Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

G17

JunkieW wrote: »

Isn't that some reflection on our sorry state though:

Dear God, what is happening. Are the people who 'run' our country so out of touch. It is simply astonishing, I'm dumbfounded.

These sort of comments would make any citizen in that area want to arm themselves when travelling through bandit country.
"Hey Margaret, it's Julie, will you ride shotgun tomorrow, I have to pop in to Tesco and collect some dry cleaning, oh and Jimmy got his first bullet proof jacket today with the primary school crest on it, it's sooo cute, gotta go now, George wants to go into town, there's a sale on RPGs".

Rew

Sit in the courts for a day and watch the judge, most of them are so far from reality that its no surprise we have such crime rates.

Sparks

JunkieW wrote: »

This from a judge. Jeebus wept, the Minister is stopping handgun licensing because the whole country from top to bottom is hostile territory.
Good grief :eek:

Even the part of me that wants to say "Well, it is Cork we're talking about here" can't quite get the laugh out

It wasn't me!

So far we've only had proposals, right? What is the likelihood that, this by and large having been seen for the sham it is, we won't see any actual legislation drafted, or if we do, it'll be a token shadow of the draconian proposal?

Sparks

It wasn't me! wrote: »

So far we've only had proposals, right?

An announcement of intent actually, there's been no proposed legislation yet that I've heard of, just the press release.

What is the likelihood that, this by and large having been seen for the sham it is, we won't see any actual legislation drafted, or if we do, it'll be a token shadow of the draconian proposal?

Depends on the level of support for sensible action I suppose. Which is rather where the grassroots would come into play. But they really need direction from the shooting bodies in the FCP (the FCP itself, I'm realising, is chaired by the DoJ, so the FCP itself can't really issue a call for grassroots support in this).

sfakiaman

This from a judge. Jeebus wept, the Minister is stopping handgun licensing because the whole country from top to bottom is hostile territory.

Good grief :eek:[/quote]

Sparks wrote: »

Even the part of me that wants to say "Well, it is Cork we're talking about here" can't quite get the laugh out

The road from Donegal to Cork runs near my home. All these years I thought the shots were just lads after duck

Think I'll lock the doors and windows and go back to bed.

dresden8

Sparks wrote: »

An announcement of intent actually, there's been no proposed legislation yet that I've heard of, just the press release.Depends on the level of support for sensible action I suppose. Which is rather where the grassroots would come into play. But they really need direction from the shooting bodies in the FCP (the FCP itself, I'm realising, is chaired by the DoJ, so the FCP itself can't really issue a call for grassroots support in this).

On the issue of consultation.

In work they announced they were putting a phone mast on the roof. Hang on, said the union, we have to be consulted about this.

In response management, to paraphrase, got everybody together in a room, said "We're putting a phone mast on the roof. Now **** off, you've been consulted".

I realise the fight has to be fought but I can't help but feel it will be turkeys invited to a panel to discuss the cultural and religious importance of Christmas.

Everybody else knows what's on the menu for lunch, no matter how much the turkey is hoping for lasagne.

Red Renard

dresden8 wrote: »

On the issue of consultation.

In work they announced they were putting a phone mast on the roof. Hang on, said the union, we have to be consulted about this.

In response management, to paraphrase, got everybody together in a room, said "We're putting a phone mast on the roof. Now **** off, you've been consulted".

I realise the fight has to be fought but I can't help but feel it will be turkeys invited to a panel to discuss the cultural and religious importance of Christmas.

Everybody else knows what's on the menu for lunch, no matter how much the turkey is hoping for lasagne.

White house turkey, the executive pardon by the power of the president
to save the life of the symbolic turkey.:o

Red Renard

Kimber

Looks like he is choking the turkey or is he choking the chicken;)

chem

Have been told FCP meeting with gov this monday.

I have emailed all local FF TDs inviting them to a NI range tomorrow. Relpys to date = 0

I wanted to show them how its run in NI seen as they used the troubles as part of the reason to ban pistols here. I will post picks tomorrow of what ive shot on the range. Guns our own elected government dont see fit for civil use

Rovi

As posted in the other thread, and it applies equally here:


Right folks, can we now draw a line under the name calling and similar childish behaviour?
We all know that feelings are running high and we all feel victimised and put upon, but there's no need to descend to the level of the playground.

By all means criticise the proponents and supporters of this proposed legislation and most certainly refute their FUD-mongering with well reasoned arguments and cold, hard statistics and facts, but please, let's not demean ourselves by resorting to petty name calling.
By definition, we're law abiding respectable people (we wouldn't have been granted Firearm Certificates if we were otherwise), let's behave as such.

I see some posters have had second thoughts on what they wrote and have deleted or edited their posts, thanks to them for that.

Any further posts in this vein will be deleted, and persistent offenders will be looking at infractions or bans.

Ronin63

Hi All,
I`m New to the Forum, But as The owner of a .308 Rifle as well as a Glock 17, Yes a glock, and i`m not a scumbag who goes around killing people, I`m extremely worried about the future of my chosen sport, with all the talk of banning all pistols in the country, it seems to me that shooters as a whole should stand together no matter what your discipline and fight for our sport, a lot of Politicians of late have been picking on the easy Target, that of liscenced Firearms instead of putting their efforts into shutting down the real problem Unliscenced Weapons, Yes i know you all already know this,But surely it`s time to come together and let them know that we who elected them or who they will be coming to for votes have a Voice, we need to get primetime coverage to counteract the bad press our firearms are receiving from people like Ms Mitchell, I have neither the Knoweledge or experience in our sport to do anything except send letters of disaproval to poloticians, but i Have the Email adress of one of Matt Coopers rechearch assistants, it might be good for us to see if he would run a feature on our sport and the un informed views that Politico`s are airing to the Public on primetime Television,

meathshooter

The judge said at Donegal District Court: "It is an extremely dangerous weapon. Gangsters and criminals would give their right arm to have one of them."

I think to date five handguns have been stolen from licenced holders( I could be wrong)
all handguns used in crime are imported with drugs,which the politicions cant seem to stop and dont seem to know where to start,this is only a political smokescreen, and as proved in england that there ban has done NOTHINGto stop gun crime.

Red Renard

meathshooter wrote: »

The judge said at Donegal District Court: "It is an extremely dangerous weapon. Gangsters and criminals would give their right arm to have one of them."

I think to date five handguns have been stolen from licenced holders( I could be wrong)
all handguns used in crime are imported with drugs,which the politicions cant seem to stop and dont seem to know where to start,this is only a political smokescreen, and as proved in england that there ban has done NOTHINGto stop gun crime.

Judges are part responsible for the revolving door that allows the type
of threat the judge in Donegal claims the competition pistol shooter is under.If by traveling around this country he is vulnerable to attack
why and what is the solution to this.:rolleyes:

Spoke with to Garda who target shoots, he put it all down to unfortunate bad timing, had the FCP rapped up last year, pistols would have had more conditions attached but nothing to the extent of imposing a ban on any new licenses.

Sikamick

meathshooter wrote: »

Politicians cant seem to stop and dont seem to know where to start,this is only a political smokescreen, and as proved in england that there ban has done NOTHINGto stop gun crime.

_________________________________________________________________

Well Said meathshooter, and taking them in between 1972 to 2004 here in Southern Ireland did not stop crime and murders, any pistols used here for gun crime were not licensed during this period of time.

Also remember the Legitimate Target Pistol Shooter in NI never lost their Firearms Licenses for pistols and rightly so.

Sikamick

Sparks

Red Renard wrote: »

Spoke with to Garda who target shoots, he put it all down to unfortunate bad timing, had the FCP rapped up last year, pistols would have had more conditions attached but nothing to the extent of imposing a ban on any new licenses.

Frankly, I think if the FCP had wrapped up last year, you'd now have an empty gunsafe and the letter notifying you of the TCO asking for your pistol right now. There's a lot of folks saying the FCP's done nothing, who honestly don't have a clue what the FCP has done.

meathshooter

I belive that we would have been worst off today ,only for the work that the fcp have done I know one or two on it and you couldnt get much better to have on our side,but are we to bow to ahandfull of thugs by the commissionors own admissions,whos running the country????

thehair

Sparks wrote: »

Of course, not all good news. From the Irish Times:

is the judge telling all and everbody what is going to happand if so how can he get away with saying that:eek: steve

Keith186

Great news. No need for deadly weapons in this country.

I'm not saying that people who are licensed to use them end up shooting someone but they often fall into the wrong hands and are usually stolen from people's houses to use in crime.

Also I know a few people with legal guns, most of them are grand but there is one or two scumbags who got shotguns and I wouldn't put it past them using it on someone in a drunken argument.

Rovi

Keith186 wrote: »

Great news. No need for deadly weapons in this country.

...and no sports shooter would disagree. Firearms, baseball bats, knives, fists & boots, etc, etc, only become 'deadly weapons' when wielded by people of ill intent.

Keith186 wrote: »

I'm not saying that people who are licensed to use them end up shooting someone but they often fall into the wrong hands and are usually stolen from people's houses to use in crime.

Please read some more of this thread and this forum in general to become educated on this subject.

Keith186 wrote: »

Also I know a few people with legal guns, most of them are grand but there is one or two scumbags who got shotguns and I wouldn't put it past them using it on someone in a drunken argument.

These people have been deemed safe and responsible by their local Garda Superintendent; if however, you have reason to believe that they are otherwise, it's your civic duty to make your concerns known to the Gardai.

IRLConor

Keith186 wrote: »

Great news. No need for deadly weapons in this country.

There's no need for a lot of deadly items in this country but we don't ban them. Why pick on handguns?

Keith186 wrote: »

I'm not saying that people who are licensed to use them end up shooting someone but they often fall into the wrong hands and are usually stolen from people's houses to use in crime.

Well, most stolen firearms are not handguns, they're shotguns and rifles neither of which are getting banned. If you wanted to remove the threat of stolen firearms ending up in criminal hands you'd ban all firearms. Of course that would be impractical and a vote loser.

And, as Sparks has mentioned before, there was one shipment of illegal firearms which was seized by the Gardai which had more handguns in it than all the legally held ones in the country at the time.

Ultimately, if there is a change in criminal use of firearms due to this ban it will not be statistically significant.

Keith186 wrote: »

Also I know a few people with legal guns, most of them are grand but there is one or two scumbags who got shotguns and I wouldn't put it past them using it on someone in a drunken argument.

Either they're scumbags who are a danger to the community (and hence you should report your concerns to the local Gardai) or they're decent people with no intention of hurting people who should be given the benefit of the doubt. If they are as dangerous as you think you should have enough proof to have their firearms taken from them. If not, you shouldn't accuse them.

meathshooter

Keith186 wrote: »

Great news. No need for deadly weapons in this country.

I'm not saying that people who are licensed to use them end up shooting someone but they often fall into the wrong hands and are usually stolen from people's houses to use in crime.

Also I know a few people with legal guns, most of them are grand but there is one or two scumbags who got shotguns and I wouldn't put it past them using it on someone in a drunken argument.

I dont class my firearms as weapons there are sporting firearms,does this mean the gardai will seize every motor car in the country as they could be classed as deadly weapons and more people are killed every year by them than firearms,pubs will they ban them drink could be argued as the cause of
of a lot of things

dos29

(This is a long post, please give it a chance!!)
I am not a civilian pistol shooter,I do shoot pistols with the army.
I dont own a pistol but had planned on it. I do know a few people who do own pistols. This was NOT something I saw coming. You live your life believing that the people in charge of the country must have SOME slightest bit of cop on to get there in the first place, but no, they have to prove ya wrong. This current train of thought is actually retarded. I do not take this phrase lightly, I mean it is retarded(slowed or delayed in development or progress), by the simple fact that the people making these VERY important decisions are only playing to the media, and what they think is the general public's easiest "get out clause". I am absolutely infuriated by whats happening, and I dont even OWN a pistol!
On a slightly milder note, I have done what I can so far. All I can do is send e-mail's, and influence everyone I know in any coming election, along with my own vote. My e-mail's have been VERY restrained, given how I feel on the matter(trust me, it contained nothing but FACT).
I am NOT joking when I say that my next vote will not just be affected, but well and truly decided, by anyone, be they FF, FG, Greens, Labour, Sinn Fein, even if some mythological party starts up just to cut this BS, if some party speaks with logical thought and ACTUAL research on this matter, they WILL get my vote!!
I really wish someone would make a decision on a course of action. I know this would be made a lot easier by a definate decision being made by the government on what they are ACTUALLY going to do, but seriously, are we gonna stand by while this happens?
I waited a day or two before doing anything, but I personally feel that we are better off at least trying to educate the people about to pass judgement on this, then trying to crib about it after. Also apparently, numbers in force made the license changes be re-thought(I wasn't personally civi shooting at that stage).
So.... my decision was.....
To write as well informed an e-mail as I could possibly produce, to as many politicians as might read it(I even included links to this thread, and the one in the political forum). No verbal assault, no personal criticism, just plain common sense. If nothing else, it might at least inform some il-informed politico on the realities of what exactly this will change in terms of crime- NOTHING!!!
My personal feelings are- the more people that do the same thing the better. It will NOT do any harm,(so long as they're civil!!), and at least we have at least TRIED to do something while we're stuck in limbo.
I do NOT take the credit for such a plan, a lot of people have already done just this, AND suggested it in this very thread, I am merely seeing the sense in what they were saying, and I've put that sense at the bottom of a very long post! Now you see what I meant at the top!
In my next post, I'll put the majority of what I sent in my e-mails. It might connect who I am to this forum, but no harm.
Lastly, fair play to everyone who posted reason here, and didn't turn it into a muck throwing competition.There's a lot of very knowledgeable and credible facts in here to shed light on something not a lot of people know about!
AND thanks to the Mod's, I know it took some work to keep it as clean as it is!

dos29

As promised...


Sir,



I am adding this line, after finishing writing, to plead that you read as much as possible of what I have written. It took some time,

(and ended up being longer than I had anticipated!), and I would be hugely grateful if it was given the time I think this matter warrents.



My name is *********. I am one of your constituents.

This is the first time I have written to any politician, so hopefully you will appreciate that what I'm writing about is something I feel strongly about. The matter I wish to refer to is that of the current proposed changes to firearms law. To be perfectly honest, I'm astounded at the mentality of how this situation is being approached.

To give you my background on this, I am a serving member of the Irish Defence Forces, serving in *******. I am very well trained in the use of firearms, both rifle and pistol.

I am also a keen shooter with civilian firearms, owning a rifle and a shotgun. I do not own a pistol, but I do know plenty of people who do, and had hoped to own one at some stage after doing a safety course on them with a civilian club. I only use my firearms for target shooting. The rifle for paper targets, and the shotgun for clay pigeon shooting.

I am therefore informed enough to know that Irish pistol shooting is one of the safest sports in the country, along with the other shooting disciplines. The safety precautions that are in practice, and strongly enforced, are the strictest and safest I have come across. By this I do not mean that Irish military standards are lax, more that the civilian world of shooting has taken what is needed to run the activity of shooting safely, and furthered it.

Civilians do not take the responsabilities of a firearm any way lightly. They treat them with utmost respect, and are well aware of the dangers involved with ALL firearms. Pistols are treated no differently. This analogy that is being drawn between gun crime in Ireland, and legally licensed pistols, would be laughable if it was not for the consequences of what is being suggested at the moment.

The simple facts are-

The supposedly dramatic increase in licensed pistols is not due to an upsurge in people trying to arm themselves, but is due to the fact that they were confiscated on a "temporary" order in 1972 which lasted 32 years! Finally being handed back in 2004, this brought the figures from 1500 pre 1972, to 0 quite dramatically. At the moment it is estimated that there are currently 1800 licensed pistols in Ireland. That is actually, per capita, a decrease. How many people would have taken up the sport in the intervening years?

The vast majority of licensed pistols in Ireland are either air powered or rimfire(.22 calibre). These are the Olympic discipline type of pistol. The minority of licensed pistols are full bore, which is the larger calibres. These also have they're place in a lot of international shooting competitions. Irish full bore pistol shooting is only just starting to flourish after such a long period of non existence. We have people doing VERY well at an international level. These pistols are used ONLY for competition shooting.

Contrary to seemingly popular belief, not all pistols licensed in Ireland are "dreaded Glock's". Glock is a manufacturer of pistols, and yes some(very few) are licensed in Ireland, but they are ONLY used for target/competition shooting. There are others which have the same capabilities and are used in the very same way.

The notion that another "Dunblane" type incident is an inevitablity, is simply not true, and is being used solely as a scare tactic for the uneducated. There are procedures already in place to prevent that, and that incident was partly due to a failing on the side of the powers that be. The criteria already in place are, you must have a secure storage facility which gets inspected by a designated member of the Gardai, you must have a monitered alarm on your home, you must only use the pistol at an authorised facility(range), you must be a member of an autorised facility(range), the Gardai must carry out a background check on you, including any health problems, which would of course include mental health.

If a comparison must be drawn with the current situation, you need only look across the water to England to see where this mentality of banning licensed pistols having an effect on gun crime, has failed miserably. There have been international study's which have shown that banning licensed pistols have no effect on gun crime. The figures were requested for how many legally held firearms in Ireland had been involved in a crime, and the response from the Gardai was, the results would be too small to justify the manpower involved in retrieving them! Thats firearms, of which there are over 200,000!

My personal belief is that it is quite possible that NO legally held pistols have been involved in any crime!

The majority of the public were not event aware that pistols had become legal againg in Ireland! Does that say enough about how removed the target shooting world is from gun crime, and how much it is NOT a matter for public concern?

What I am getting at is, it appears to be knee jerk reaction to a problem which has absolutely no possibility of being solved by the measures which seem to be on the way. In the process, a lot of people who have invested very heavily in a sport they love, will be losing everything. If there is a cap placed on the amount of people who can hold licenses, what new talent will enter the field? If any of the currently licensed pistols are banned, who will re-emburse for the pistols now illegal? What will happen to the clubs around the country which were built for pistol shooting and provide a livelihood to some?

The criminals and thugs of our country do not care about legal, licensed pistols. It is far too easy for them to acquire guns by other means, and they have a much better selection for what they wish to use them for than what is currently licensed in Ireland. If they were to use a licensed firearm, it is far too easy to track , and get caught with then one which is acquired by "other" means. I think I saw a figure of an estimate on illegal firearms in Ireland around the 200,000 mark. Which is the problem category? Legal or Illegal?

I hope I've pointed out as much as is possible, how wrong and needless it is to punish the innocent, upstanding people in this matter, who by having a license for any firearm have already prooved themselves to the Gardai, for the failings of the criminals of Ireland, who will not be affected in any slightest way by any decisions made in this matter.

A lot of people are seeing this current situation as a good example of idiotic policy from an idiotic government. I know I am not alone in thinking that my vote come any election, will be well and truly decided by how this fiasco plays out. Somebody could make a serious name for themselves by speaking up about this matter and using common sense.

To finish, I am including 3 links to an internet forum called www.boards.ie . The first 2, are from the shooting section, which has 2 topic's which have been started for discussion on this very matter. Obviously it is quite objective in its views, but there are a lot of points and facts which the public are not aware of on this issue.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055416847



http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055422137



The second link is to the politics forum, where it is viewed and discussed by people who are more objective by simply not being shooters(mostly). I personally feel that this is a good cross section of the general publics sentiments.



http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055422465



Lastly I would like to sincerely thank you, for taking the time to read, what I have taken the time to write.

I sincerely hope some sense can be seen with this siuation, because it honestly seems absurd to me.



Yours hopefully

This is what I thought was needed to be sent. I hope more decide to at least send something which portrays they're disapproval of whats happening. And if a course of action is decided on by the representatives, I will be more than willing to do my part.

DOS29

Jonty

Keith186 wrote: »

Also I know a few people with legal guns, most of them are grand but there is one or two scumbags who got shotguns and I wouldn't put it past them using it on someone in a drunken argument.

Keith, to label somebody a scumbag one would need proof that the person in question was of dubious character and not just a young lad in a tracksuit with a baseball cap. He might be a scumbag to you but to others he could be an upstanding citizen.

FowlerC

Keith186 wrote: »

I'm not saying that people who are licensed to use them end up shooting someone but they often fall into the wrong hands

Citation needed here. You seem to have information in this regard that the Gardaí do not.

and are usually stolen from people's houses to use in crime.

Again, citation needed. This is contrary to evidence others have produced.

Also I know a few people with legal guns, most of them are grand but there is one or two scumbags who got shotguns and I wouldn't put it past them using it on someone in a drunken argument.

Anecdotes prove nothing.

meathshooter

if they are so worried about legally held handguns why dont they ballistically test every gun that way they could trace it back to the gun if there was a crime

Bananaman

This is what I sent to the members of the Oireachtas a few days ago - I have received some answers, for which I am grateful.

There has been some markedly favorable comment - which gives me some hope.

Whereas I seriously doubt that there will be any outright support for the shooting sports - I do believe that an informed house will prevent the government from making a "snap" decision which has no merit.

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am contacting you with reference to the recent attempts, by both the Government and the Media to criminalise the Target shooting community in Ireland.

There has been a dedicated campaign to associate the legally licensed pistol owners of Ireland with the increase in gun crime in Ireland.
This is patently false.

There has been an attempt to indicate to the wider public that the target pistol community in some way offer a threat to their safety.
This is absolutely not true.

This has all been leading to a call for a complete ban on the licensing of pistols which, in total, will have no other result bar the abolishing of a range of sports. This, in turn, will have a knock on effect on the local economy of the authorised target ranges where we practice our sports.

The target pistol shooting community are one of the few sections of Irish society (Members of An Garda Síochána being another group) who are required be to certified as being law abiding. They are duty bound to ensure that the firearms they are licensed to own to do not fall into the wrong hands and are required by the Gardaí to meet strict security requirements to ensure this.

As a licensed pistol owner I had to undergo rigorous vetting in order to achieve my license.

This involved;

o Proving membership of an authorised shooting range,
o Provision of proof of use (range attendance records, competition participation and results)
o A Garda security background check,
o Installing an alarm and safe in my residence.
o Home inspection by the local Garda Crime Prevention Officer.

Following my success in each of these requirements my license application was forwarded to the Superintendent of my district for his consideration.

When this license was issued I then had to apply to the Department of Justice in order to complete the purchase of the pistol for which the license had been issued.

These, I personally find, to be totally acceptable requirements in order to ensure the clean record of the target shooting community.

I have since attained a PSNI Visitors Permit, requiring me to again undergo stringent security checks, so that I can compete in Northern Ireland. More recently I have attained my European Firearms pass allowing me to compete abroad, which I have done on three separate occasions, to date.

Whereas the Ministers statement mentioned exemptions for Olympic sports, I wish to highlight the fact that the Olympic shooting disciplines comprise a very small percentage of the target sports in Ireland.

There have been questions in the Dáil on a number of occasions as to the number of legally held pistols which have been used in a crime. The Gardaí have not been able to indicate this, which would lead me to believe that there have been none.
The statistic always quoted is the total number of legally held firearms which have been used in a crime - this number will invariably be shotguns, licenses for which do not have such strict security requirements.

I, personally, believe that this is simply an attempt to be seen to "do something" in response to the murder of Mr. Shane Geoghan in Limerick recently. I feel it is deplorable to use the memory of this poor man to further an unrelated political agenda.

The Governments attention should be focused on the criminals who perpetrated this terrible crime. Gun crime in Ireland is not perpetrated by either legally held pistols nor licensed pistol holders. Removing these sports from the Irish landscape will have absolutely no effect on gun crime as there is absolutely no relationship.

I have invested considerable time, effort and expense in order to be allowed to compete in my chosen sports and feel that I am being victimised and prevented from progressing in this arena in order to fulfill a political agenda.

I would like to know what you, personally, and your parties views are on this topic and what, if indeed anything, you or your party plan to do to ensure that this travesty does not occur.

I can be contacted via email or telephone, but must decline from offering you my address due to the security arrangements I must adhere to.

Yours in Sport,

*********

jwshooter

Bananaman wrote: »

This is what I sent to the members of the Oireachtas a few days ago - I have received some answers, for which I am grateful.

There has been some markedly favorable comment - which gives me some hope.

Whereas I seriously doubt that there will be any outright support for the shooting sports - I do believe that an informed house will prevent the government from making a "snap" decision which has no merit.

i think dont worrie about it like every thing with this government it will never happen ,its just another smoke screen to take the heat off them .they will rant and rave Hoff and Puff eat lunch and move on to something else .this country is in some much shxt at the moment our pistols are the last of there problems