout

Rubbish ? Ok I cannot accept that as it is the truth. He was forced out of his job because the board under pressure from the supporters did not take to his negative approach to the game.

It was said this is not the Real Madrid way now be that as it may it was a pretty drastic decision to make considering Capello had just delivered Real their first title in three seasons. If you dont know the truth behind that dismissal then please dont try and twist it with some utter bull.

Also me being in Madrid most likely means I know bloody well more about it than yourself. I socialise with these Madrid supporters on a daily basis which gives me thier insight along with what you know because you read it in a newspaper.

When in the name of god did I mention Casillas was better than Ronaldo ? Please read the thread and tell me or are you just making up porkies ?

eZe^

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't be screaming conspiracy if Casillas won it. Goalkeepers are under appreciated and Casillas was nothing short of AMAZING last year.

However the reason I think Ronaldo should win it is that trailblazer seasons like the one he had come along once or twice a decade at most. Zidane in 2002. Ronaldos season at Barcelona is another example. No matter how good the competition is, sometimes one guys is just a shoe in.

Agreed. And that's why Ronaldo will win it. I won't even go into the stupid comment about 10 Messi's dribbling, because if you think that's all Messi has proved in his career so far then you are in my opinion a clueless idiot.

Mr. Incognito

Rubbish ? Ok I cannot accept that as it is the truth. He was forced out of his job because the board under pressure from the supporters did not take to his negative approach to the game.

It was said this is not the Real Madrid way now be that as it may it was a pretty drastic decision to make considering Capello had just delivered Real their first title in three seasons. If you dont know the truth behind that dismissal then please dont try and twist it with some utter bull.

redout- if that's how you treat winning managers I don't want to know the logic. It's like Tom Sawyer trying to convince me that I want to paint that wall. No thank you. Keep your fuzzy head in the clouds attitutde.

I won't even go into the stupid comment about 10 Messi's dribbling, because if you think that's all Messi has proved in his career so far then you are in my opinion a clueless idiot.

I find you your article and this is the thanks I get?

Goals win games. Ronaldo scores goals, hense Ronaldo wins games.

If you can dispute that, you'd better go have a chat with redout about winning verses some fancifull notion of "the way" football should be played.

eZe^

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I find you your article and this is the thanks I get?

Goals win games. Ronaldo scores goals, hense Ronaldo wins games.

If you can dispute that, you'd better go have a chat with redout about winning verses some fancifull notion of "the way" football should be played.

Thanks for the article.

Well if it's that black and white.

Messi has a better goals per game ratio if you look at both players entire careers thus far. Messi being 2 years younger.

I'd also wager on Messi setting up 3 times the amount of assists Ronaldo has.

We can all make sweeping statements.

redout

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

redout- if that's how you treat winning managers I don't want to know the logic. It's like Tom Sawyer trying to convince me that I want to paint that wall. No thank you. Keep your fuzzy head in the clouds attitutde.

Again I will ask you to please read the thread and point out to myself where I said that I supported that ? I stated that it was the belief of certain teams ie: Real Madrid. In my last post I told you that it was a drastic decision. That to me it does not sound like I supported that stance. I think you need to read posts more clearly before you reply.

Mr. Incognito

Messi has a better goals per game ratio if you look at both players entire careers thus far. Messi being 2 years younger.

Wrong

I'd also wager on Messi setting up 3 times the amount of assists Ronaldo has.

How much?

We can all make sweeping statements.

Yes, we can. Some of us however are talking out their holes.

Messi
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=45843&&cc=3888

Goals 110
Assists 51 (there is a mistake in the subbing in 07/08)

Ronaldo
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=22774&cc=3888

Goals 221
Assists 66 (also mistakes in the subbing)

Again I will ask you to please read the thread and point out to myself where I said that I supported that ? I stated that it was the belief of certain teams ie: Real Madrid. In my last post I told you that it was a drastic decision. That to me it does not sound like I supported that stance. I think you need to read posts more clearly before you reply.

Do you really think I care about your opinion that much to go picking apart posts? You think there is a difference between winning and winning the "real madrid" way. You sir, are a nut. You believed it was acceptable to sack a winning manager- that's all I need to know about you. I don't need to read your posts more clearly because there is no logic to them at all. None. The thing I find funny though is that if Real Madrid had signed Ronaldo this summer you'd be here harping on about how great he is.

redout

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

You sir, are a nut. You believed it was acceptable to sack a winning manager- that's all I need to know about you. I don't need to read your posts more clearly because there is no logic to them at all. None. The thing I find funny though is that if Real Madrid had signed Ronaldo this summer you'd be here harping on about how great he is.

Oh my god. For the love of jesus.

Learn to read posts before replying.

I am not going to say anymore to you about that matter.

eZe^

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Yes, we can. Some of us however are talking out their holes.

Messi
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=45843&&cc=3888

Goals 110
Assists 51 (there is a mistake in the subbing in 07/08)

Ronaldo
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=22774&cc=3888

Goals 221
Assists 66 (also mistakes in the subbing)

Em, are you sure you're not getting goals mixed up with games started?

Messi has scored 54 goals in 125 Barcelona appearances. Ronaldo has scored 106 in 284 games for Man Utd and Sporting.

Kinda sums it up if you ask me.

NaiveMelodies

eZe^ wrote: »

Thanks for the article.

Well if it's that black and white.

Messi has a better goals per game ratio if you look at both players entire careers thus far. Messi being 2 years younger.

woops, hes right.

Loco

eZe^ wrote: »

Em, are you sure you're not getting goals mixed up with games started?

Messi has scored 54 goals in 125 Barcelona appearances. Ronaldo has scored 106 in 284 games for Man Utd and Sporting.

Kinda sums it up if you ask me.

Ronaldo is the best

eZe^

Loco wrote: »

Tripe

Great contribution. Considering nothing I posted above was false.

Loco

eZe^ wrote: »

Great contribution.

Great thread

redout

Loco wrote: »

Ronaldo is the best

Good man your name explains it all.

eZe^

Loco wrote: »

Great thread

Wouldn't worry about it, it'll be locked soon.

Loco

redout wrote: »

Good man your name explains it all.

Sorry, what?

eZe^

Loco is spanish for crazy (:P), he thinks you are crazy for calling Ronaldo the best.

Loco

Damn he got me there!

I better go back and rethink my opinion and read this thread for his balanced view!

redout wrote: »

hate this tosser.

Seaneh

There are currently atleast 2 player who are, without doubt, streets ahead of Ronaldo and a handfull more I personally would rate as much better players.

Messi is pretty much the perfect supporting forward/winger. His ball control is second to none and let face it, he is the best player in the world with the ball at his feet, only Ronaldinho comes close.

Kaka is the best number 10 in the world, the perfect link from deep to the box, besides when he is playing under 100% fit he is peerless, him and Messi are insenely talented players.


Also, RONALDO IS NOT A WINGER!

To be a winger you actually have to play on the wing, be able to deliver a pass or corss, have a brian and actually create chances.

Ronaldo scored most of his goals from central posistions, most of his corsses didn't beat the first man, so in cinclusion he is more effect as a central attacker, which thus makes him a centre forward who is used n the wing because he has good pace.

The man is a striker, and he's a damned good one, but he's not the best player in the world.

eZe^

Ronaldo has 42 assists (alot more impressive than I would have initially though) in his United career thus far, can't find his Sporting stats. He played 253 games for United, so that 42 assists in 253 games, Messi has 28 in 125. So it's not 3 times the amount like I initially though, it's more like 1.4.

So can we squash the idea that Messi does nothing but dribble and that he can't score? The people that say that are as stupid as the people that say Ronaldo is in anyway a useless player.

Boggles

Baffling how anyone can dispute Ronaldo at this present moment is not the best player in the world.

He top scored in arguably the toughest league in the world, strikers of the calibre of Torres and Adebayor got no where near him. He top scored in the toughest club cup competition in the world, he plays for a team that won both competitions last season.

Messi struggled for fitness last year and was part of a team that finished nearly 20 points off Real Madrid. Were knocked out of the Champions League by the team Ronaldo plays for.

No one in world football got near Ronaldo last season, if people can't admit he deserves player of the year with no buts, ifs or maybes, then your either taking the piss or you have absoutely no idea what your talking about.

eZe^

Things aren't that black and white imo, Ronaldo was the best, but players like Casillas weren't as far behind Ronaldo as you make out. As you said, he played for the team that beat Barcelona by nearly 20 points in the league, and won the Euro's as the captain of his country.

JPA

I have not waded through this thread.

My opinion:

1:
C. Ronaldo is a git.

2:
C Ronaldo is better than any player you can mention at this present time.
I have not seen any argument to convince me otherwise.
Goals win games, tracking back does not. He does not yet control games like Zidane, Figo or Ronaldinho did.
Maybe he will evolve into that role as he gets older.
But for now there is no more effective player in the world.

redout

Look Ronaldo has added a couple more to his fan club.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12010_4528208,00.html

lordgoat

Seaneh wrote: »

There are currently atleast 2 player who are, without doubt, streets ahead of Ronaldo and a handfull more I personally would rate as much better players.

Messi is pretty much the perfect supporting forward/winger. His ball control is second to none and let face it, he is the best player in the world with the ball at his feet, only Ronaldinho comes close.

Kaka is the best number 10 in the world, the perfect link from deep to the box, besides when he is playing under 100% fit he is peerless, him and Messi are insenely talented players.


Also, RONALDO IS NOT A WINGER!

To be a winger you actually have to play on the wing, be able to deliver a pass or corss, have a brian and actually create chances.

Ronaldo scored most of his goals from central posistions, most of his corsses didn't beat the first man, so in cinclusion he is more effect as a central attacker, which thus makes him a centre forward who is used n the wing because he has good pace.

The man is a striker, and he's a damned good one, but he's not the best player in the world.

I don't think you know who this thread is about sonny.

You are saying that Ronaldo does not create chances?
Cannot pass or cross but is quick so is used on the wing?

Clueless