Air Corps to deliver match ball tonight Munster V New Zealand

Steyr

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/legend-lomu-laps-up-awesome-atmosphere-in-rugbymad-city-1542975.html


Weather permitting of course. This match is going to be shown on RTE2 also live, KO is 19:30.

spadder

Thats a bit OTT, pardon the pun. That's just a cover, the helicopter is there to evac cowen and o'dee if the crowd turn on them. Is Harney going?:D

Steyr

How cool was that, an AW139 comes into the hover and i believe it was ARW members who fast roped to deliver the ball?


WELL DONE.:D

Hagar

Get them back... quickly...

Is Harney going?

Are they in a Chinook?

zig

yea I thought it looked cool, a bit cheesy but still its not the first time I heard of that, too bad about the final result though:(

purple'n'gold

Hagar wrote: »

Get them back... quickly...


Are they in a Chinook?

Is Harney going?
No, she came in this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDWWQTWEG3o

lostexpectation

fantastic that they had the balls to absail like that

minidazzler

lostexpectation wrote: »

fantastic that they had the balls to absail like that

It's there job!

djtechnics1210

Is there a link to the video of this

djtechnics1210

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b99a7jZfqSE

lostexpectation

minidazzler wrote: »

It's there job!

it was lay up of a joke, you were supposed to say yes, oval balls

mikemac

Brilliant idea, fair play

Morpheus

Not to be pedantic but....
Was it not fast roping?
The rangers dont usually absail out of choppers

twinytwo

Morphéus wrote: »

Not to be pedantic but....
Was it not fast roping?
The rangers dont usually absail out of choppers

it was fast roping

iceage

Yip, fast roping.

newby.204

im in the army and what a ridiculous waste of taxpayers money!! imo

Manic Moran

Killjoy.

NTM

OS119

Manic Moran wrote: »

Killjoy.

NTM

not sure i agree.

the Irish military faces a funding crisis and its currently engaged in one of the largest and potentially 'hottest' deployments its done for decades - incidentally one that is particularly defficient in helicopters, a fault that may well prove fatal to the aims of the mission - and yet the arm of service that deploys least and owns the helicopters somehow manages to find crew-time and flying hours to fly a rugby ball to a match....

now, we all know that the 139's and their crews aren't fit in operational terms to deploy - and that if they did all four airframes would be smoking holes in the ground in a month - and that the government has decided that even when the 'fleet' is up to speed it won't be deployed overseas (i wonder who persuaded them to take that veiw...), however, even within those contraints those flying hours could have been much better spent getting the Army closer to its objective of being conversant with modern RW operations or getting the AC up to speed with night flying.

personally i can imagine that for an Irish company commander sat in a dust-blown tent in timbuktoo who's tearing his hair out because he's got four men and a dog to patrol and dominate an area the size of france and no helicopters to do it with, seeing some wardodger ensure he'll get laid by using said expensive and hugely needed helicopter to drop off a football would be a tad demoralising.

the RAF has had similar problems - blokes pissing treacle and running out of mortar rounds in A'stan because there's no more Chinooks, yet Prince William manages to find a spare one to show off to his girlfriend with, or the Red Arrows taking a dozen fast jet pilots to Cyprus for 6 months (as part of a 3 year tour) while the Typhoon delivery schedule is being put back because there's no pilots and the Harrier force being on its arse because of a lack of crew.

there are usually very good reasons for such 'odd' decisions, but that doesn't stop them being catastrophic for morale and making the service look like its got some very odd priorities for one thats at war - or who's army counterparts are in some fly-blown hellhole trying to prevent a disaster.

diverdriver

Agreed, it was a pointless waste of resources. In another thread on the aviaton forum. I have stated my belief that the Air Corps is simply a waste of taxpayers money in it's present form. The majority of roles they currently carry out could easily be done by civilian contractors not least because most of the are in fact essentially civilian. The one role they really should involved in is helicopter support for the army. Which they cannot provide. The suitability of the AW139 for it's purpose has been mentioned before. Meanwhile the PC9s are flitting around the country burning money to no purpose at all.

I firmly believe the Air Corps should revert to a role as army support and go back to green uniforms and be an all helicopter force with a small fixed wing cadre for other army type roles.

I was a great supporter of the Air Corps. Indeed, one regret of mine was that I didn't enlist when I had the chance. But it has outlived it's usefulness. Indeed if you look at it, what compared to the Navy and Army it has little operational responsibilities.

petergfiffin

OS119 wrote: »

however, even within those contraints those flying hours could have been much better spent getting the Army closer to its objective of being conversant with modern RW operations or getting the AC up to speed with night flying..

Seemed pretty dark to me!!

The reason this was done was to raise the profile of the Defence Forces soiIf you think about it the DF actually got fantastic value for money considering it was one of the most watched events on Irish TV all year and you can be sure more people will remember that than all the "life less ordinary" ads on TV.

The whole argument about Chad is moot too cause the fact is these helis aren't going, end of, so if they use them here to transport rugby balls, ping pong balls it isn't going to make a blind bit of difference to somebody in Chad or wherever. If it's going to be a case of "down with this sort of thing" cause it's expensive then why not stop the army marching in St Patricks Day, Guards of Honour, Air Corps fly pasts, Naval courtesy visits and the Reserves

Rew

I see loads of value in the AC training to bring a heli in to a tight area and have 2 rangers fast rope out of it. Then add the massive PR benifit and its win win.

diverdriver

the fact is these helis aren't going

That's the point. They aren't going anywhere. They can barely deploy outside Baldonnel. Is there any point in having expensive helicopters painted green that can't be deployed anywhere? Their only usefullness is to train soldiers to be familiar with heli operations to prepare them for the time when they actually fly in helicopters either civilian or military overseas. That in itself is a laudable use and is in fact a job the Air Corps can do. But it's a training job not an operational job. There are expensive for what they do.

Dropping a rugby ball into a high profile match is neither here nor there. It wasn't any use for night training. Flying into a large stadium is quite different to landing a section in a dark field using only NVGs?

Rew

diverdriver wrote: »

That's the point. They aren't going anywhere. They can barely deploy outside Baldonnel. Is there any point in having expensive helicopters painted green that can't be deployed anywhere? Their only usefullness is to train soldiers to be familiar with heli operations to prepare them for the time when they actually fly in helicopters either civilian or military overseas. That in itself is a laudable use and is in fact a job the Air Corps can do. But it's a training job not an operational job. There are expensive for what they do.

Dropping a rugby ball into a high profile match is neither here nor there. It wasn't any use for night training. Flying into a large stadium is quite different to landing a section in a dark field using only NVGs?

They are civie spec helis not mil spec so they are never ever going anywhere. Mil spec ones are really really expensive. They are only for training troops for heli ops.

It was has a training value regadless of the light.

OS119

Rew wrote: »

They are civie spec helis not mil spec so they are never ever going anywhere. Mil spec ones are really really expensive. They are only for training troops for heli ops.

It was has a training value regadless of the light.

the only training value it had was getting yet another Army to think that its flying counter-part is 'utterly, utterly useless'...

if the purpose of the helicopter buy was to produce an army used to working with the helicopters of others they would use overseas (a very short-sighted, poor man's idea, but there you go), then a long term civi contract would of been a vastly cheaper and more efficient way of meeting that aim. you only need the capability for specific and planned AirLand exercises, so why pay for all the 'sitting around doing FA' stuff that comes with owning a platform?

there are only two reason's in aviation that you buy stuff rather than charter it - firstly so that you can take it where you want, when you want and do whatever the hell you like with it (like sandy hellholes at 3am with lots of whizzing metal flying about and none too many utterly secure and air-conditioned aviation workshops) and so that if you break it you don't have to say sorry and pay a large wedge.

the Irish government is never going to send its precious ministerial limosines - oops... i mean troop transport helicopters! overseas where they might get damaged, so the the "what have we got right now and how quickly can we get it to Chad?" question is never going to be asked, and and given that they aren't going anywhere operational the risks of breaking them decrease markedly.

quite simply, for what their role is - in the wider scheme of the future of the Irish military - there was no point whatsoever in buying them outright, they are nothing more than a willy-waving exercise (and not overly impressive willies tbh...) by the AC.

Rew

Your getting a bit beyond the point of delivering the ball dont you think? There was no harm in it. Its not as if they dont do flights to the curragah to do fast ropeing practice so this time they flew to croker, big deal.

concussion

Rew wrote: »

Your getting a bit beyond the point of delivering the ball dont you think? There was no harm in it. Its not as if they dont do flights to the curragah to do fast ropeing practice so this time they flew to croker, big deal.

Well said.

Every time they take an aircraft up its training for the aircrew. This one was good training for night flying and co-ordination. Maybe that pilot was in the middle of his flight training and had a scheduled night flight? Isn't it better that his flight generated some interest and pride in the DF rather than simply buzzing the Glen or something?
I'm no expert (:pac:) but I'd say transitioning from darkness and open skys to a brightly lit, enclosed environment and back to dark would be a difficult enough manouvre in itself (not hugely difficult but certainly more so than usual). Likewise it was good training for the crew and for the two boys who fast roped in.
The response to it was amazing, people who have no interest whatsoever in the DF have been talking about it for days. Why? Because it looks bloody cool.

Manic Moran

Flying into a large stadium is quite different to landing a section in a dark field using only NVGs?

You're right. It is different. doesn't mean to say it's in any way easier, though. Stadia have this annoying habit of stirring the wind currents, for example, and can be more unpredictable than an open field. Also, if you've ever tried transiting from a dark to a light place with NVGs you'll note that the transition really isn't easy at all. (That said, I doubt they actually flew transit with NVGs.)

Anything the Army does can be made into a training event. Even PR stunts.

NTM

Steyr

IF anything it was excellent PR for the Air Corps, nothing wrong with it, it happens in the UK and US and go knows where else too so alot of people are blowing it out just a bit, enjoy it for what it was.

Also the AW139 fleet is bigger now as AW139 ( 279 ) arrived at Baldonnel on November 15th 2008.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

newby.204 wrote: »

im in the army and what a ridiculous waste of taxpayers money!! imo

Definate killjoy...

We could talk about cutbacks and the crisis we are in at the moment, but I am not sure that is what the topic is about. Our tax is wasted on a lot worse than this entertainment. Do we pay for clean needles for the heroin junkies?

Fair play to the lads, great opening to a game.

Hagar

The public perception of the DF is very important, this small act has raised the profile far in excess of the small cost involved. IMHO it was worth the effort. A little bit of glamour / razzamatazz doesn't hurt.

petergfiffin

Rew wrote: »

so this time they flew to croker, big deal.

Must have been very quiet when they got there seeing as the match was in Thomond......typical Air Corps!! .....sorry couldn't resist!!!!

iceage

Yeah! Limerick boy!

you know, for the amount of dosh they blow flying and driving our TD's and what not around the place, surely you wouldn't begrudge that for the opening of the game?

It was a major buzz for Joe public, and why not show off our DF once in a while? It had nothing but a positive effect and outcome for the Irish DF, even if we we lost the match (the Kiwis got some game though)

newby.204

Hagar wrote: »

The public perception of the DF is very important, this small act has raised the profile far in excess of the small cost involved. IMHO it was worth the effort. A little bit of glamour / razzamatazz doesn't hurt.

not much point in raisng public profile when they are freezing recruitment next year hagar!!!

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Of course there is, it's not all about recruiting. Any large organisation like the DF which is active all year round, serving over seas etc etc would need some level of positive PR in order to get public support. Would I be right?

eroo

newby.204 wrote: »

im in the army and what a ridiculous waste of taxpayers money!! imo

I was at the match, and I can tell you it did no harm for PR. Don't be such a dry****e! Recruitment was going to stop anyways, not having a heli fly into Thomond wouldn't change that!

Poccington

It was a great decision to use the Air Corps and ARW to deliver the match ball. As it is, we don't get enough opportunities to show the public some of the skills we have as soldiers. This was a great little bit of PR for the DF as a whole and was an event that the people in the stadium seemed to enjoy.

In my opinion, more should be done to put the DF in the public eye to show exactly what we're capable of and where their money is going. This will do nothing but help boost the DF's reputation in this country.

OS119

Poccington wrote: »

It was a great decision to use the Air Corps and ARW to deliver the match ball. As it is, we don't get enough opportunities to show the public some of the skills we have as soldiers. This was a great little bit of PR for the DF as a whole and was an event that the people in the stadium seemed to enjoy.

In my opinion, more should be done to put the DF in the public eye to show exactly what we're capable of and where their money is going. This will do nothing but help boost the DF's reputation in this country.

perhaps a better way to show the skill sets and worth of the defence forces would be to, oh, i don't know, show them doing a worthwhile job that you actually pay them for - like sending the biggest deployment you can to Chad to stop hundred of thousands of people dying of malnutrition, disease and the depradations of various gangs of hoods in 4x4's - and while you're doing that don't show the 'left behind' parts of the defence forces fannying about.

OS119

Poccington wrote: »

It was a great decision to use the Air Corps and ARW to deliver the match ball. As it is, we don't get enough opportunities to show the public some of the skills we have as soldiers. This was a great little bit of PR for the DF as a whole and was an event that the people in the stadium seemed to enjoy.

In my opinion, more should be done to put the DF in the public eye to show exactly what we're capable of and where their money is going. This will do nothing but help boost the DF's reputation in this country.

perhaps a better way to show the skill sets and worth of the defence forces would be to, oh, i don't know, show them doing a worthwhile job that you actually pay them for - like sending the biggest deployment you can to Chad to stop hundred of thousands of people dying of malnutrition, disease and the depradations of various gangs of hoods in 4x4's - and while you're doing that don't show the 'left behind' parts of the defence forces fannying about.

trentf

Great to see where the irish governments priorities lie what between hannifins haircuts and fas scams... its not hard to see why the military has been neglected for so long in this country.

I'm not suggesting that what happened was a bad thing, it was a good thing that the crew and helicopter was used to deliver the match ball for such a historic event but you have to look at it in the wider scheme of how the military is treated by the government. I can certainly understand the anger that military personel would have seeing this occuring whilst they are forced to rent U.N helicopters in chad because their own government wouldn't bother to pick up a proper military helicopters in the good economic times (you know ones which actually have armour on them or could withstand small arms fire), and im sure you'll all know the economic good times are now truely over..

So whos to blame for all this. It's pretty obvious where the blame lies..squarely on the shoulders of the government. To those who think the government has actually contributed to the military out of its own coffers remember that amost funds for supposed equipment upgrades came from the sale of land and barracks previously owned by the army. Like chopping off a leg to go out and buy a brand new implant leg.

It's been 20 years of neglect folks...20 years.. a few piecemeal gestures at the end of the decade is a little too late. No other military in the world uses this helicopter augusta westland for military purposes because its not suited for that, its civillian equipment through and through. The irish government has taken the military and public for a ride pretending to modernise it, when it offloads members, barracks and salaries for piecemeal equipment under the illusion they are modernising things.

It paints civillian helicopters green, buys them in limited quanities, uses them and pc-9 trainers, (training for what exactly?) exclusively in ireland for ferrying themselves around vip style, using them for match ball delivery, as an hospital ambulance service , or presenting them at parade flyovers to make the public say ' hey look we have a military and helicopters wow'.


Meanwhile troops go without proper transport in overseas missions whilst looking in frustration and envy at how other european countries have proper transport available. Face facts we don't have an aer corps it doesn't exist. Baldonnel is a joke, its bascially civillians flying helicopters so they can get coushy jobs with ryanair or aer lingus.. comon.

I am not for one moment blaming the aer corps or army personnel for this on the contrary i have utmost sympathy for them. They have to make do with what these corrupt politicians give them. Its a little hard to swallow this situation in this context. I sense the days of embarrassment are turning into anger as the realisation becomes apparent between army and aer corps personnel at how much they have had the wool pulled over their eyes. For those of you who think having 6 civillian helicopters as a proper defence force, you guys are gonna have to wake up someday and understand how things operate in the real world. Realise its just another token gesture in a long line of token gestures with the promise of something better to come. Nothing better ever comes. This is laughable if it wasn't for the fact that it's taxpayers money paying for this grand illusion.


To those arguing the same happens in other countries remember in other countries where helicopters or other military equipment are used at public events i.e red arrows, its a little different because they actually have a proper military force. I think this is where the angst comes from.. And rightly so, but then we all know who's responsible for the mess...

arybvtcw0eolkf

Rew wrote: »

Your getting a bit beyond the point of delivering the ball dont you think?

I have to agree with this.

Although no one could logically argue against the points made by OS119, but I believe this match was something special in so far as it came a week after the murder of that innocent rugby player Shane Geoghan, and hosting the All Blacks is always (IMO) going to be a celebration of rugby anyway.

I think its a major win in PR terms' for the Defence Forces and I think a new thread to discuss the short coming of our heli-ops both here and oversea would be a good idea since there's obviously strong (and seemingly informed) opinion on it here.

concussion

trentf wrote: »

(you know ones which actually have armour on them or could withstand small arms fire),

You'll be very hard pressed to find a helicopter which can withstand small arms fire. The only real protection is in not getting hit.

trentf

attack helicopters can take a certain amount of small arms fire the apache is designed to take small arms fire and is kevlar and armour protected . Seems to hold up pretty well in iraq under small arms attack provided it doesn't linger too long.

arybvtcw0eolkf

trentf wrote: »

attack helicopters can take a certain amount of small arms fire the apache is designed to take small arms fire and is kevlar and armour protected . Seems to hold up pretty well in iraq under small arms attack provided it doesn't linger too long.

Well I don't think the heli in this thread was likely to come under any kind of small arms fire - how about a new thread on the topic of combat heli's, our heli-ops here and oversea's and our lack of ability to provide same?.

concussion

trentf wrote: »

attack helicopters can take a certain amount of small arms fire the apache is designed to take small arms fire and is kevlar and armour protected . Seems to hold up pretty well in iraq under small arms attack provided it doesn't linger too long.

The Apache holds up as long as it uses it does what it was designed for - engage the enemy from long range (6-8 km). If it comes closer (for close air support) or is ambushed then it's very vulnerable and HMG and RPG fire can do significant damage. Yes, the armour and redundancies will protect the crew and allow the aircraft to limp home but they're very easy to put out of the fight.
Have a look here
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jir/jir030626_1_n.shtml
31 out of 32 aircraft damaged with little to show
and read up on Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan - 5 out of 6 aircraft badly damaged early in the fight.

The Janes article illustrates how well the Cobra's did with less protection - speed is the only thing which will keep you in the fight.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Seem's like I'm wasting my time.

Locked.