Electric cars make "fuel-free" power grid practical

probe

Internal combustion engines are inherently inefficient due to friction and pumping losses. After a century of evolution gasoline engines in cars are still typically only 21% efficient! Electric motors have no such limitations and are actually capable of 98% efficiency including electronic control losses! Why do we keep wasting our precious fuel on such an inefficient system? The answer is energy storage.

Gasoline, diesel and ethanol fuels are all amazingly compact ways deliver and store energy. Fuel has dominated our transportation sector because batteries are large, heavy and expensive compared to a simple gas tank. Classic lead-acid batteries, for example, need about 388 times as much volume to store energy as gasoline. Electric cars only need to carry about ¼ as much energy because of this efficiency advantage but that still means a lead-acid battery must be 388/4= 97 times larger than a gas tank. It's no wonder gasoline has dominated for a century. Gas tanks are cheap and gas used to be cheap, so why bother?

Lithium batteries have now evolved to a point where they are safe, quickly rechargeable and capable of outlasting a car. They still take up about ten times as much space as a gas tank, but the big remaining problem is cost. Mass production will eventually reduce cost significantly but for now the plug-in hybrid (PHEV) approach solves the problem nicely: Most cars are driven to work or on errands near home except for very occasional long road trips. By providing a gas engine and generator to extend range, a 20 or 40-mile battery capacity can efficiently handle almost all driving. The only time you buy gas is when you take a long trip.

PHEVs exist now only as Prius conversions. The 2008 bailout (energy) bill provides deductions of up to $10,000 that depend on the battery capacity. By late 2010 we will have a large selection of PHEV launches including the Chevy Volt. When the battery is exhausted, a PHEV acts just like a hybrid. The real payoff is during commutes and errands, when it is essentially a pure electric car. The Tesla roadster is the first lithium-powered pure electric car. It has 244-mile range and 0-60 time of 3.9 seconds. Fifty of these cars have been shipped to date and they have a large backlog in spite of the $109,000 price tag.

Tesla has done an excellent study of well-to-wheel efficiency comparing their pure electric to several other real high-efficiency cars. Their study shows that electric cars beat all other approaches even with our present inefficient, 50% coal-powered electrical grid! As bad as coal power is, the 4x efficiency advantage of electric motors makes electrics still cause less than half the CO2 emissions of any gasoline-powered car.

Assuming it is being powered by a modern combined-cycle natural gas power plant, the well-to-wheel efficiency of the Tesla electric is 3.56-times better than a Honda CNG running directly on compressed natural gas. It is also 3.25-times more efficient than a Honda FCX fuel cell car using hydrogen made from natural gas. It is more than twice as efficient as a Prius hybrid. Note that these ratios also apply to the amount of CO2 and other emissions released into the atmosphere. Less fuel means less pollution.

Since electric cars have zero emissions themselves all emissions come from the power plant where they are much more easily controlled. By using a mix of geothermal, wind and solar power the emissions of electric cars could ultimately be reduced right down to zero. The variability of wind and solar power normally limits their use to 20% or so of the total load. However, the large pool of storage batteries in electric cars plugged in for recharge could stabilize the grid amazingly.

The V2G (Vehicle to Grid) concept makes it possible for cars under charge to actually drive the grid when needed. V2G customers get a reduced rate because their charger actually supports the grid temporarily when there is a shortage of power. Charging only occurs when there is plenty of power available: at night or during a gust of wind that creates an excess of power. During a wind lull or when a cloud obscures the sun there may be a shortage, which can be filled in from the batteries. V2G systems are already being manufactured and are under system test in several locations.

Solar power is mostly produced around midday, yet peak usage is in the evening. Wind power builds in the afternoon and extends on into the evening well past the peak need. By defining the V2G charger logic properly, the grid will be stabilized automatically and variable renewable energy can be utilized to a much higher degree. The grid is designed to handle peak loads usually for air conditioning on hot afternoons. Since cars on charge can wait till power is available at night, no expansion of grid capacity will be needed to provide power for electric cars. An amazing bit of synergy, which makes me feel that this was meant to be: Quiet, clean, fuel-free cars — recharged by a fuel-free grid! A future I anticipate with delight.

Thomas R. Blakeslee is president of The Clearlight Foundation, a non-profit organization that invests in renewable energy and other socially useful companies and issues cash grants to individuals who are working effectively for change.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/reinsider/story?id=54046

.probe

Carawaystick

yeah, I'd well believe that peat power station electricity would be more efficient than the best dinojuice(petrol/diesel) powered internal combustion engine.


One thing I saw years ago (probably in a paper copy of Spectrum magazine from the IEEE) that limited the rage of electric cars was the requirement to heat the car in cold weather. the "waste" heat produced by internal combustion engines fixes this issue.
double glazing with high k glass and some heat recovery would reduce the heating requirement. but would it be enough?

I'd say more recent petrol engines are more than 21% efficient, the gap between the latest diesel and Petrol engines has been closed a fair amount in the last 5 or so years-
page 14 of this has mid 40% for Diesel engines - most of these mileage type test's I'd take with a large grain of salt though.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/ngm/may04/crc0304c.pdf page 14 I think


but having a large time varying demand for electricity would help create a demand for wind power at current of peak times when it's windy. And electric cars would remove NOx,CO,and all other fumes from the car exhaust, back to the power plant. which would probably be a greater benefit worldwide than the reduction of CO2 emmitted.

probe

Carawaystick wrote: »

One thing I saw years ago (probably in a paper copy of Spectrum magazine from the IEEE) that limited the rage of electric cars was the requirement to heat the car in cold weather. the "waste" heat produced by internal combustion engines fixes this issue.
double glazing with high k glass and some heat recovery would reduce the heating requirement. but would it be enough?

Air conditioning uses even more energy - I suppose the compressor can be run by car's electric "engine". Anyway Tesla does not seem to have a problem providing heat or air con in their battery powered car.

Carawaystick

not much point providing aircon or heating in an opentop car though....

Heroditas

Eamon Ryan is making some announcement next week regarding getting Ireland involved with "Project Better Place" apparently.

towel401

The batteries in those cars don't last very long. not in the tesla roaster.

after about 500 charge/discharge cycles it will be down to 80% range. it works out at something like 15 cents per km if you include the cost of replacing the ****ing battery.not something i would want to use for helping out the national grid

flywheels are probably better for storing energy this way. they contain only ordinary metal and can be recycled indefinitely. they are not very practical for cars but good for storing unused power from wind turbines and the like

probe

towel401 wrote: »

The batteries in those cars don't last very long. not in the tesla roaster.

after about 500 charge/discharge cycles it will be down to 80% range. it works out at something like 15 cents per km if you include the cost of replacing the ****ing battery.not something i would want to use for helping out the national grid

flywheels are probably better for storing energy this way. they contain only ordinary metal and can be recycled indefinitely. they are not very practical for cars but good for storing unused power from wind turbines and the like

The cost of the replacement battery you have to buy after n years of use/km driven dictates the cost per km today - it has nothing to do with the cost of the battery today. As technology progresses, these batteries will get cheaper and improve in performance. The battery replacement cost dictates your cost per km driven in the past.

If you rented a car from Hertz on a one-way rental, full of gasoline in an expensive gasoline country - say €2 per litre, and drove it to a country with gasoline selling at 20c per litre on the same tank fill, the gasoline cost of your journey would be the number of litres consumed x 20c per litre. The fact that it cost Hertz €2 per litre to tank it up in the country of rental would be irrelevant. Your replacement cost of 20c per litre would allow you to return it to Hertz with the tank full. They couldn't charge you a cent more for gas.

The converse would be true if you travelled in the reverse direction. Fortunately batteries are getting cheaper and improving in performance with time.

towel401

probe wrote: »

The cost of the replacement battery you have to buy after n years of use/km driven dictates the cost per km today - it has nothing to do with the cost of the battery today. As technology progresses, these batteries will get cheaper and improve in performance. The battery replacement cost dictates your cost per km driven in the past.

If you rented a car from Hertz on a one-way rental, full of gasoline in an expensive gasoline country - say €2 per litre, and drove it to a country with gasoline selling at 20c per litre on the same tank fill, the gasoline cost of your journey would be the number of litres consumed x 20c per litre. The fact that it cost Hertz €2 per litre to tank it up in the country of rental would be irrelevant. Your replacement cost of 20c per litre would allow you to return it to Hertz with the tank full. They couldn't charge you a cent more for gas.

The converse would be true if you travelled in the reverse direction. Fortunately batteries are getting cheaper and improving in performance with time.

lithium titanate maybe, but the ordinary consumer batteries from china they are using for the roaster are crap. it might also be hard to upgrade to a different battery technology on something like the roaster. each cell is individually monitored and the cooling system is highly proprietary. basically if tesla would rather you buy a new car they can just refuse to sell you a battery pack at a reasonable price.

there is only so much lithium ion to go around and most of it ends up being converted to stainless steel, not new batteries when its recycled. supercapacitors might be better - they're made out of more common materials and can be recycled into new capacitors as many times as you like

probe

towel401 wrote: »

lithium titanate maybe, but the ordinary consumer batteries from china they are using for the roaster are crap. it might also be hard to upgrade to a different battery technology on something like the roaster. each cell is individually monitored and the cooling system is highly proprietary. basically if tesla would rather you buy a new car they can just refuse to sell you a battery pack at a reasonable price.

there is only so much lithium ion to go around and most of it ends up being converted to stainless steel, not new batteries when its recycled. supercapacitors might be better - they're made out of more common materials and can be recycled into new capacitors as many times as you like

Roll on lithium titanate batteries as fast as possible. They charge quickly. The new tram system in Nice uses NiMH batteries to power the vehicles in environmentally sensitive areas like Massena, where there are no overhead power cables for visual/environmental reasons. When fuel cells or an alternative storage technology becomes a better option, they can pull out the old, and install the new power storage platform. The same can be done with electric cars or hybrids. It may require a software upgrade or a modified controller. Big deal.

That is one of the benefits of the electric motor. It doesn't care where the electricity comes from or how it was generated. It just does the job far more efficiently than the internal combustion engine, and is not fussy.

murphym7

Why is there even a discussion about the future of fab new bateries when the source of the electricity will still come from burning Oil, gas, peat etc....

If we all went electric the demand on electricity would increase which with the current electricity generating policies would mean a direct increase in fossile fuel consumption.

I'd listen to your points if a nuclear power station was on the way.

towel401

murphym7 wrote: »

Why is there even a discussion about the future of fab new bateries when the source of the electricity will still come from burning Oil, gas, peat etc....

If we all went electric the demand on electricity would increase which with the current electricity generating policies would mean a direct increase in fossile fuel consumption.

I'd listen to your points if a nuclear power station was on the way.

because the over all power usage is less for electric cars charged by coal powerstations than ordinary cars. and some of the electricity will come from wind farms, dams and the like

murphym7

towel401 wrote: »

because the over all power usage is less for electric cars charged by coal powerstations than ordinary cars. and some of the electricity will come from wind farms, dams and the like

The optimism surrounding renewable energy always amazes me. I would like to believe that these sources of energy could do the job but I keep being drawn towards nuclear.

There are 1.8 million cars currently in Ireland (not counting busses, trains, vans, motorbikes, tractors) if all the cars were plugged in at night there would be a significant draw on the national grid, wind power or no wind power. I don't want to sound too negative here but I can see no alternative to going towards nuclear.

probe

murphym7 wrote: »

The optimism surrounding renewable energy always amazes me. I would like to believe that these sources of energy could do the job but I keep being drawn towards nuclear.

There are 1.8 million cars currently in Ireland (not counting busses, trains, vans, motorbikes, tractors) if all the cars were plugged in at night there would be a significant draw on the national grid, wind power or no wind power. I don't want to sound too negative here but I can see no alternative to going towards nuclear.

Cars and green energy production are a natural fit.

There will be a transition, probably involving the plug in hybrid (PIH) (ie a battery powered vehicle with a (preferably) diesel engine to recharge the battery on long trips and to give people range confidence). Early PIHs will probably have a battery range of about 100 km - which should meet most peoples' daily needs - without recource to the diesel engine.

As battery technology improves or H2 becomes more viable, the need for the engine will vanish.

The gov.ie is currently sitting on applications for some 8GW of wind energy capacity. Today's maximum demand is about 4.5 GW (forecast at 4.8 GW). The country's record demand peaked at 4.8 GW. With a good wind, if IRL had 8 GW of wind capacity (aside from wave, tidal and other backups), it would have significant electricity export potential - which is turn would more than pay for the import of the required electricity during quiet periods.

When everybody has transitioned to the PIH, there will be a massive reduction in the oil import bill, as well as cleaner air in cities and less noise pollution. Ultimately IRL could become a net energy exporter - which would make a huge difference to the real wealth of the country. Every billion € spent on oil imports is money down the drain needlessly. Investments in green energy and HVDC interconnectors to other countries have a long shelf life.

The logic is inescapable. Ireland could be a Dubai where the "oil wells" never run dry - if it got its act into gear.

shaywest

what about the millions of tons of ore that has to be shifted and sifted(all done using conventional fossil fuelled machinery) to make one prius battery .
iv'e heard that the mine (i think it's in canada) has an exclusion zone for hundreds of miles around it its so dirty.
maybe someone could correct me on this

towel401

shaywest wrote: »

what about the millions of tons of ore that has to be shifted and sifted(all done using conventional fossil fuelled machinery) to make one prius battery .
iv'e heard that the mine (i think it's in canada) has an exclusion zone for hundreds of miles around it its so dirty.
maybe someone could correct me on this

current battery technology is crap but its steadily improving. ultracapacitors is where the **** is at, and will probably end up in future electric cars

derry

probe wrote: »

Internal combustion engines are inherently inefficient due to friction and pumping losses. After a century of evolution gasoline engines in cars are still typically only 21% efficient! Electric motors have no such limitations and are actually capable of 98% efficiency including electronic control losses! Why do we keep wasting our precious fuel on such an inefficient system? The answer is energy storage.

....snip....

.probe
[/I]

Its more like ~5 % efficient when you do the full cycle of oil extraction ,oil refinery operation,oil transport from field and to forecourts .

The average rule is you need to use 3 liters of oil to supply 6 liters of petrol or diesel into the car tank

The car engine is best case ~30% efficient . Then with air resistance rolling resitance and other frictions the car on a highway at 50MPH might return a ~15% efficient figure . Through in traffic and can go down to ~7% easy

So even best case we get a ~15% efficient figure that is ~15% efficient of the supplied oil which takes away another ~30% of that ~15% or about ~10% global effiency best case

So real world the average car is more like ~5% efficient when we factor in the global energy equasion


Electric cars when you run the total energy come is somewhere between ~15%
efficient if you use electricity taken at peak loads and closer to ~30% if you take off peak load electricity

So realisticaly if all cars were electric we would drive some ~4 cars for the same fuel
Or put more simply if all cars were ~30MPG then using electric cars the electric car solution would return ~120MPG equivalent

As cars are ~20% of our fuel demands changing to electric cars could reduce our total fuel demands down by some 15% from it present level and we would only need ~5% of the energy cake to drive all the cars

We would not require a nuclear power station to benifit from this just your run of the mill coal or gas or oil

Incentives to use night time charging instead of peak time could mean we don't even have to make any new power stations


The only issue stopping it working is to develop a suitable electric car solution

Lithium titanate batteries are very interesting as in fast charging some ~15 minuites or less and typicaly 2000 cycles A bit heavier than lithium polymer.The lithium polymer are more fragile maybe ~500 cycles with recharge times of ~30 minute

Both still cost a lot and take up a lot of space (but a lot less than lead acid)

Expect running costs of electric cars to be similar to petrol cars equivalents some ~E1 euro per mile when you factor in battery replacement costs .The mythical 15 cents is from replacing the smaller batteries in a two seater electric car but if we look a real 4 seater car the costs are similar in todays money.However as the price of electric batteries is falling and that cost will probably reduce .


The Tesla cars solutions for lithuim batteries were done by many companies before Tesla and most any electronic company knows how to produce the same results as Tesla cars so its no big deal

The supercapasitors that exist today look to be to very expensive but could be suitable as buffers storage to supply extra power for accelerting the car or rapid storage from braking regenertive requirements. In time they may replace batteries but that seems unlikely within the next twenty years.

Similar to above is the solutions for fly wheel as the bigger fly wheel are still very expensive and fragile .The smaller fly wheel might make good rapid charge recharge storage for acceleration and regenertive braking requirements

Other solutions such as compressed air or compressed CO2 which are to seen in France and Mexico and India
http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/66/air-car-ready-for-mass-production.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov4t1P9bdGw

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/08/08/air.car/index.html

Compresed air cars also refuel quickly and cheaply a few euros and have ranges of 100 to 200 miles sometimes more and are cheaper and more easy to do than electric solutions .They are cheaper than electric or internal combustion cars . Electricity requirements to compress air make it similar to electric car argument in costs and benifits . Compressed CO2 assumes your getting free waste CO2 from industry or some such case and if so then like compressed gas it will be similar.If however you have to pay large costs for the CO2 the case for CO2 isn't so good

Then there is the more simple case that Ireland simply uses the land marginal land to grow bio crops(so as not to impact food costs ) and fuel cars directly
In tie we could have a mixed solution where bio fuels supplied power for the electric power stations .Note that bio fuel electric power station efficient story drops from peak of ~80% efficient with gas to closer to 50% efficient with bio fuel.This drop in power from bio fuel electricity generation means the results of supplying bio fuel direct to fuel tank or through the power stations comes out very similar. Wind power solutions could change the equasion more in favour for electric cars solutions

Basically all the solutions exist it requires a commitment from the regime in power and they show an ability to know energy as crap dunces wouldn't know energy saving if it hit them over the head .The regime react to votes and if there is more votes to drive electric cars they will follow that trend.The oil giants are in no hurry to allow the regime to switch to something that isn't oil based and so will fight tooth and nail to stop those solutions


So teck solutions are all there but power and politics and economics wont allow it


Derry