Ireland losing faith in democracy?

aine-maire

Does anybody else feel that in view of our emphatic rejection of the Lisbon treaty, general outrage regarding the recent budget and the fact that support for Fianna Fáil and the Government is at an all-time low, that we as a nation are simply losing faith in democracy?

Anyone else becoming disillusioned by our Government and the EU's bullying bureaucracy?

tolosenc

EU's bullying beauraucracy?! What?!

Yes we need a new Government. The current one is a joke.

But the closest I came to losing faith is when people actually listened to people like Shinners and Libertas at the time of the Lisbon Treaty. That was a scary period in Irish politics, where people actually genuinely believed the EU was going to eat their children*.








*Source: Libertas. Probably in there somewhere.

Scofflaw

aine-maire wrote: »

Does anybody else feel that in view of our emphatic rejection of the Lisbon treaty, general outrage regarding the recent budget and the fact that support for Fianna Fáil and the Government is at an all-time low, that we as a nation are simply losing faith in democracy?

Anyone else becoming disillusioned by our Government and the EU's bullying bureaucracy?

By the government's lack of competence - well, sure, although it's not exactly been a big disillusionment, because I didn't have a very high opinion of them in the first place.

For the other - I think you're looking in the wrong place. The EU bureaucracy is what would get reformed by Lisbon. The people putting pressure on the Irish government are the elected governments of the other member states.

Sarkozy isn't an EU bureaucrat, nor are any of the other people regularly quoted as "bullying" us - they're other countries' heads of state, usually (as is Vaclav Klaus). We can hardly be surprised that the other governments in the EU, who are signatories to the Treaty, who negotiated the Treaty over the last 7 years, and who want the EU reforms that are in the Treaty, are somewhat impatient to get on with it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ChocolateSauce

I think if anything the Irish have too much faith in democracy; they don't want to realise its failings and its limits and, most importantly, when it should be limited.

R3al

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I think if anything the Irish have too much faith in democracy; they don't want to realise its failings and its limits and, most importantly, when it should be limited.

It is not a loss of faith in democracy it is a loss of faith in the current government, the only problem is that there appears to be no viable alternative

molloyjh

Can I answer this question with another question......when did we last actually have faith in democracy? Look at the numbers of people who don't bother voting in this country. Most don't vote because they see no point. Many people who do vote aren't particularly enamoured with the choices they have. I've never voted for a particular candidate or party, but more voted against, in a tactical way, the ones I felt would inevitably get in. I would argue that a sizable portion of the countries voters lost faith in democracy some time ago.

ChocolateSauce

molloyjh wrote: »

Can I answer this question with another question......when did we last actually have faith in democracy? Look at the numbers of people who don't bother voting in this country. Most don't vote because they see no point. Many people who do vote aren't particularly enamoured with the choices they have. I've never voted for a particular candidate or party, but more voted against, in a tactical way, the ones I felt would inevitably get in. I would argue that a sizable portion of the countries voters lost faith in democracy some time ago.

One aspect of democracy is choosing not to vote if there are no good choices. In the US, turnout is famously low, but no one can accuse the americans of not having faith in it.

molloyjh

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

One aspect of democracy is choosing not to vote if there are no good choices. In the US, turnout is famously low, but no one can accuse the americans of not having faith in it.

Why not? Just because the ones that do get involved make so much noise about it doesn't mean that the rest have the same faith. To me the "what's the point" argument signals at least a failure in the way in which democracy has been implemented or the direction it has gone, if not democracy itself. A new party could spring up tomorrow here but those who don't currently vote would be very, very difficult to get out. I know a good few people who vote because they believe it to be their duty but who don't think things would be any different regardless of who is there (i.e. FF or FG as there are no other parties big enough to go into Government alone or as the major partner). Surely that signals a major lack of faith in our system, whereby people feel that they can't change anything even if they want to.....

ChocolateSauce

molloyjh wrote: »

Why not? Just because the ones that do get involved make so much noise about it doesn't mean that the rest have the same faith. To me the "what's the point" argument signals at least a failure in the way in which democracy has been implemented or the direction it has gone, if not democracy itself. A new party could spring up tomorrow here but those who don't currently vote would be very, very difficult to get out. I know a good few people who vote because they believe it to be their duty but who don't think things would be any different regardless of who is there (i.e. FF or FG as there are no other parties big enough to go into Government alone or as the major partner). Surely that signals a major lack of faith in our system, whereby people feel that they can't change anything even if they want to.....

I feel like I have a moral duty to vote, in the present circumstances. I'd vote labour No.1 and greens No.2 (despite the fact I'm somewhat sceptical of green issues). If these parties did not exists, I would not vote. Many Americans do not vote because they don't want to be involved. Over there there government is less powerful than it is here and many feel that what the government does is none of their business.

Bobeagleburger

Losing faith in Democracy? Thats hardly a suprise when the country voted No to Lisbon only to find out there will more than likely be another vote. How democratic is that?

Scofflaw

rarnes1 wrote: »

Losing faith in Democracy? Thats hardly a suprise when the country voted No to Lisbon only to find out there will more than likely be another vote. How democratic is that?

Twice as democratic, surely - twice as many votes, after all. I'd like another go at the General Election, too, if it comes to it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

chops1990

Every decision got to do with Europe is made in Brussels more or less witout public consent. Thats why we dont trust europe anymore. Sure we have a commissioner and all, but t hats not enough. The public needs a voice.

Bobeagleburger

Scofflaw wrote: »

Twice as democratic, surely - twice as many votes, after all. I'd like another go at the General Election, too, if it comes to it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sure why not run the US election again too;)

tolosenc

chops1990 wrote: »

Sure we have a commissioner and all

Who wants this one? Scofflaw? Sink? OK, OK...

NO WE DON'T.

rarnes1 wrote: »

Sure why not run the US election again too;)

Yes please. Lots more of my country's media focusing on the internal affairs of a nation on another continent, allowing stuff here to slip beneath the radar. Sounds fantastic...

Scofflaw

chops1990 wrote: »

Every decision got to do with Europe is made in Brussels more or less witout public consent. Thats why we dont trust europe anymore. Sure we have a commissioner and all, but t hats not enough. The public needs a voice.

The Commission makes day to day decisions about the running of the EU. It drafts legislation, but cannot pass it. It is nominated by the national governments, but is tasked with working for the good of Europe, not of each Commissioner's home country. That this actually does happen is the reason why the member states are prepared to rotate Commissioners - the original rule of one per country (2 for the big states) was a product of mutual suspicion.

Your voice - the public's voice - in the EU is, first, an elected Minister of your government on the Council, second, your elected MEPs in the Parliament. The Council and the Parliament pass or reject legislation, and also initiate it by request to the Commission. The Commission is answerable to the Parliament, and can be dismissed by them, as happened to the Santer Commission in 1998.

On both the Council and the Commission you, as an Irish citizen, have far more voice than you would if you were a German citizen.

cordially,
Scofflaw

molloyjh

It's probably also worth pointing out Scofflaw that the Irish government didn't get our "consent" to do many of the things they have done over the years beyond getting elected, much the same way as the MEPs didn't get our "consent" either. Its pretty much the same set-up.

Scofflaw

molloyjh wrote: »

It's probably also worth pointing out Scofflaw that the Irish government didn't get our "consent" to do many of the things they have done over the years beyond getting elected, much the same way as the MEPs didn't get our "consent" either. Its pretty much the same set-up.

That will be because they're elected to make decisions, rather than being some kind of channel through which the will of the people is made manifest - as several posters appear to believe.

cordially,
Scofflaw

djpbarry

chops1990 wrote: »

Every decision got to do with Europe is made in Brussels more or less...

...by elected representatives.

ben bedlam

djpbarry wrote: »

...by elected representatives.

And what vast choice of elected representatives do we have in Ireland? Only the constant pathetic, grubby Fianna Fail and Fine Gael to ever lead our governments and attempt to tie us into the Euro machine

oscarBravo

ben bedlam wrote: »

And what vast choice of elected representatives do we have in Ireland? Only the constant pathetic, grubby Fianna Fail and Fine Gael to ever lead our governments and attempt to tie us into the Euro machine

That's why there are only Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael MEPs representing us in Europe.

molloyjh

ben bedlam wrote: »

And what vast choice of elected representatives do we have in Ireland? Only the constant pathetic, grubby Fianna Fail and Fine Gael to ever lead our governments and attempt to tie us into the Euro machine

So is it therefore fair to say your problem is with the Irish political landscape and not with anything relating to the EU? "The EU is grand, it's just that we don't have the politicians to help us make the most of it" is how I would read that statement. Should that then not mean that we should proceed with Lisbon and simultaneously work on sorting out our own in-house mess? I'm just following your reasoning to a logical conclusion...

thehighground

molloyjh wrote: »

So is it therefore fair to say your problem is with the Irish political landscape and not with anything relating to the EU? "The EU is grand, it's just that we don't have the politicians to help us make the most of it" is how I would read that statement. Should that then not mean that we should proceed with Lisbon and simultaneously work on sorting out our own in-house mess? I'm just following your reasoning to a logical conclusion...

Well, a lot of us just don't think of it as an 'in-house' mess - just our style of democracy. You may demand that we respect that for instance, Germany doesn't hold referenda because they don't trust their people to vote the correct way.

You are asking that the Irish electorate effectively declare we're not intelligent enough to vote the right way, and hand over control to those of who we don't trust to make the correct decisions for the good of Irish people

Unfortunately, we can only vote for those who put themselves forward for election. We're stuck with what we've got.

Now, it sounds like you want to talk us into cutting off our nose to spite our face.

oscarBravo

thehighground wrote: »

Unfortunately, we can only vote for those who put themselves forward for election.

...or run for election yourself, or encourage someone else to run, or join a political party and influence its choice of who runs...

We're stuck with what we've got.

Strikes me as a defeatist attitude.

thehighground

oscarBravo wrote: »

...or run for election yourself, or encourage someone else to run, or join a political party and influence its choice of who runs... Strikes me as a defeatist attitude.

Not everyone can be chiefs

Why is my attitude defeatist - because I don't want to join a political party? Sounds like the Chinese membership of the party system of Gov. would suit you.

oscarBravo

thehighground wrote: »

Why is my attitude defeatist - because I don't want to join a political party?

You said that we're stuck, implying that there's nothing we can do. Turns it it's not so much that you can't do anything, as can't be bothered to do anything. If not defeatist, it's certainly lazy.

Sounds like the Chinese membership of the party system of Gov. would suit you.

That's quite a stretch from what I said.

thehighground

oscarBravo wrote: »

You said that we're stuck, implying that there's nothing we can do. Turns it it's not so much that you can't do anything, as can't be bothered to do anything. If not defeatist, it's certainly lazy.

1. I don't want to be a politicians/get involved myself (which is what you suggested I do).

2. I'm not particularly inspired by any of the present politicians we have - my vote is more of a 'best of a bad bunch' vote (ie., I don't trust any of them that much).

3) In light of 1. & 2 above, it seems logical to me to not hand over complete control to people I just don't trust.

That's quite a stretch from what I said.

You were advocating that everyone who wants to have a say, should actually be involved in politics which is how the Communist Party system is in China. If you want to 'vote', get on in life etc. you need to become a member of the Communist Party.

Scofflaw

thehighground wrote: »

Well, a lot of us just don't think of it as an 'in-house' mess - just our style of democracy. You may demand that we respect that for instance, Germany doesn't hold referenda because they don't trust their people to vote the correct way.

What is "Germany" in that context? Germany is a democratic country, governed according to the will of the German people - so essentially the German people don't trust the German people with referendums.

Maybe they know themselves better than us?

cordially,
Scofflaw

molloyjh

thehighground wrote: »

Well, a lot of us just don't think of it as an 'in-house' mess - just our style of democracy. You may demand that we respect that for instance, Germany doesn't hold referenda because they don't trust their people to vote the correct way.

Who or what is Germany and who are "they"?

thehighground wrote: »

You are asking that the Irish electorate effectively declare we're not intelligent enough to vote the right way, and hand over control to those of who we don't trust to make the correct decisions for the good of Irish people

Now I hope that is an innocent misunderstanding and not a willful misrepresentation of what me (and many others) have written here over the last number of months - either way it is a statement that utterly ignores what me and the likes of OB and Scofflaw etc have said in multiple posts. Noone, read that again NOONE, said anything about Irish intelligence levels. We only spoke about levels of ignorance regarding a particular topic, which is not the same as a lack of intelligence. Look them up if you don't believe me.

And who are you to say who "we" as a collective do or don't trust?

thehighground wrote: »

Unfortunately, we can only vote for those who put themselves forward for election. We're stuck with what we've got.

thehighground wrote: »

1. I don't want to be a politicians/get involved myself (which is what you suggested I do).

2. I'm not particularly inspired by any of the present politicians we have - my vote is more of a 'best of a bad bunch' vote (ie., I don't trust any of them that much).

3) In light of 1. & 2 above, it seems logical to me to not hand over complete control to people I just don't trust.

So in summary you don't like it as it is and you don't want to do anything to change it and therefore you just want to sit there and apportion blame. The problem is that in a democracy like this one by using your very logic you're as much to blame as anyone for the current state of affairs. You have identified a problem, you have the opportunity and capacity to resolve it and yet you choose not to. Noone but yourself is stopping you from trying to make a difference. And if you feel like you can't make a difference and so can't be bothered for that reason well then that is the very definition of defeatism.

thehighground wrote: »

You were advocating that everyone who wants to have a say, should actually be involved in politics which is how the Communist Party system is in China. If you want to 'vote', get on in life etc. you need to become a member of the Communist Party.

Hang on, OB said that you can make a difference by joinin ga political party or starting a new one, aswell as by attempting to influence other people who are involved, and you've somehow drawn a comparison to a system whereby to be involved at all you must join a particular political party. Now is that not one of the worst comparisons you could have made given that there are no resemblences between what OB said and this?

thehighground

Scofflaw wrote: »

What is "Germany" in that context? Germany is a democratic country, governed according to the will of the German people - so essentially the German people don't trust the German people with referendums.

Maybe they know themselves better than us?

cordially,
Scofflaw

More likely the Allies (Marshall Aid) / US/World Bank waving cheque books didn't trust them.

Sounds familiar

Biro

Scofflaw wrote: »

Twice as democratic, surely - twice as many votes, after all. I'd like another go at the General Election, too, if it comes to it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

No, Scofflaw, it isn't. It's undemocratic to have your voice ignored.

molloyjh

Biro wrote: »

No, Scofflaw, it isn't. It's undemocratic to have your voice ignored.

The referendum asked us did we want to change our constitution. We said no. Our constitution has remained unchaned. We weren't ignored. You have just as much right to say No the next time as you did the last. So peddle the BS elsewhere.