Higher education Access routes. HEAR / DARE 2010!!

howtobeknown

howtobeknown wrote: »

Look it doesnt matter what anyone thinks about this really.. its going to happen like it or not!!!!!!!!! wohoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !! infracted for noting just stating the facts !!

With an attitude like that I think the college place you get through HEAR may be a waste.

implausible

Beau x1 wrote: »

My way of seeing it is, if they're not bothering to work for the leaving cert then they won't pull their weight much in college either. I can understand some people can't work at home because of child abuse and so on....

Child abuse? A bit dramatic don't you think??!

It's not a case of underprivileged students not being bothered to work.
This scheme is targeted at the students who are in homes where there is very little money coming in, where they may be working every night to fund their schooling, where there is no space/time/opportunity to study, where they might be raising a family or where there is no tradition of going to college. These students are often in schools where only some finish school, never mind go to college.

Anything that encourages underprivileged students to educate themselves out of the circumstances they are in, is a good thing in my book. In college, they will be treated the same as everyone else, with the same lecturers and tutors as the well-off kids. I would love to see some of my kids, who think university is beyond them, take up this scheme.

In fairness, it's not the 500+ points courses this scheme is really aimed at.

Piste

howtobeknown wrote: »

Look it doesnt matter what anyone thinks about this really.. its going to happen like it or not!!!!!!!!! wohoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !! infracted for noting just stating the facts !!

You were infracted for abusing another poster actually.


And there's nothing wrong with people debating the various advantages and disadvantages of various systems.

I think it's shocking that some schools are designated schools for higher education access, it's like admitting they're crap schools, which shouldn't exist in the first place. It'd be a lot better to pour money into these schools to bring them up to scratch then to be saying to students "your education's crap, you don't need as many points".

zonEEE

I think that scheme is a complete and utter joke. Fine giving a grant but extra points?

Whats is the logic behind this?

Just because they don't have that much money doesn't mean they cant study and get the same points as everyone else.

implausible

Piste wrote: »

I think it's shocking that some schools are designated schools for higher education access, it's like admitting they're crap schools, which shouldn't exist in the first place. It'd be a lot better to pour money into these schools to bring them up to scratch then to be saying to students "your education's crap, you don't need as many points".

Tell that to the Government, they're cutting our money, specifically grants for programmes aimed at keeping students in school, like the LCA.

The designated schools are DEIS ones, which are decided on the number of medical card holders as well as some other factors. Unfortunately, these students, along with the travellers, international students and students with disabilities are lumped into the one school, due to cherry-picking by other schools. Designating a school as DEIS is merely stating a socio-economic fact about the students in it, not saying that their education is crap!:rolleyes:

Piste

Oh ok , I thought all the schools involved in the HEAR were just bad schools, from some of the comments on the thread.

PurpleFistMixer

I'd assume there's quite a lot of things a school has to fulfil (or perhaps not as the case may be) to qualify, beyond simply having lots of medical-card-holding-students in it... Like, I'd say half my class had medical cards but we didn't get any disadvantaged status...

SarcasticFairy

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

That's funny, I would of thought having such small class sizes would be a huge advantage compared to someone who has to share a class with 20 other students.

There's actually a load of OL students in our class too, all at the same time, meaning the teacher is even further distracted because they have to cover both courses, leading to, you need to know this, you don't, meaning a waste of OL's time. HL don't get the attention they need, because the teacher can't concentrate just on us just because we're HL, it's not fair on the OL students. We can't have seperate classes, like HL class and an OL class, because the other OL classes are full to the brim, and there isn't enough teachers/classrooms etc to accommodate us all.

Piste, I have to agree with you about the pouring money into schools to make them generally better places iwth better education, but I don't see that happening any time soon

SarcasticFairy

SarcasticFairy wrote: »

There's actually a load of OL students in our class too, all at the same time, meaning the teacher is even further distracted because they have to cover both courses, leading to, you need to know this, you don't, meaning a waste of OL's time. HL don't get the attention they need, because the teacher can't concentrate just on us just because we're HL, it's not fair on the OL students. We can't have seperate classes, like HL class and an OL class, because the other OL classes are full to the brim, and there isn't enough teachers/classrooms etc to accommodate us all.

Oh right, I just presumed there was 6 in an individual classroom with their own teacher. The fact that it's shared changes things completely.

implausible

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

I'd assume there's quite a lot of things a school has to fulfil (or perhaps not as the case may be) to qualify, beyond simply having lots of medical-card-holding-students in it... Like, I'd say half my class had medical cards but we didn't get any disadvantaged status...

Half your class, assuming that figure carried through to the rest of your school, is 50%. Try dealing with 80%, then you really have an interesting mix of students and disadvantages! Finishing school is the aim, regardless of ability, college is something for other people.

implausible

SarcasticFairy wrote: »

We can't have seperate classes, like HL class and an OL class, because the other OL classes are full to the brim, and there isn't enough teachers/classrooms etc to accommodate us all.

I hear ya! HL can't even be offered in my place for the same reason.

SarcasticFairy

deemark wrote: »

I hear ya! HL can't even be offered in my place for the same reason.

Oh really? That's pretty crap There's nothing they can do?

THAT is why point reductions are required for deis schools. We're offered HL, although not many people actually ever get there, but I'm sure there are a lot more schools in deemarks position, and who therefore, no matter how much they want to get x amount of points, cannot possibly because of how their school has hindered them by not offering HL, even if they are really intelligent.

Grants won't change the fact there's no room for a HL class.

Piste

A grant given to people to take HL classes outside school would be pretty good I think!

PurpleFistMixer

deemark wrote: »

Half your class, assuming that figure carried through to the rest of your school, is 50%. Try dealing with 80%, then you really have an interesting mix of students and disadvantages! Finishing school is the aim, regardless of ability, college is something for other people.

I could argue that a 50:50 split is a more interesting mix, but having a medical card doesn't really say anything about interesting you are. : p
There were a fair number of people in my school who were basically "college is for other people" but there were people who did want to go there, but assumed they wouldn't be able to. It was a bit sad.

implausible

Piste wrote: »

A grant given to people to take HL classes outside school would be pretty good I think!

Reducing the pupil-teacher ratio would allow for a variety if levels but the Govt have gone and done the opposite. :mad:

implausible

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

I could argue that a 50:50 split is a more interesting mix, but having a medical card doesn't really say anything about interesting you are. : p

'interesting' was a euphemism for difficult, and at times, unteachable.

thatone!

I think that the lowering of the points is completely fair!
I am actually involved in one of the TAP programmes, and as it was described to us on our first day, the reason for lowering the points is that they want people in college who want to work for their spot, they want people of different backgrounds. And we were told....your a lot more likely to put the work into the course because you know your lucky to have a spot through HEAR.


As for the requirements, i think that the combined income for your family has to be under like €50,000 or something like that.
You also have to write a type of essay describing why you deserve the course.

hunnymonster

Had TAP/Access/Hear scheme's been available when I was in school, I'm sure I would have been eligible. From a social and economic point of view we were located and earning bottom of the pile. BUT, I think lowering the points just perpetuates the problem. Imagine you get into college by this back door, are you not always going to wonder if you are second best? The academics know who the access people are, maybe this influences their marking? Maybe the college applies pressure to graduate the correct number of underrepresented groups? I'm glad I got into college on a level playing field. Sure, maybe I had to work a bit harder than the person who had grinds, maybe I would have been top of my year rather than top of my class if I didn't have to work while in college but I continued my education right through to level 10 and I know I did it because of my brain not my socio-economic classification.

degausserxo

thatone! wrote: »

You also have to write a type of essay describing why you deserve the course.

And for certain courses, like Vet Med, Radiography, Architecture.. can't remember what others.. in UCD, you've to do an interview as well, to say why you deserve the place rather than someone with the full amount of points. So it's not all just ''here ya go, have some free points.''

KnifeWRENCH

OK this post isn't debating whether the HEAR and extra points thing is fair or unfair, this is just general information for people interested in applying.

I started at UCC last year and I was eligible for the HEAR programme. I didn't need any extra points because I got my course comfortably, but the grant is a big help! The staff there are great - if you have any problems during the year they're very approachable. They also work with postgrad students and college staff who'll give grinds. I got Chemistry grinds in 1st Year (having not done Chemistry for the Leaving Cert) and they were a big help.

Just a few things to anyone who's planning on doing it:

When filling out the application form, they ask you for a lot of financial information, so if your parents are self-employed they'll ask for a load of accounts and stuff. My Mam initially wasn't too happy with me doing it because she felt the Access people wanted too much information. But when I got my extra grant, she was very glad I did it.

You have to do an "Orientation Week" at the college, just to ease you into college life. This is compulsory, so if you don't show up you don't get your cheques. They pack a load of stuff into it and it's a fairly long and tiring week, but on the bright side it's an early oppurtunity to make friends.

The grant is paid in two installments, one in the first term of college and one in the second term of college. You'll have a one-to-one meeting with a member of staff (usually only 5-10 mins) where they'll make sure you're coping ok. At the end of this meeting you get your cheque.
The amount you will get varies - it epends on how many students have successfully applied for HEAR and how much funding they are allocated for the year.

thatone! wrote: »

You also have to write a type of essay describing why you deserve the course.

Yes, that was the worst part of the whole thing imo. Having to write an essay about yourself is a lot harder than it sounds!

However, all in all, I would recommend everyone who's eligible to apply for it.

If anyone is planning on going to UCC in September and thinks they might be eligible for the HEAR route, you can get more information here:
http://www.ucc.ie/en/uccplus/

There are contact details for the staff if you've any questions.

howtobeknown

square_igloo wrote: »

OK this post isn't debating whether the HEAR and extra points thing is fair or unfair, this is just general information for people interested in applying.

I started at UCC last year and I was eligible for the HEAR programme. I didn't need any extra points because I got my course comfortably, but the grant is a big help! The staff there are great - if you have any problems during the year they're very approachable. They also work with postgrad students and college staff who'll give grinds. I got Chemistry grinds in 1st Year (having not done Chemistry for the Leaving Cert) and they were a big help.

Just a few things to anyone who's planning on doing it:

When filling out the application form, they ask you for a lot of financial information, so if your parents are self-employed they'll ask for a load of accounts and stuff. My Mam initially wasn't too happy with me doing it because she felt the Access people wanted too much information. But when I got my extra grant, she was very glad I did it.

You have to do an "Orientation Week" at the college, just to ease you into college life. This is compulsory, so if you don't show up you don't get your cheques. They pack a load of stuff into it and it's a fairly long and tiring week, but on the bright side it's an early oppurtunity to make friends.

The grant is paid in two installments, one in the first term of college and one in the second term of college. You'll have a one-to-one meeting with a member of staff (usually only 5-10 mins) where they'll make sure you're coping ok. At the end of this meeting you get your cheque.
The amount you will get varies - it epends on how many students have successfully applied for HEAR and how much funding they are allocated for the year.


Yes, that was the worst part of the whole thing imo. Having to write an essay about yourself is a lot harder than it sounds!

However, all in all, I would recommend everyone who's eligible to apply for it.

If anyone is planning on going to UCC in September and thinks they might be eligible for the HEAR route, you can get more information here:
http://www.ucc.ie/en/uccplus/

There are contact details for the staff if you've any questions.

YES!!!!!!!:pac::pac::D Thank you so so much;) ur the only person that understands why i started this post!! to get info about the HEAR program and to understand the requirements etc. thanks so much its more people like u we need on here..
Not people saying its not fair etc etc.:mad: Thanks again Il def apply hope i get it!!

KnifeWRENCH

You're welcome!

GA361

SarcasticFairy wrote: »

There's actually a load of OL students in our class too, all at the same time, meaning the teacher is even further distracted because they have to cover both courses, leading to, you need to know this, you don't, meaning a waste of OL's time. HL don't get the attention they need, because the teacher can't concentrate just on us just because we're HL, it's not fair on the OL students. We can't have seperate classes, like HL class and an OL class, because the other OL classes are full to the brim, and there isn't enough teachers/classrooms etc to accommodate us all.

Piste, I have to agree with you about the pouring money into schools to make them generally better places iwth better education, but I don't see that happening any time soon

Its the same across the country,though. . .well the same in my school. . when the ordinary level students don't have to pay attention while the higher parts of the course are being thaught,they are just given work by the teacher.Personally I don't see anything wrong with this method. . . but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.

SarcasticFairy

GA361 wrote: »

Its the same across the country,though. . .well the same in my school. . when the ordinary level students don't have to pay attention while the higher parts of the course are being thaught,they are just given work by the teacher.Personally I don't see anything wrong with this method. . . but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I originally mentioned it because I was trying to show that they're trying to get more people from less advantaged backgrounds into college, two years ago something like 2% of the whole of sixth year went on to third level... I know the stat is slightly more now, but still lower than the average. My whole point was that my HL level classes are much smaller than the average class. I know generally in option subjects in most schools, classes are mixed, but as far as I was aware generally the core subjects wern't mixed! I don't know, I'm just going by my own schools and the schools around our area! I could be way off the mark like!

spurious

There are people in this country who this year will be the first person in their family to do a Junior Cert., let alone a Leaving or go to college.

It must be lovely to sit in a position of literate, fed, housed, decently-parented, educated, internet-accessing privilege and rant about a few places being reserved to give others a chance.

KnifeWRENCH

Hmm it seems the OP was banned for sending absive PM's to someone! :eek: Maybe I shouldn't have bothered giving him any information?

Fad

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Question here; are there specific places reserved for HEAR students in college courses (like the Trinity Access Program yoke, I do believe), or is it just in the mix?

Probably a bit late, but I'd say they leave places aside for HEAR students, likr they do for mature students.

thomasdubarry

:cool::PIts totally fair !!! Even tho i cannot avail of this offer but i like it !! hate to see people not getting to college because of the goverment not supporting their schools and the like!!

Ha what happened in this forum howtobeknown shouldnt of been banned like but i spouse ya dnt do the crime if ya cant do the time!!!:eek:

Piste

So you think posters should be free to abuse other posters do you?

bythewoods

thomasdubarry, you're a new member I see?
You have a very similar writing style to howtobeknown I must say. Not that I'm insinuating anything or anything like that, merely pointing it out....