Pamela Enitan Izevbekhai

ParkRunner

By your logic T-Runner, no person should be deported to Nigeria. Would you be happy to see all 1,000 (approx) asylum seekers from Nigeria who applied in 2007 granted asylum or leave to remain?

http://www.orac.ie/pdf/PDFCustService/AnnualReports/Annual%20Report%202007%20English.pdf

Or as I stated should we grant Pamela and her 2 daughters permission to remain and deport the remaining 225 asylum seekers in Globe House to their various countries of origin without an eyebrow raised?

opo

T runner wrote: »

Well, you did claim it made her case "dodgy".
If the appeals tribunal concentrates on how the asylum seeker arrived in the country during their hearing the asylum seeker has a valid case for a judicial review because the tribunal member did not carry out the hearing correctly. (which is very common in Ireland and costly to our country).

This again does not stack up.

I will allow that perhaps judicial reviews arise, but as I have stated on a number of occasions, the threshold for launching vexatious judicial reviews is virtually non-existent.

If you could give a single example of a successfull judicial review in this instance that went on to establish a fault in this part of the interview procedure, I will gladly retract.

As I have stated - where credibility is taken into account - an applicant that has told a tissue of lies regarding how they arrived here, is on shaky ground as to establishing credibility as to why they are here - particularily where there is no other proof of events - other than their statements.

And this is the very scenario most asylum seekers find themselves in and why credibility is a key part of deciding whether to accept or reject a claim for asylum.

elshambo

T runner wrote: »

Well, you did claim it made her case "dodgy".
If the appeals tribunal concentrates on how the asylum seeker arrived in the country during their hearing the asylum seeker has a valid case for a judicial review because the tribunal member did not carry out the hearing correctly. (which is very common in Ireland and costly to our country).

Such terrible attempts at avoiding an easy question, its yourself your tying up with these loops and tangents your throwing, no one else

I NEVER SAID HER CASE WAS DODGY

I SAID:

elshambo wrote: »

In fact from my readings of her supporters arguements i really am starting to belive that she is hiding something and her case is dodgy!?

your not even reading sentences, your scanning for things to attack, btw its
your posts as much as anything that make me think she is lying :eek:

T runner wrote: »

This is the Sligo forum. According to the Sligo Champion a big majority of people want her to stay.

The champion speak for the vast majority?
You would even get laughed at in their offices if you said that to THEM!

T runner wrote: »

No, but the Sligo champion spoke for the vast majority according to its poll.

Highly scientific poll id say, id imagine it contained 100's of questions expensively put together to get to peoples real feelings!?:o

Everytime you try spin you hurt YOUR case
Attacking everyposter as if they are the same hurts YOUR case
Assuming your smarter than those your dealing with hurts YOUR case
Assuming everyone who asks a question/ makes a point is wrong/racist/ive seen God and the likes mention by her supporters, HURTS YOUR case!

BTW, just for you, im saying, as Ive been left with no other option, taking into account the trials and her defence's refusal to answer simple questions without going on the attack

HER CASE IS looking a bit DODGY!!!!
good work on turning members of the far left against you!:o:eek:

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Big_Mac

EF wrote: »

Well from info on the net Pamela is living in accommodation provided to asylum seekers

(Globe House Refuge Centre).

Spoiler added in case her in-laws are present. I haven't seen anything on the news or in the papers really about why the rest of those in this accommodation centre should stay.

No Spoiler needed. With the amount of momentum and media coverage that this case has gathered, its not that difficult to figure out where she is staying. Its even in her propaganda video.

T runner wrote: »

This is the Sligo forum. According to the Sligo Champion a big majority of people want her to stay.

If you feel that way, then why not start a poll here to see what the results are? I for one would be glad to see this.

Survey the right people, and you can get whatever response you want. I wasn't asked in this survey, and I am from sligo.

May I interject BlackieBest?
Allowing her to stay would show the world that Ireland will not accept empty promises from corrupt regimes in Nigeria to "protect" its citizens. It will send a message that creating laws to give the appearance of protecting its citizens from gender based torture will not suffice. They must carry out their Laws on the ground. This will force the Irish government (at least) to force Nigeria to do something about its problems. It will show integrity on our part and the ripple effect may help save countless women in Nigeria. The majority of Sligo people who support her should feel rightly proud should this happen.

Going on this information, could I deduce that you think all refugees fearing FGM in nigeria should be granted asylum, or is it that PI should just be granted asylum. If so, what are the circumstances that would differentiate her from any other FGM related asylum seeker, as judging by what you have said previously, clearly this family are not the only people that are at risk as there are no 'Adequate state protections against FGM in Nigeria'. Is you're arguement objecively based on the FGM issue, or subjective for Pamela?

donegalfella wrote: »

That's a rather disingenuous claim. You have freely been cutting and pasting into this thread material that you have already posted in the Politics forum. You have been quarreling with posters here over the extent of state protections in Nigeria, the role of Stella Obasanjo as a human rights activist, corruption in the Nigerian police force, the alleged inadequacies of the Irish asylum system, and many other things that have nothing whatsoever to do with Sligo. And now you are trying to pretend that you are not using this thread to conduct a political debate. You absolutely are.

The Izevbekhai asylum story is a matter of national—indeed, international—interest. It should be treated as such. The fact that Izevbekhai is housed in Sligo is a relatively minor detail that has no bearing on the substance of her claims, and it certainly doesn't give people from Sligo any exclusive prerogative over debating the pros and cons of her legal appeals.

It is ultimately up to the moderators in this forum to decide what does and does not belong here. However, I am of the personal opinion that you and blackiebest moved over to a quiet regional sub-forum because people were asking you too many questions in the main Politics forum that you couldn't answer. There is absolutely nothing distinguishing the tone or content of your posts here from the posts you were previously making in the Politics forum—as EF, opo, and others will be able to attest.

I will attest to this. I will also add that I have found that on more than one occasion that T runner will engage in double standards. T runner has been condescending on occasion, and also said in a previous post that he will not reply to someone here any further, in fact he doesn't reply to me. It appears that he won't engage someone that has made a smart comment about his character, yet when questions are put two him, he engages in smart derogatory comments directed towards other posters. He has done so to me twice, and one post he made was removed by the Mods. I for one have made a point about not attacking the poster of comments, and only the post, so I see no reason why my previous questions were not answered, as they were genuine and not idiotic or frivilous. I would also add, that just because someone is not as articulate as T runner or donegalfella is does not make them any less entitled to their opinion on this matter.

I personally find that T runner was fighting a losing battle in the politics forum and simply took his discussion over here for some reason. I have my thoughts on why this was done, but i will not say them as I do not want to misrepresent T runner.

T runner will give information to make a point and ask questions to other posters, yet he will not answer questions that have been put to him. Why is this?
If you believe that you are right in what you are saying, and PI does have a genuine reason for being granted asylum surely there is nothing to hide, and no reason why you should not answer any question that is put to you? Failure to answer a question will do nothing except take away credibility from your arguement, which will only add fuel to the fire for the opposition.

Now T runner, can you answer the questions I have asked above please?

T runner

elshambo wrote: »

Such terrible attempts at avoiding an easy question, its yourself your tying up with these loops and tangents your throwing, no one else

I NEVER SAID HER CASE WAS DODGY

I SAID:

your not even reading sentences, your scanning for things to attack, btw its
your posts as much as anything that make me think she is lying :eek:



The champion speak for the vast majority?
You would even get laughed at in their offices if you said that to THEM!


Highly scientific poll id say, id imagine it contained 100's of questions expensively put together to get to peoples real feelings!?:o

Everytime you try spin you hurt YOUR case
Attacking everyposter as if they are the same hurts YOUR case
Assuming your smarter than those your dealing with hurts YOUR case
Assuming everyone who asks a question/ makes a point is wrong/racist/ive seen God and the likes mention by her supporters, HURTS YOUR case!

BTW, just for you, im saying, as Ive been left with no other option, taking into account the trials and her defence's refusal to answer simple questions without going on the attack

HER CASE IS looking a bit DODGY!!!!
good work on turning members of the far left against you!:o:eek:

No offence, but I dont agree with most of that and Im not going to reply to any of it. Your political opinions shouldnt come into this, mine certainly dont.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

In this thread on the Sligo forum the fact that a majority of Sligo people seem to want her to stay is extremely relevant.

You tell me. Did the Izevbekhais or their doctor file a police report after their first-born daughter allegedly died after undergoing FGM in 1994? Did they file a police report after their in-laws allegedly tried to kidnap their other daughters in 2004?

I doubt it. Why would they? The Nigerian police only interest in the case was to threaten and silence the Izenbekhais doctor after he spoke to an Irish journalist.

And are you really trying to say that with millions of FGM complainants a year allegedly knocking down the doors of police stations and courthouses, the judiciary has not prosecuted one offender?

Yes, thats a fact. An FGM case has never been prosecuted in Nigeria. There are no state protections there on the ground. The Irish courts insist that there are. That suits Official Nigeria and Official Ireland but doesnt suit people who have tortured and sometimes died from FGM in Nigeria and it doesnt seem to suit the majority of people in Sligo who dont want those children put in harms way.

Sorry, but this is a bit like blaming Laura Bush and Cherie Blair for the political decisions of their husbands.

But if Laura Bush started figureheading some campaign for childrens rights in Iraq how seriously would people take her?

If you look at the data, you'll see that Nigeria was ranked as less corrupt after his presidency than it was before it.

I dont understand: It was ranked 132nd worst in 2003 and 142nd worst in 2006.

I don't think there's any rule that says one can't post in the Sligo forum if one isn't from Sligo.

Ofcourse not, but you asked why the posters from the politics forum were now posting here. Im posting here because being from Sligo I have an interest and not just politically in this topic. I cant speak for other posters who have moved here with no local interest only a polictical one.

That's a rather disingenuous claim. You have freely been cutting and pasting into this thread material that you have already posted in the Politics forum.

Usually in answer to politics forumites (Maybe paranoid, but they seem to be following me around.)

The Izevbekhai asylum story is a matter of national—indeed, international—interest. It should be treated as such.

As is every thread on the politics forum, I would hope.

The fact that Izevbekhai is housed in Sligo is a relatively minor detail

It is hardly a minor detail to people on the Sligo forum is it?

It is ultimately up to the moderators in this forum to decide what does and does not belong here.

And I believe the moderator has very politely done so.

However, I am of the personal opinion that you and blackiebest moved over to a quiet regional sub-forum because people were asking you too many questions in the main Politics forum that you couldn't answer.

If you must know the debate on the politics forum had degenerated and I found myself having to deal with condescending and insulting posts. I have complained about these.
EF and Aleksmart even said as much around the time of my leaving that thread.

After this reply I will try to keep my posts on this topic more focused on how this issue affects Sligo.

To answer your point: Even if it were remotely feasible—which it isn't—for a tiny indebted nation of 4.2 million people to "force" the continent of Africa to address its many problems,

(We are talking about one country, Nigeria, not all Africa) We could threaten to stop sending Nigerian officials pocket money as per our relocation agreement with Nigeria. This is money that is meant to go to protecting returnees and is supposed to be for the likes of Pamela and her daughters should they be forced back there. The money ends up in corrupt officials pockets.

Granting asylum for these 3 along with an insistence on state protections being enforced will embarass Nigeria. We can also insist that no more money wil be given for relocation unless there is proof of protecting children from FGM and subsequently of helping returnees when it is safe to do so.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

elshambo

T runner wrote: »

No offence, but I dont agree with most of that and Im not going to reply to any of it. Your political opinions shouldnt come into this, mine certainly dont.

Sur what reply could you give apart from
oops caught me

OR

ooh, i see

OR

:oYa you caught me putting words in your mouth to try and discredit your post:o


My political opnions do not come into it in any shape or form
However if you cannot see why i mentioned them, I pity the Woman you are trying to defend!

Your pulling the oldest poltical trick in the book of avoiding questions, going in tangents and when you think the question has been pushed to one side telling the person you wont deal with them anymore and hoping they leave

That trick doesnt work in written forums

elshambo wrote: »

Why did she not stay in Britain with her visa?

this thread has become pointless, which is probably what you wanted!?

enjoy your tangents and tricks!

T runner

[QUOTE=Big_Mac;5902282
If you feel that way, then why not start a poll here to see what the results are? I for one would be glad to see this.

Survey the right people, and you can get whatever response you want. I wasn't asked in this survey, and I am from sligo.[/QUOTE]

A survey does not ask every single person in the population group. Im not being derogatory to you Im explaining why you werent asked.


I will attest to this. I will also add that I have found that on more than one occasion that T runner will engage in double standards. T runner has been condescending on occasion, and also said in a previous post that he will not reply to someone here any further, in fact he doesn't reply to me. It appears that he won't engage someone that has made a smart comment about his character, yet when questions are put two him, he engages in smart derogatory comments directed towards other posters. He has done so to me twice, and one post he made was removed by the Mods. I for one have made a point about not attacking the poster of comments, and only the post, so I see no reason why my previous questions were not answered, as they were genuine and not idiotic or frivilous. I would also add, that just because someone is not as articulate as T runner or donegalfella is does not make them any less entitled to their opinion on this matter.

I personally find that T runner was fighting a losing battle in the politics forum and simply took his discussion over here for some reason. I have my thoughts on why this was done, but i will not say them as I do not want to misrepresent T runner.

T runner will give information to make a point and ask questions to other posters, yet he will not answer questions that have been put to him. Why is this?
If you believe that you are right in what you are saying, and PI does have a genuine reason for being granted asylum surely there is nothing to hide, and no reason why you should not answer any question that is put to you? Failure to answer a question will do nothing except take away credibility from your arguement, which will only add fuel to the fire for the opposition.
[/QUOTE]

How can you say you dont attack the poster after all that?

donegalfella wrote: »

Really? I don't see a chorus of support for her case, even here in the Sligo forum.

There was an Official poll taken in the Sligo Champion the results of which indicated that most people wanted her to stay.

I don't think you can fairly portray yourself as the innocent victim of condescension and insults. You were adopting quite an attitude towards some other posters too, and you were picking up warnings from moderators about your abrasive tone.

I picked up a warning for saying that someone was being less than honest. The mod on Politics told me I wasnt allowed to say that even when if it was true.

Izevbekhai is widely perceived among the Irish public as an economic migrant with a trumped-up tale.

Thats your perception and certainly not the perception of most of the people in Sligo (or Ireland for that matter).

Her supporters can't make a reasonable case for why she should be allowed to stay—other than the fact that she's supposedly a nice woman who has nice children.

I think a lot of her supporters in Sligo would be worried about her daughters getting cut up when they return to Nigeria.

T runner

EF wrote: »

Well from info on the net Pamela is living in accommodation provided to asylum seekers ................... Spoiler added in case her in-laws are present. I haven't seen anything on the news or in the papers really about why the rest of those in this accommodation centre should stay.

From a parliamentary question there were 228 asylum seekers in this accommodation centre in November 2008.
http://www.jcfj.ie/pqs/images/stories/dail_tables/2008-nov27-99.pdf
Do the people of Sligo know these people, believe them and feel that they deserve asylum?
I also wonder will the legal profession be willing to represent all these 228 asylum seekers pro bono through the High Court all the way to the European Court of Human Rights?

You should not put anyone's address up on the internet like that.
There are real people (inc. two young girls) living at that address and bear in mind there are hate groups interested in this case.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

T runner, there's a distinction between "attacking" someone and making justifiable criticisms, such as Big Mac has done here. But you don't seem to be able to distinguish between a critical comment and an illegitimate personal attack. That is where you get yourself into trouble.

I have absolutely no problem distinguishing the two.

How "official" was this poll? Was it carried out by Gallup, perhaps?

Ofcourse if you dont like the results just discredit it. I notice your sarcastic tone. You see it as just a redneck newspaper not capable of carrying out a proper poll, eh?
More "official" than your poll though!

Are there any examples of someone who went through FGM after being returned to Nigeria as a failed asylum seeker?

I cant give you a name of someone who has (or a female who hasn't for that matter) if thats what you want. Given that a certain proportion of returnees would be females who havent yet undergone FGM and they are returning to a country with a high incidence of FGM and no state protections I would say quite a high percentage. The Izenbekhai children fall into this high risk category. They will face FGM if returned from Sligo to Nigeria.

TequilaMockingBird

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

4 of the 20 Posters "against" you have named are actually regulars here.
Your poll failed.

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

It's obvious where she's living. It's all over the Internet, and it's even featured in her own campaign videos.

Its not all over the internet and it is NOT in her campaign videos. Have you even bothered to check. The campaign video shows the inside of a bedroom and a railing near where the kids are playing. This is not evidence as to where she lives.

The fact that she's so blithe about disclosing her place of residence gives me just another reason to believe that she really doesn't have anything to fear.

How can you state as a fact that she is blithe about disclosing her place of residence when you clearly dont know if she is or not as you havent even checked?

We can argue about it all day here but there are real hate groups out there and there are real peolple involved here.

blackiebest

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Oi, Donegalfella, do not flatter yourself. Why do you not read the OP post (mine) note the date and tone, never throw me into a certain 'camp' you perceive. I started this thread before I ever knew a thread existed in the politics forum, if I havemoved anywhere it is from here to the politics forum. I have always, I think, treated your opinions with respect etc and would appreciate you doing the same.

I have not read back on the flurry of posts yet but will in due course and respond. I am not looking for a row with my views and absolutely respect some of those (with intelligence) who hold the opposite.

The newspaper reported on Wednesday that 67% of people surveyed supported Pamela being allowed to stay, I happened to be the one to highlight that. I am entitled to my opinion as much as the drunk driver 'Seanybiker' is to his or anyone else to theirs. I find it embarrassing that fellow citizens will enjoy Pamela or anyone else being thrown out of this country to face their personal horrors.

I suggest that the tone of this thread is lifted and a bit more respect is shown by everyone to all posters

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You seem to think that your poll holds more weight than the Sligo Champions.
(I think Ill go with the Champions)
TequilaMockingBird has already pointed out a rather serious flaw with the initial results of your poll. Any comment?

Sorry, but I think the above is purely speculative. Remember that the court has to find that there is an objective risk. Conjectural predictions about what might happen don't satisfy that test.

I dont think the high incidence of FGM in Nigeria is speculative or the fact that the State cant protect these children. However, youll probably get a more comprehensive answer to that question from someone on the politics forum.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

TequilaMockingBird

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well seeing as you asked so nicely...

"4 of the 20 Posters 'against' you have named are actually regulars here."

4 out of the 20 Sligo Forum Posters who would be against Pamela staying, according to your search, are not regular visitors to the Sligo Forum. As far as I am aware, none had posted here before this thread.

Clear, I hope.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Sure Donegalfella, make it up if it doesnt suit you! (see text in bold) I said that a majority of people in Sligo seem to favour her staying as evidenced by a poll in the Sligo Champion. You brought the Sligo Forum into it and even created your own poll. Please dont try and blame your "poll" on me.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Doesnt look like it!

My comment was mostly directed towards T runner, who was posting frequently about this subject in the Politics forum until he disappeared from there and started posting here.

i.e I meant the disrespect towards T runner.

You are mistaken again. If you read through the thread instead of misrepresenting me you would see that I have posted on this thread from near its start. I have given my reasons for leaving that thread(in politics). I think the tone that is creeping into some of the "send her home" peoples comments may help some appreciate why I did excuse myself from that particular "debate". (See below)

donegalfella wrote: »

TMB's comment was "4 of the 20 Posters 'against' you have named are actually regulars here." I quite honestly have no idea what he or she mean by this remark. If s/he or you could unscramble the syntax for me, I'd appreciate it.

I think your petulant reply was unwarranted. You gave Blackiebests plea for respect on this thread the "thumbs up" sign. Can we start actually being respectful in practice now?

tuppence

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I dont see why we dont do poll. Lets be fair this has been quite a heated debate and there may be many regulars to Sligo Forum who may not have felt comfortable to contribute. (in both camps)

TequilaMockingBird

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Oh bugger.

No, 4 out of the 20 are regulars, the other 16 are not. Therefore, 7 want them to stay, and 4 to go.

Apologies.

TequilaMockingBird

tuppence wrote: »

I dont see why we dont do poll. Lets be fair this has been quite a heated debate and there may be many regulars to Sligo Forum who may not have felt comfortable to contribute. (in both camps)

I think the people who found this forum, because of this topic, must feel very strongly about the issue to "follow" it here when it is being so comprehensively discussed in the Politics Forum.

Xiney

So, is this thread now only about the virtues of those posting in it? (Last dozen or so posts seem to say so)

If there's nothing else to say about the topic at hand then I guess this thread is done - it's getting derailed more and more often now and it's connections to the Sligo forum are now purely circumstantial. If you want to talk about Ms. Izevbekhai some more, I hear there's a thread on politics.