Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

Kimber

Poster from 1954.
God rest him my father ate, drank and slept FF.

Sorry Dad, Your son does not share your passion,

Link in case jpeg does not load,

http://www.fiannafail.ie/store.phpx?nav=item&item=27

John Griffin

I contacted my old neighbor Tom Hayes Fine Gael TD, I used to shoot pigeons, crows and foxes for him years ago.

I expressed my disgust at his party colleagues picking on legally held had guns owners and the smokescreen that the government were using to be seen to be combating gun crime.
So i got this email from him, I'm guessing some others probably got very similar letters. But I spoke to him on the phone and he was well clued in to what was happening and told me not to worry about it.

Dear John,

Thanks for getting in touch this week about the firearms issue, it was good to speak to you about it. There has been considerable discussion about handguns in eh last week arising from coverage and discussion of licensed firearms in Ireland, which came up in relation to increased numbers of licensed handguns in recent years.

I have received quite a bit of correspondence from people such as your self, who enjoy using licensed firearms in a controlled fashion, as a sporting hobby. I have discussed this with Fine Gael Spokesperson on this area, Charlie Flanagan, and we believe that any proposed changes to legislation should at all times be based on reliable research and best practice. Public safety must be the paramount guiding principle informing policy and legislation in respect of firearms. If the current legislative provisions in respect of firearms are creating a danger to public safety, then appropriate steps must be taken. Accordingly, if the Minister for Justice has evidence that the increased number of firearms licences in the country is posing a threat to public safety, then options such as restricting licences to sporting facilities that meet approved criteria should be considered.

However, Fine Gael is extremely concerned that the Minister is focusing on legally held firearms to shift attention away from the far more serious problem caused by illegal firearms in the State. It is common knowledge that criminal gangs have easy access to dangerous firearms and there is evidence that they travel overseas to avail to top of the range training facilities. Fine Gael is urging the Minister for Justice to direct his attention in the first instance towards the serious matter of illegal firearms as part of a broader effort to tackle criminality in this country. As you point out in your letter, illegal firearms are an issue that can no longer be ignored, and using the idea of clamping down on sportsmen who legally have licenses for firearms is entirely separate to gang violence and issues like that.

Thank you again for getting in touch, as I am glad to have the chance to clarify our policy on this and I wish you all the best. Feel free to contact me on any other issues that you have concerns about.

Kind Regards,
Tom Hayes

T.D. for Tipperary South

Kimber

Outstanding letter,
I know this man also.

Super stuff Mr. Griffin,
First Class,

Jonty

Fair play to you John Griffin

Kimber

Outstanding letter,
I know this man also.

Super stuff Mr. Griffin,
First Class,

Jacobo

Has anyone talked to their FAO recently? If this is to be implemented, I guess that they will have received orders by now...

Heckler

This idea of criminals going to Eastern Europe to learn how to shoot is a joke. The people in EE take in stag and such minded people who have never fired a gun and let them loose with an Ak47. To equate this with any kind of "training" is a fallacy.

To hear the news reports "murder gangs learning the trade at Eastern European "killing fields" is just beyond stupidity. The irish media need to cop themselves on.

Manic Moran

In fairness, I wouldn't put it past someone in Eastern Europe to set up an organisation like FrontSight in the US, which is focused on practical shooting, not fun-shoots.

NTM

Sparks

Sunday Business Post:

Aiming at the wrong target
Sunday, November 23, 2008
I read John Burke’s article (16/11/ 08) with some alarm. It stated that gardaí were powerless to impose restrictions on the licensing of handguns, but this is not true.

No person - not the President, the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice, the Garda Commissioner, nor any of the courts - can direct a Garda superintendent to grant or refuse a licence. The decision is his alone, and he is bound by law to refuse any such application if he feels it would represent a threat to public safety or to the peace.

A superintendent cannot, for example, refuse a licence because it was applied for on a Tuesday, but he can refuse it on the grounds of public safety or on the grounds that the applicant has no secure storage for the firearm, or any one of a number of criteria which have been in the Firearms Act since the founding of the state.

The Garda Commissioner’s comment, that he is powerless to issue guidelines on licensing, is also factually incorrect. He has always had this power, and may issue guidelines at his discretion. What the commissioner cannot do is to order a superintendent to grant or refuse a licence.

Finally, in response to recent media scaremongering on legally-held firearms, I would point out that, since 1971, the number of pistols licensed in Ireland per capita has fallen by 20 per cent, and our firearms laws have been tightened three times, making ours the most restrictive laws in the EU.

National Target
Shooting Association

chem

I was at a pistol range yesterday in northern Ireland. Gerat place, and all the lads there were sorry, for what we are going trough at the min. I shot all types of pistol and revolver. Everyone there wanted me to have a go on there pride and joy. One man had a 10mm Colt. A joy to shoot. Hand loaded rounds and shot like silk. I asked him where he bought it. He told me he had it since the 80s. Also shot a .44 mag revolver. Oh did she kick!

I talked to everyone there and asked them how many licenced pistols were in NI. I was told about 105,000 and 10,000 of them were issued on consealed carry permits!!

Everyone there had several licenced pistols and were having FUN DAY OUT on the range. Everyone friendly. Could see people teaching friends. Asking questions and giving tips to each other on how to improve shots.

So how is this activity seen as a danger to the public at large?

Northern Ireland never lost pistols or fullbore rifles because people in government realised licenced shooters were not the problem. If there are 105,000 licenced pistols in NI why did any terrorist group bother to import tons of arms during the troubles? Ill tell you why. It was easier to import illeagal AKs then try break into a house for one or two pistols that could be traced if ever used.

Would of put up pics of my day only forgot the camera

BornToKill

Possession of handguns rising sharply

Friday, November 21st, 2008 Copper Coast Passage East Shelbourne Tales of the Tellurians

by John O' Connor

Apparently, there are now more legally held handguns in this country than ever before and last week in this newspaper, Deputy John Deasy expressed alarm at the growing trend. The rapid liberalisation of the possession of handguns in this country was extremely worrying, he said.

There are 50 handgun licences in the Waterford/Kilkenny Garda Division and, according to official figures, there are more licensed handguns in Wexford than in any other garda division in the country. The town’s Garda station has issued 108 handgun licences to people in the local area and that figure is added to by the issuing of 33 handgun licences in Enniscorthy, 29 in Gorey and 21 in New Ross. Four years ago, only one such licence was issued in Wexford town.

In fact, the increase in handguns does seem to be a national trend because, for example, there are 75 people in the relatively small town of Athlone legally entitled to own and use handguns. A total of 65 handgun licences have been issued in Longford/Westmeath, 63 in Laois/Offaly and 34 in Roscommon/East Galway. God only knows how many there are in the Dublin, Cork and Limerick urban areas.

It should be stressed that the vast majority of licensed gun owners are extremely careful, sensible people who take the responsibility of owning a gun seriously and many use them for target-shooting only. But, personally speaking, I don’t like guns and I’ve never owned one. Basically, they are killing machines, weapons of destruction and I’ve always been nervous around them.

Sparks

From the Sunday Independent:

Minister's plan to ban handguns is shot down
By John O'Keeffe
Sunday November 23 2008

OFF TARGET: Precision pistol champ Michael Walls says the Government should be punishing criminals, not sports people

The Government's assertion that handguns could more than double in number to 4,000 by 2011 has been branded as "absolute garbage" and "scaremongering" by one of Ireland's leading pistol instructors and shooters, Declan Keogh.

Last week, Justice Minister Dermot Ahern outlined his proposals for a ban on licensing handguns -- which may be expanded to include all firearms held by civilians -- however, gun holders are now calling on the minister to rethink his proposals.

Under the plans, no new licences will be issued for handguns and existing licences will not be renewed unless applications fully meet the requirements of "a radically tightened licensing procedure where the safety of the community will be paramount", the minister said.

Mr Ahern has also publicly stated that there now exists a real possibility that an outright ban on all firearms may come into force if there is "a threat to public safety".

Declan Keogh regards Mr Ahern's analysis as deeply flawed. "From 1972 to 2004, not one licensed pistol was in circulation and it did not prevent the mayhem and murder perpetrated by the criminals," Keogh told the Sunday Independent.

"Pistols were also banned in Britain between 1997 and 1998, yet murder rates actually increased after the ban. This is unsurprising as civilian ownership of lawfully held firearms has no effect on crime rates."

A temporary banning order on handguns was imposed in the early 1970s due to the Troubles, but this was overturned by the High Court in 2004. Since this time, nearly 1,900 have been licensed in the State. The total number of firearms licences issued in the Republic, for all gun types, reached 233,934 in the 12-month period to July 31 last, equating to roughly one firearm for every 16 people in the country.

Michael Walls is the precision pistol competition co-ordinator for the NASRPC (National Association of Sporting Rifle and Pistol Clubs) in Ireland. Currently ranked 7th in the world for this type of shooting, he is clear that the Government is now aiming at the wrong target.

"Your average criminal or drug dealer who is involved in gun crime is not going to their local superintendent and applying for a licence for a gun for use in their 'business'," he told this newspaper.

"Much is made of the possibility of one of our guns being stolen and used in a crime, but no pistol has ever been stolen from licensed holders in Ireland to date. Should I not have a car in case someone steals it and knocks someone down?

"Pistols were banned in England about 11 years ago, and since then gun crime has gone through the roof. Time and effort would be better used to putting criminals behind bars than punishing sports people like myself."

Mr Ahern said last week his concern was that "unless strong and decisive action is taken, the number of handguns could grow exponentially and our firearms regime would equate to that of countries such as the US". But on current and projected statistics, this appears unlikely.

John O'Keeffe is Dean of Law, Dublin Business School

- John O'Keeffe

Dvs

BornToKill wrote: »

It should be stressed that the vast majority of licensed gun owners are extremely careful, sensible people who take the responsibility of owning a gun seriously and many use them for target-shooting only. But, personally speaking, I don’t like guns and I’ve never owned one. Basically, they are killing machines, weapons of destruction and I’ve always been nervous around them.

Well by his own admission he does not have an objective view on firearms, based on his self confessed fear of inanimate objects.

I can't help but wonder do cars also fill him with dread?

Given the fact that Garda statistics show 256 people killed on Irish roads from the 1st of January to the 21st of November 2008.

Dvs.

It wasn't me!

That's a good article Sparks. Hopefully it all goes away and we won't hear about it again.

Sparks

From the IPSA website:

Suspension of all IPSA activities
The IPSA has met with both Government representatives and representatives of the Firearms Consultative Panel (FCP). At both meetings the current policy of the DOJ in relation to Practical Shooting and options available to the IPSA in relation to the Dept. of Justice position were clearly explained. I have been in direct contact with the Executive Council of IPSC and I have set out our Governments position and policy re practical shooting. Under Article 11.1 of the IPSA Constitution I am Suspending all IPSA /IPSC Activities from 11.00 GMT 23 November 2008 until further notice. Please also note that it is my intention to invoke Article 8.19 with formal notice to follow. The Committee have scheduled further committee meetings this week and we will be issuing a full and detailed briefing document prior to the EGM which will take place within the next 14 Days.

kind regards,
John
RD IPSA

thehair

[QUOTE= no a good post at this time of bad news

thehair

Sparks wrote: »

From the IPSA website:

that is not good news:( steve

meathshooter

thehair wrote: »

that is not good news:( steve

ITS A CRYING SHAME,best wishes to john and the lads

Rew

Whats Article 8.19? What is "the current policy of the DOJ in relation to Practical Shooting"?

meathshooter

Rew wrote: »

Whats Article 8.19? What is "the current policy of the DOJ in relation to Practical Shooting"?

calling a egm

Red Renard

"which may be expanded to include all firearms held by civilians"


Not even the UK Labour party in 1997 election trying to out do the conservatives threatened to ban all civilian firearms. what are we doing
to cause this statement.

Understanding how the countryside is regulated makes it clear that such a notion if carried out would mean.

Complete devastation to farm crops from rampant out of control vermin.
Jump in spread of diseases, deer population already at a maximum high
futher multiplying to the extent that motorists will be daly reporting
the latest pileup caused by deer to AA road watch. ( Deer kills driver yet again)

If one of the defence forces or garda became threatening and lost it,would the result be that all their Weapon be taken in.

The other side of the coin. Read page 16 of the Sunday Independent.
Under Dealers are Subsidised with dole handouts.

The Garda estimate the dominant Limerick gang to be controlling an
enterprise generating about €48 million! This is just Limerick. How many
weapons does this scale of trading help with the illegal importation of weapons flooding into the ROI.

The fcp should be in a position to educate where the lack of real hard
core facts are missing.

cavan shooter

Red Renard wrote: »

"what are we doing
to cause this statement.QUOTE]

The answer is quite simple:

Last week the Gardai were asked some hard questions by the politicians (Dail Committee) and were backed into a corner. When the squeeze came on, Commissioner had a good whinge about not being able to control the Thugs...mmmmm.... because of the legally held firearms held by responsible and law abiding citizens being given by Superintendents, for sporting purposes...
And they are big guns (killing machines...) (or something to that effect, yep that was the statement that took the pressure off the fact that the Guards are loosing there fight against crime. That the Crims are more organised and know the law better than the Guards

The Media band wagon leaped into action, Deasy came out and the feeding frenzy began.

We heard nothing of the issues in Limerick, Thugs walking the street (Gardai hands tied), Drugs readily available, or budgets being cut/ overtime slashed, Instead we hear for the last week about pistols. We dont have a strong opposition in this country to tackle the Governemnt on it or the Gardais comments, so we are stuck with it. (and very few politicians would be brave enough to do so)

You also have a tabloid press that love this stuff because people buy papers and watch prime time and swallow crap

When the Governemnt is up shilt creek witout a paddle, it will throw up smoke screens like mad and unfortunately we are caught in the middle, because we are an easy Target.

What is needed now is rational representation, and I hope to hear it soon

packas

meathshooter wrote: »

article 8.19john is resigninig
8.19
The President must resign from the position of Regional Director (if held) within ninety days of his election to the office of President.

here the link http://www.ipsc.org/ipsccon4.htm

Hi Meathshooter. I hope you don't mind if I correct you regarding your statement. John (IPSA RD) is referring to Article 8.19 of the IPSA constitution & not of the IPSC constitution. It refers to calling an EGM. The RD is not resigning.

regards,
Pat.

meathshooter

packas wrote: »

Hi Meathshooter. I hope you don't mind if I correct you regarding your statement. John (IPSA RD) is referring to Article 8.19 of the IPSA constitution & not of the IPSC constitution. It refers to calling an EGM. The RD is not resigning.

regards,
Pat.

sorry pat took it up wrong was looking at the ipsc constitution which I taught was the same as ipsa thanks for putting me straight where can you view the ipsa consititution I cant find it on there ipsa website

Rovi

Sparks wrote: »

From the Sunday Independent:

Fair play to Declan and Michael for getting their points over in a major Sunday paper, well done to both.

BoxOfTruth

Hi Guys and Girls. I'm a first time poster but long time shooter! I sent a polite e-mail to several TDs and senators over the weekend. Every reply I've had so far has been supportive of the position of the genunie sports handgun shooter. I've had this exact reply from a number of FG TDs. This appers to be their standard position. It seems generally positive!

"Thank you for your recent email.
Fine Gael believes that any proposed changes to legislation should at all times be based on reliable research and best practice.

Fine Gael believes that public safety must be the paramount guiding principle informing policy and legislation in respect of firearms. If the current legislative provisions in respect of firearms are creating a danger to public safety, then appropriate steps must be taken. Accordingly, if the Minister for Justice has evidence that the increased number of firearms licences in the country is posing a threat to public safety, then options such as restricting licences to sporting facilities that meet approved criteria should be considered.

Fine Gael is extremely concerned that the Minister is focusing on legally held firearms to shift attention away from the far more serious problem caused by illegal firearms in the State. It is common knowledge that criminal gangs have easy access to dangerous firearms and there is evidence that they travel overseas to avail to top of the range training facilities. Fine Gael is urging the Minister for Justice to direct his attention in the first instance towards the serious matter of illegal firearms as part of a broader effort to tackle criminality in this country. "

cavan shooter

In the news of the world yesterday, a little piece of an article accusing certain people of sending abusive e mails to Minister Deasy,I am not even going to repeat it, I dont have it now and tried to find it on the net, it was offensive to any law abiding shooter to say the least

ivanthehunter

How many people have been killed with legally own handguns in Ireland since 2004(or the issue of the first hand gun licence)??

How many were killed before 2004 by hand guns(gang related).
What type of handguns are being used (i can only guess that they're .22 pistols as some victims have been shot 5 and 6 times and they have lived?

How many hand guns have been recoreded as stolen since 2004.

How many gangsters have meet there end at the point of a swan off shot gun.

Are swan offs not as easy to hide as a pistol..

Sadistic information is the only way to flag up the inaccuracies of the knee jerk madness

Personally i have no interest in pistols.. but i enjoyed the freedom to choose for my self...............

Lemming

Red Renard wrote: »

"which may be expanded to include all firearms held by civilians"

Well there goes the Dail's annual paintball trip next year ...

I despair of a government that makes "easy" decisions instead of "the right" decisions. They'll then turn around, shrug their shoulders and say "shhhure we did x, y, z. What else could we possibly do?"

Slav

Fine Gael wrote: »

Fine Gael believes that public safety must be the paramount guiding principle informing policy and legislation in respect of firearms. If the current legislative provisions in respect of firearms are creating a danger to public safety, then appropriate steps must be taken. Accordingly, if the Minister for Justice has evidence that the increased number of firearms licences in the country is posing a threat to public safety, then options such as restricting licences to sporting facilities that meet approved criteria should be considered.

Poor Firearms Act. Work still in progress. It must be such a complicated stuff... "It's no use Ted, you'll never get it absolutely right."