Higher education Access routes. HEAR / DARE 2010!!

howtobeknown

Hey there ok we got a bit of info today about this hear programme and i was just wondering where do i get the frickin application form for it???

And around how many points would it knock off say if i had to get 450points???

zonEEE

waaaaaaaaa, whats this about ?

howtobeknown

its a programme for students of disadvantaged areas!! if u have a:
1 medical card
2 Ur parents/guardians receive a means-tested social welfare payment.

etc,etc. Its great for those that have feck all money and live in ****ty towns basicaly. u can get cool grants get into college with less points etc. Buliing for it

degausserxo

The percentage knocked off is usually between ten and twenty. They shoulda given you an application form if they came to your school. Got a talk about it today!

SarcasticFairy

Your careers teacher should have application forms, if not, ask them to get you one! Shouldn't be too difficult.

We were told up to 20% off, so like 90ish points max, for 450 points!

GA361

SCANDALOUS :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
The points thing is an outrage.The financial aid is fine.But giving extra points. . :mad::mad::mad:That just p!sses me off.Damn double-standards:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:.

howtobeknown

GA361 wrote: »

SCANDALOUS :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
The points thing is an outrage.The financial aid is fine.But giving extra points. . :mad::mad::mad:That just p!sses me off.Damn double-standards:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:.

Cop on will u . some students dont have the best benifits during secondary level. its nice to give something back to them .
Dont hate mate. no need for tat here

GA361

GA361 wrote: »

SCANDALOUS :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
The points thing is an outrage.The financial aid is fine.But giving extra points. . :mad::mad::mad:That just p!sses me off.Damn double-standards:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:.

I think you're exactly right. Giving extra grants and whatever is perfectly fine; but lowering points is ridiculous. Completely and utterly unfair.

Beau x1

I agree with the above. You either get the books out or not, it's as simple as that in my opinion. I can understand giving out points for people with disabilities, and I definitely agree with financial grants; but I don't think this programme can differentiate who gets the final place in a university course.

My way of seeing it is, if they're not bothering to work for the leaving cert then they won't pull their weight much in college either. I can understand some people can't work at home because of child abuse and so on, but it's extremely difficult to put all this stuff on paper. So giving someone else a place above someone who genuinely works for the points is absolutely ridiculous.

Gloom

Beau x1 wrote: »

I agree with the above. You either get the books out or not, it's as simple as that in my opinion. I can understand giving out points for people with disabilities, and I definitely agree with financial grants; but I don't think this programme can differentiate who gets the final place in a university course.

My way of seeing it is, if they're not bothering to work for the leaving cert then they won't pull their weight much in college either. I can understand some people can't work at home because of child abuse and so on, but it's extremely difficult to put all this stuff on paper. So giving someone else a place above someone who genuinely works for the points is absolutely ridiculous.

Shouldn't they stop grinds schools and stuff then?

SarcasticFairy

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

I think you're exactly right. Giving extra grants and whatever is perfectly fine; but lowering points is ridiculous. Completely and utterly unfair.

They're trying to encourage people who wouldn't normally get to go to college, to go to college.

I'm in a deis school myself, and although I'm not eligible for the scheme, a couple of my friends are going for it and I don't think they're any less deserving of a place in college than anyone else just because they're taking advantage of a scheme designed to get them into college where they wouldn't normally be able to. It's not that they aren't just as bright or intelligent as saayyy (total stereotype, but for arguments sake) a person attending Leeson St. and getting grinds all over the shop. They can't afford grinds and we just don't have the best teachers/resources...

I can see where you're coming from, but it's not that they don't put their heads down and study, they work hard, they're just otherwise disadvantaged.

AFAIK, they're trying to implement the scheme nationwide from next year, I think, obviously no use to present sixth years, but it will offer anyone who is elligible the chance to avail of the points reduction.

But people in grind schools still have to get the necessary points. I'm not defending grind schools by any means, I absolutely dispise them and totally disagree with them.

All I'm saying is, if somebody got into a course on 420 points that normally required 500 points, and they took "my" place even though I got 495-500, that would be totally unfair.

If the scheme allocates additional places in college, then it would be great. But if it takes away places from people who would have normally gotten in, it's not remotely fair.

Beau x1

Gloom wrote: »

Shouldn't they stop grinds schools and stuff then?

You still have to absorb information in grinds, just because they hand you the notes doesn't mean you're going to get straight A's, you still have to learn them.

Piste

What are the exact criteria for HEAR? Is it completely means-tested?

SarcasticFairy

Its definately means-tested, I think both parents combined must earn under €50000 a year.

I know no one in your family can have gone to college before, and they mentioned something about a medical card.... Can't remember exactly, will try find out for you!

The TCD site says about the programme:
The scheme targets those students who have the ability to benefit from and succeed in higher education but who, for a variety of social and economic reasons, are underrepresented at third level. Normally, applicants to the scheme will have been in attendance at a 'linked' school for the entire duration of their second-level education. Students should be highly motivated and interested in studying at undergraduate level in their chosen area.

Maybe more grants would be a fairer way, but I think they are literally trying to give everyone a chance...

Piste

Well seeing as it's totally to do with money I don't think it's very fair. I think a cash grant would be much fairer. Why should someone with lower points than anotyher person get a college place instead of them just cos they have less money? Seems very unfair!

SarcasticFairy

I can't download the brochure cos my laptop is being stupid, but the UCD site says:

"Who can apply?
Leaving Certificate students who:

• Are attending a link school* normally for the duration of their second level education.
• Are from a socio-economic group currently under-represented at third level.
• Come from a low income family/household.
• Come from a family where there has been little or no tradition of participation at third level education.
• Are motivated and interested in pursuing third level education. "

Sorry I can't get the specifics!

JC06

I got offered a place through the HEAR thing this year. I was 5 points off what I wanted so it was great! I don't think it's unfair that I got in using this. One of the perks of going to a rubbish school :P I'd advise everyone to apply even if you don't think you're eligible or if you think you'll get the points.

GA361

howtobeknown wrote: »

Cop on will u . some students dont have the best benifits during secondary level. its nice to give something back to them .
Dont hate mate. no need for tat here

No.You bleedin well cop on.It's unfair treatment like this that causes 'hate','mate'.

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

I think you're exactly right. Giving extra grants and whatever is perfectly fine; but lowering points is ridiculous. Completely and utterly unfair.

++++++1

Beau x1 wrote: »

I agree with the above. You either get the books out or not, it's as simple as that in my opinion. I can understand giving out points for people with disabilities, and I definitely agree with financial grants; but I don't think this programme can differentiate who gets the final place in a university course.

My way of seeing it is, if they're not bothering to work for the leaving cert then they won't pull their weight much in college either. I can understand some people can't work at home because of child abuse and so on, but it's extremely difficult to put all this stuff on paper. So giving someone else a place above someone who genuinely works for the points is absolutely ridiculous.

Exactly.

SarcasticFairy wrote: »

They're trying to encourage people who wouldn't normally get to go to college, to go to college.

I'm in a deis school myself, and although I'm not eligible for the scheme, a couple of my friends are going for it and I don't think they're any less deserving of a place in college than anyone else

The grants should be enough encouragment.
Of course they're not ''any less deserving of a place in college that anyone else'',BUT NEITHER ARE THEY ANY MORE DESERVING OF A PLACE IN COLLEGE THAN ANYONE ELSE!!!!!

GA361

Piste wrote: »

Well seeing as it's totally to do with money I don't think it's very fair. I think a cash grant would be much fairer. Why should someone with lower points than anotyher person get a college place instead of them just cos they have less money? Seems very unfair!

Exactly,and the fact that they are less well off is counteracted by financial support.So why special treatment is given as regards points has me baffled and angered:mad:

JC06 wrote: »

I got offered a place through the HEAR thing this year. I was 5 points off what I wanted so it was great! I don't think it's unfair that I got in using this. One of the perks of going to a rubbish school :P I'd advise everyone to apply even if you don't think you're eligible or if you think you'll get the points.

If you thought that your school was so rubbish,why didn't you find another school?

PurpleFistMixer

Question here; are there specific places reserved for HEAR students in college courses (like the Trinity Access Program yoke, I do believe), or is it just in the mix?

I don't see a problem with this anyway. Some people in society just get an extremely raw deal, so it makes sense to me that they be helped out. I don't think it's fair to say that some people underperform in the exams because they're lazy - if you want to take that attitude, then just put your work in and make sure you get a place over them - your school is probably better equipped, you probably have higher level classes available to you so you can actually GET a maximum of 600 points, you've got an advantage on them, so use it.
I don't see anyone moaning about how unfair it is that they were born into luxury.

The problem is as usual with the difficulty in establishing just who actually needs the help. I think criteria of "earn <x amount", "underrepresented in college" etc., aren't perfect. Your parents could earn very little and have not gone to college etc. but are still extremely encouraging and create a home atsmophere condusive to studying, etc. Similarly, you could go to a non-designated school, and thus be seen as "well off enough", but in actuality not be, and be in dire need of such an assistance.

merryhappy

I don't think the HEAR programme is unfair at all.

Students from schools in these 'disadvantaged areas' are highly under-represented in third level.

In some cases the importance of education is not enforced in their homes, they don't have a quiet place to study, they can't afford grinds, their parents didn't go to college so therefore they might not see the significance.

My friend is from a single-parent family, shes goes to a link school and her mother has Multiple Sclerosis. She doesn't have half as much time to study as I would because she spends most of her time with helping her mam around the house, and working at weekends to support herself because her mam can't afford to give her money. And you think it's not fair thet she gets into her course for less points?

I think the people who feel so strongly about this being so 'unfair' should concenrate on themselves and their on results because it really isn't any of your business how people get into college the point is that they got there.

GA361

merryhappy wrote: »

I don't think the HEAR programme is unfair at all.

Students from schools in these 'disadvantaged areas' are highly under-represented in third level.

I think the people who feel so strongly about this being so 'unfair' should concenrate on themselves and their on results because it really isn't any of your business how people get into college the point is that they got there.

Well. . . It actually is our business if they get in on less points if we could have and should have gotten a place in college,but for the sake of political correctness it was givan to a minority/under-represented class at third level.

degausserxo

SarcasticFairy wrote: »

I know no one in your family can have gone to college before

What? They can have gone!

Looking at it, it is pretty fair. The amount of people that go on to third level in my area, as opposed to say.. (well I'm not gonna mention anywhere specific, but I think yous all know the general area I'm talking about :P) is a lot lower, huge contributing factors being points and requirements for courses that they can't meet, because they can't afford to fork out four grand a term for their education and other grinds. Obviously if the rescources aren't there, they're not gonna do as well.

Also, to whoever it was asked (can't remember, sorry!) 15% of places in each course (except for those with restricted entry) are reserved for HEAR students.

howtobeknown

GA361 wrote: »

Well. . . It actually is our business if they get in on less points if we could have and should have gotten a place in college,but for the sake of political correctness it was givan to a minority/under-represented class at third level.

Look get over it this forum was not so that eejits like u could post mesgs saying its unfair that people with less money and try there best in skul. ur a sack i hope that someone gets into college on the hear program instead of u!! ur a hateful person

howtobeknown

degausserxo wrote: »

What? They can have gone!

Looking at it, it is pretty fair. The amount of people that go on to third level in my area, as opposed to say.. (well I'm not gonna mention anywhere specific, but I think yous all know the general area I'm talking about :P) is a lot lower, huge contributing factors being points and requirements for courses that they can't meet, because they can't afford to fork out four grand a term for their education and other grinds. Obviously if the rescources aren't there, they're not gonna do as well.

Also, to whoever it was asked (can't remember, sorry!) 15% of places in each course (except for those with restricted entry) are reserved for HEAR students.

Ur dead right thanks!!! GA361 hates it coz he can not quailify for it because his loaded ha.

howtobeknown

howtobeknown wrote: »

Look get over it this forum was not so that eejits like u could post mesgs saying its unfair that people with less money and try there best in skul. ur a sack i hope that someone gets into college on the hear program instead of u!! ur a hateful person

He's the hateful person? Look at your own post and compare it to his, I doubt comments like that would be taken to kindly around here.

And he's exactly right. Give the person who can't afford college as much money as they need, I've no problem with that. But don't lower the points. It's completely unfair no matter what way it's looked upon. The person who goes to an average school and has an average amount of money has to work hard to get into the place they want, it's not fair that somebody else can work less hard, get lower points, and steal the other persons place.

SarcasticFairy

GA361 wrote: »

The grants should be enough encouragment.
Of course they're not ''any less deserving of a place in college that anyone else'',BUT NEITHER ARE THEY ANY MORE DESERVING OF A PLACE IN COLLEGE THAN ANYONE ELSE!!!!!

Okay, stop shouting. I wasn't saying they were more deserving of a place, I was just saying, they deserve the chance to get a place and like PurpleFistMixer said [don't know how to do the multiple quote thing but...]

"Some people in society just get an extremely raw deal, so it makes sense to me that they be helped out. I don't think it's fair to say that some people underperform in the exams because they're lazy - if you want to take that attitude, then just put your work in and make sure you get a place over them - your school is probably better equipped, you probably have higher level classes available to you so you can actually GET a maximum of 600 points, you've got an advantage on them, so use it."

Take our higher level classes, out HL maths has 6 people doing it and there's only 4 of us in the HL Irish. It's not that people in my year aren't intelligent, but the teachers and resources in our school just do not compare to some of the "better" schools, and so no matter how much work is put in, we just cannot compete with someone who has everything on their side, and the finance for grinds/better schools/whatever.

GA361
If you thought that your school was so rubbish,why didn't you find another school?

Seriously? We're talking about more disadvantaged schools/areas, it's not always an option to just upgrade...

Degausserxo
What? They can have gone!

:eek: Really? We were told your parents or siblings can't have attended college previously, because apparently its more likely if someone else has gone to college, you will too! Must check that out!

Howtobeknown
ur a sack i hope that someone gets into college on the hear program instead of u!! ur a hateful person

:rolleyes:And that in itself isn't hateful?

PurpleFistMixer

howtobeknown infracted. Consider this a warning. Abuse has no place here.

[/mod]

-JammyDodger- : How do you know they work less hard? You seem to be assuming that the amount of work required to get a certain amount of points is some defined quantity. For some people, it's easy. And not just because they're smarter. Of course that's gonna make it easier, but you can't deny that having a decent school is a great advantage. Having a quiet space to study is an advantage. Having a happy family is an advantage. Having time to yourself when you don't have to work or care for dependent people is an advantage.
And you can't just throw money at everything to make it better. Money doesn't instantly solve social problems. You can't pour money into an alcoholic parent and make them better. You can't buy back a happy marriage after your parents divorce. You can't buy a positive memories of education, and you can't buy self-confidence.

Yes, this is discrimination. So what? Ideally we wouldn't have to do things like this, but until we can solve the problems that lead to people being disadvantaged like this, something must be done to try and bridge the gap.

howtobeknown

Look it doesnt matter what anyone thinks about this really.. its going to happen like it or not!!!!!!!!! wohoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !! infracted for noting just stating the facts !!

SarcasticFairy

SarcasticFairy wrote: »

Take our higher level classes, out HL maths has 6 people doing it and there's only 4 of us in the HL Irish.

That's funny, I would of thought having such small class sizes would be a huge advantage compared to someone who has to share a class with 20 other students.

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Yes, this is discrimination. So what? Ideally we wouldn't have to do things like this, but until we can solve the problems that lead to people being disadvantaged like this, something must be done to try and bridge the gap.

Yah I guess you're right; anyway there isn't much point in my complaining about it. Guess it just gives an incentive to work that little bit harder to gain those extra few points.