Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

Ronan|Raven

I am a non shooter but have a few friends who are, one or two of them own pistols. This is an absolute joke. Talk about panic legislation and as always coming down hardest on the law abiding citizens. If they think this will make a damn bit of difference to gun deaths in this country they are more deluded than I thought. If someone wants a weapon for the purposes of criminality they can still easily get one.

It wasn't me!

tba wrote: »

Well concealment is the reason, I have no problem with it frankly. Rifles and shotguns are still legal.

Shotguns get sawn off down to pistol sizes without any real hassle, so that argument doesn't really hold water, to be honest.

The thing about rifles and shotguns is that you can't practise pistol disciplines with them, and why should people have to give up their popular international sport because some scumbag has a pistol? The figures demonstrate the fact that there is no connection between gun crime and licensed firearms, the availability or non-availability thereof.

nipplenuts wrote: »

As a non shooter;

Where do you practise with your pistols?

Is the problem people having their legit guns stolen for use by criminals?

Is 1700 Glocks not a lot for what's a fringe hobby?

If you have proper managed clubs could a compromise not be that the guns are not taken home?

Pistol training is done in approved and inspected ranges with trained range officers, safety precautions and personnel.

No, the number of firearms stolen is absolutely miniscule. I seem to recall a figure posted here of 115 in the past five years. Out of 234,000 or so, that's not even a drop in the ocean. There's also no data to suggest that these are then used in crimes. My own suspicion would be that the majority are opportune thefts and the firearms are quickly lost or destroyed afterwards.

The 1700 Glocks bit, as has been asserted, is completely false. There are about 1700 pistols in total, of which the majority are air or smallbore pistols. Very few will be Glocks, probably 5-10%.

The suggestion has been made before that people would store their pistols in their clubs, but the suggestion is pretty obviously ridiculous, when you outline that you then have perhaps dozens of pistols in one place, with weekend and some evening attendance, generally in the middle of nowehere. Such a measure is the single fastest and most surefire way to increase the number of thefts of firearms by those who do have an agenda.

Unless people have data to indicate that licensed firearms are contributing to gun-crime in Ireland, and pistols in particular, I find it extremely disingenuous to impose further sanctions and restrictions, and a complete ban is just a disgusting and pathetic way to make a scapegoat and to attempt to direct public ill-feeling against the most law-abiding group in society.

G17

Vegeta wrote: »

I know the NGBs must desperately be looking for clarification so lets see how they get on.

Yes please wait and see everyone.

For anyone who's reading this who hasn't an idea about sporting handgun shooting and can't understand what all the fuss is about.
This is like the people in Kilkenny waiting to hear if hurls are about to be banned.

Many of us are sick in the stomach waiting for news.

civdef

An important point to be borne in mind in relation to all this is that thousands of euros were spent by each indivdual shooter in meeting Garda security requirements before getting a licence in relation to safes, monitored alarms etc.
All of which seems to be now ignored as the risk of firearms being stolen for criminal use is being put forward as part of the justification for new restrictions.
This constitutes a significant finiancial grievance, in addition to the loss of a sport.

rrpc

+ 1 to Vegeta and CivDef

We need to wait for a definitive statement from the DoJ or the Minister. I have no faith in the media to properly report the news and the little snippets I heard of the Minister in the Dail last night did not involve the word ban. The word I heard was curtailment.

Having said that I didn't hear all he said so I don't want to raise false hopes.

So chill pills all round and wait for the facts to be revealed. Everything that could have been done has been done at this stage, and thanks to everyone who lent a hand or an email to the situation.

gunhappy_ie

i spent the last hour and a half posting a rely.... i the had to relog in and i couldnt .... lost everythin i wrote !!!

but another point... look at the uk ... they banned pistols... look at there knife crime go through the roof !

and do you think that they will stop at pistols..... i suspect anything militaty looking will eventally go .. this will also affect airsoft fire.. (whatever ya wanna call them)

Vegeta

rrpc wrote: »

I have no faith in the media to properly report the news

Really am amazed at this myself.

So chill pills all round and wait for the facts to be revealed.

Dr. rrpc prescribes

bigred

G17 wrote: »

Yes please wait and see everyone.

For anyone who's reading this who hasn't an idea about sporting handgun shooting and can't understand what all the fuss is about.
This is like the people in Kilkenny waiting to hear if hurls are about to be banned.

Many of us are sick in the stomach waiting for news.

The hurley I have at the front door is 1000 times more dangerous than my single shot air pistol - especially when the wife has it :rolleyes:

Kimber

Have our NGB's or our Firearms Legislative Panel made any statement anyone?

chem

Statement by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, in Debate
on Fine Gael Private Members’ Motion on Crime
Dáil, 18 November, 2008

The use of weapons by gang members is a matter of particular concern. I
fully support the comments which the Garda Commissioner made at the Public
Accounts Committee last week about licensed handguns, and, as he
acknowledged at the meeting, this is a matter which I have raised with him
on many occasions.

In particular, I have made clear since I became Minister for Justice,
Equality and Law Reform my concern at the number and type of handguns being
licensed.

That is why, at my direction, my Department and the Garda Síochána have
engaged in an urgent and intensive review of the firearms law.

That review is now in its final stages.

In addition, work is well under way on the preparation of a Criminal
Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill which, among other things, will
give effect to the proposals emerging from that review.

My bottom line is this:

I do not believe that as a matter of public policy we as a people can
countenance a proliferation of handguns. While I recognise that the vast
majority of handgun owners are responsible people, as Minister my concern
is the safety of the public, particularly at a time of concern about gun
crime.

I will make a detailed statement in the near future on this matter.

Tonight I will simply record the fact that from the early seventies, in the
light of the Troubles, until a few years ago all handguns were banned in
this jurisdiction.

Following a series of judicial decisions that is no longer the case. There
was no public policy decision to bring about this situation.

It is the case that the Criminal Justice Act 2006 made a number of changes
strengthening our firearms code. One of the purposes of the Criminal
Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill will be to make a number of
technical changes which are necessary to ensure that some of those changes
can be brought into operation effectively.

But in the light of the situation which we face, I do not believe that
those measures on their own will be enough – I will be going further.

I am conscious of the remarks made by Mr Justice Charleton in a recent
judgement in a firearms case, and indeed remarks made by a number of
Deputies in the House, which reflect my concerns.

The increasing prevalence of handguns has not come about as a result of any
deliberate policy decision by the Government or this House. That situation
is clearly unsatisfactory, and I will be bringing forward effective
proposals to deal comprehensively with it.

There is simply no excuse for the type of gangland activities which we have
witnessed. Members of gangs bear complete personal responsibility for
their deeds.

It is no contradiction of that to point out that in the longer term we risk
condemning future generations if we do not face up to the deep seated
social problems which have beset parts of Limerick. It is in recognition
of that fact that my Department was instrumental in initiating and
supporting the Limerick Regeneration Project led by John Fitzgerald.

Indeed as recently as yesterday the Secretary General of my Department was
in Limerick making a presentation to the Board of the regeneration project
dealing with developments in relation to the services connected with or
under the aegis of my Department. We totally support that regeneration
process and the unprecedented increase in the number of Gardaí is just one
element of my Department’s response.

I do not stand before the House tonight to claim our criminal justice
system is perfect and needs no change. For my part, I pledge as Minister
to keep under constant and intensive review all aspects of the operation of
our criminal justice system and continue to bring forward whatever changes
are sensible and required. But it serves only to demoralise those in the
front line who have to face down the evil doers in our midst not to
recognise what is being achieved.

It is against that background that I commend the amendment to the House.

Sparks

Chem, that's just what he said in the Dail last night and it's been up on oireachtas.ie for a while. It's this bit in the middle we need to find:

I do not believe that as a matter of public policy we as a people can
countenance a proliferation of handguns. While I recognise that the vast
majority of handgun owners are responsible people, as Minister my concern
is the safety of the public, particularly at a time of concern about gun
crime.

I will make a detailed statement in the near future on this matter.

Kimber

Have our NGB's and our Firearms Legislative Panel made any statement anyone?

chem

Sparks wrote: »

Chem, that's just what he said in the Dail last night and it's been up on oireachtas.ie for a while. It's this bit in the middle we need to find:
[/B]

I know sparks. Just got that from DOJ press office and stuck it up to piece together all the snip bits flooting around.

Getting press statement later from DOJ on whats been reported today. Press office guy said it wont be a blanket ban on pistols

marlin vs

We will have to wait and see, and it wont be long now, I don't have a handgun (my choice) but it should be my right to have one if I wanted, it's a disgrace to be putting gun enthusiast's (sportsmen and women) even in the same sentence as criminals, this shouldn't be taken lying down, we are respectable people and should be treated as such.

lancer326

could somebody please tell me how may people approx in the country have pistols? how many are we talking about?

Sparks

Not yet Kimber, but this only hit the wires last night at 0200.

It wasn't me!

lancer326 wrote: »

could somebody please tell me how may people approx in the country have pistols? how many are we talking about?

About 1700 pistols I think. Don't know how many people are involved, but there won't be many with multiple ones, so probably 1500+

tiny-nioclas

Exactly marlin, i dont have a pistol, but ive full intentions of getting one when the finances are right, if they start this bull again were gonna end up down the same road as hunters did with the no caliber over 22-250 nonsence again, its public hysteria and the media are loving it with their sensationalist ****e, its times like this when hunters and shooters need one good strong group representing us everywhere, we shouldnt have to compromise our sport/hobby to please the stupid elected politicians either, if there is so much crime with legally held pistols why are the bloody guards granting licences to the criminals then? :mad:

lancer326

so 1700 people are seeking to stop a democratically elected Dail from implementing a policy for the safety of the public? In the words of the minister...

"I do not believe that as a matter of public policy we as a people can
countenance a proliferation of handguns. While I recognise that the vast
majority of handgun owners are responsible people, as Minister my concern is the safety of the public, particularly at a time of concern about gun crime."

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue is all about glocks here. Is that not a gun designed for army/police/military? is it seriously being argued that a glock is designed to "TARGET SHOOT"?

Grizzly 45

Folks,
As this is a pretty stressful time for us all.[Been working the phones and the coffee machine here all AM].I have noticed a couple of new posters here or low count posters making pretty general enquiries about things handgun related.
Not casting asperation or implying on anyone of them,BUT I do find it odd that suddenly we have this happening just like right now???
And for stuff that can be found by simply reading posts from the last couple of weeks and days???? Or by simply googling matters pertaining the dreaded Glocks???
So ,if you are a Journalist,please SAY SO,and I am sure one of the Mods will gladly direct you to some proper PR people who will comment on this.:)

If you are an anti...or just looking for a scoop to fill colum space please F£$K off..We are in no mood today to entertain you.:mad:

Sparks

lancer326 wrote: »

could somebody please tell me how may people approx in the country have pistols? how many are we talking about?

About 1800 pistols in total, but of that, you've starter pistols and humane dispatch things that aren't really pistols as you'd think of them. Of the target shooting pistols, you'd see more people having more than one than you would with shotguns or rifles. At a rough guess, I'd say you had 1000 to 1200 people with pistols in the country today, and most of those would be air or .22 pistols shooters.

It wasn't me!

lancer326 wrote: »

so 1700 people are seeking to stop a democratically elected Dail from implementing a policy for the safety of the public?

No, they're trying to save their sport in the face of a smoke and mirrors policy seeking to criminalise law-abiding sporting shooters and deflect attention from governmental deficiencies.

In the words of the minister...

"I do not believe that as a matter of public policy we as a people can
countenance a proliferation of handguns. While I recognise that the vast
majority of handgun owners are responsible people, as Minister my concern is the safety of the public, particularly at a time of concern about gun crime."

What's the problem with handguns? Do you have the data nobody else does linking licensed pistols to gun-crime?

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue is all about glocks here. Is that not a gun designed for army/police/military? is it seriously being argued that a glock is designed to "TARGET SHOOT"?

What it's designed for and what its common civilian use is are two different things. What's the mystery about Glocks? Banning "Glock" pistols is like banning Kelloggs cornflakes and suggesting people have to eat Aldi-brand. It makes no sense.

You're suggesting that you know a Glock isn't "designed to target shoot". Where does your expertise come from?

ironsight

lancer326 wrote: »

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue is all about glocks here. Is that not a gun designed for army/police/military? is it seriously being argued that a glock is designed to "TARGET SHOOT"?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but is that not what thye first guns were for, the military, is the humble rimfire .22 with a moderator not used by certain forces here in Ireland as a target specific round?

G17

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Folks,
As this is a pretty stressful time for us all.We are in no mood today to entertain you.:mad:

Please mods, come down hard on flamers, as you see fit obviously.

A lot of us are having a bad day with this.

Sparks

lancer326 wrote: »

so 1700 people are seeking to stop a democratically elected Dail from implementing a policy for the safety of the public?

Nope. They're seeking for that policy to actually secure the safety of the public instead of merely targeting a law-abiding group of people, each of whom is personally certified by a Garda Superintendent (following background checks, access to personal medical records, home inspections, proficiency courses and so on) as being safe.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I have noticed a couple of new posters here or low count posters making pretty general enquiries about things handgun related.

Journalists are welcome here, as are low-count posters. Hell, bring in all the journalists you can, at least they'll get access to the actual raw data and statements rather than what we've seen from the Times and RTE of late.

People acting the muppet and trolling are, and have always been, unwelcome - but that does not mean that having opposing views gets you kicked out, it just means everyone has to be civil in here.

Kimber

Thanks for the relpy,

Cannot keep up with the replies,

Certanly worrying time ahead

Sparks

ironsight wrote: »

is the humble rimfire .22 with a moderator not used by certain forces here in Ireland as a target specific round?

No, it's not. Unless by "target" you mean rabbits. Or, you know, actual paper targets.

lancer326

i will never be uncivil. im just trying to understand the ins and outs of the whole issue. i AM NOT a journalist or anything else in the media. im simply a poor aul student doing a paper in college on constitutional law. the Charleton Judgment got me thinking about the whole issue of guns and the law, and the Govt's right to restrict something on a public safety point of view. that's all. sorry if i offended anybody. not my intention.

ironsight

Sparks wrote: »

No, it's not. Unless by "target" you mean rabbits. Or, you know, actual paper targets.

My error SPARKS, phrased very badly and I sppologise please delete or ammend !

Rovi

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I have noticed a couple of new posters here or low count posters making pretty general enquiries about things handgun related.

Sparks wrote: »

Journalists are welcome here, as are low-count posters. Hell, bring in all the journalists you can, at least they'll get access to the actual raw data and statements rather than what we've seen from the Times and RTE of late.

People acting the muppet and trolling are, and have always been, unwelcome - but that does not mean that having opposing views gets you kicked out, it just means everyone has to be civil in here.

Also, this is a very busy thread, so it's bouncing around at the top of the 'Latest Post' list on the front page of Boards.ie, so people who'd not normally come in here (or even know 'here' exists) are clicking into it.

Sparks

The transcript from last nights debate in the Dail is now up on the oireactas website here:
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20081118.xml&Node=H17#H17
Apart from the Minister's comments on curtailing licence handguns and having it policy-driven, no-one else even mentioned it.

It wasn't me!

lancer326 wrote: »

i will never be uncivil. im just trying to understand the ins and outs of the whole issue. i AM NOT a journalist or anything else in the media. im simply a poor aul student doing a paper in college on constitutional law. the Charleton Judgment got me thinking about the whole issue of guns and the law, and the Govt's right to restrict something on a public safety point of view. that's all. sorry if i offended anybody. not my intention.

Rights? Yeah, they have the right to legislate against it, but this is a moral decision, frankly. To gloss over their own problems, they're attempting to suggest that licensed firearms are a threat to the public (which they're not), but if you get enough people to believe it, the legislation goes through quickly and neatly and the Minister is hailed as the guy who prevented an Irish Dunblane. This is clearly not the case, but appearances are everything in politics. To badly paraphrase Machiavelli, if you can't be good, at least be seen to be good.

Nodin

lancer326 wrote: »

so 1700 people are seeking to stop a democratically elected Dail from implementing a policy for the safety of the public?

The safety of the public is at no risk whatsoever from legally held firearms, be they pistols or larger weapons of any calibre, nor did he state that.

Secondly, if the argument was potential risk, thats sheer speculation, as no incidents of note have occurred. However, were we to go down that road, no male under the age of 30 would be allowed drive an automobile, based on incidents that have occurred, and rates of serious death and injury. Unfortunately the argument based on statistics re cars is not as easily sold as the one relating to fear and firearms.

There is such a thing as "tyranny of the majority" which many states take precautions against. This is what happens where no such precautions exist.

lancer326 wrote: »

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue is all about glocks here.

I'm afraid you're entirely wrong. A 'glock' is merely a brand of pistol. It fires the same calibre bullet as many others, as accurately as many others. A 9mm bullet from a Glock is no more deadly than a 9mm round from a pistol designed many years before. There are very few of them in this country legally.

Sparks

lancer326 wrote: »

i will never be uncivil. im just trying to understand the ins and outs of the whole issue. i AM NOT a journalist or anything else in the media. im simply a poor aul student doing a paper in college on constitutional law. the Charleton Judgment got me thinking about the whole issue of guns and the law, and the Govt's right to restrict something on a public safety point of view. that's all. sorry if i offended anybody. not my intention.

Zero problem there - but do remember to do a check on precedents set in the other 70-odd cases which disagreed with Charleton's take on things.

G17

From reliable source, not a blanket ban, from his communication just now with powers that be. No further specific details despite a prolonged attempt to extract.


I'm quite willing to post postive hearsay as the negatives are all too prolific......

trapmando

Are there actually any figures indicating how many legally held handguns were stolen or used in criminality after they were stolen? It might be the case that all the legally held hand guns issued over the last 3 or 4 years are still legal and safely held, with none being stolen or used in criminality?

So it may be useful to get the facts and figures to build a case to prove that it's not the legally issued handguns that are causing the problem, and that a banning of them wont make a difference according to this evidence

Sparks

Well, hearsay's all that's been seen in the times so far...

Sparks

trapmando wrote: »

Are there actually any figures indicating how many legally held handguns were stolen or used in criminality after they were stolen?

None. We've asked twice in the Dail over the past two years, and each time the Minister has said no such figures exist. And six days ago, the Commissioner said the same thing to the Public Accounts Committee (the transcript is up in the other thread on Deasy&Mitchell's comments, and the minister's questions are in the Parlimentary Questions thread).

trapmando

They seem pretty quick and able to get figures for those issued but not those stolen or used in crime? Surely they have some more evidence to warrant a ban than 'someone else shot with a handgun, lets ban them!'

They would be leaving themselves open for a European court challenge to a ban based on no evidence!

Red Renard

chem wrote: »

I know sparks. Just got that from DOJ press office and stuck it up to piece together all the snip bits flooting around.

Getting press statement later from DOJ on whats been reported today. Press office guy said it wont be a blanket ban on pistols

Considering that on the island of Ireland pistol shooting will still be taking place in makes sense. The Olympic 2012, NI will be the big winner provoiding accommodation and ranges for countries from all around the world.

The troubles lasted 30 years, in all that time civilian firearms were not taken in (NI) reason, the northern Ireland authorities attitude at the time was "we know where they are". Down south the opposite happened. A blanket ban or non renewal of pistol licenses only serves gangland, shows the power they have over our society.

The FCP was set up by the minister / doj in the first place, is it not reasonable to expect as a sign of good faith for the FCP be recalled immediately before any more statements are issued on this matter.

ranger4

So looks like legal law abiding citizens are going to be shafted again, surley some reasonable conclusion can be worked out with the government with this matter, There must be a possitive approach by the shooting body to advertise this unjust decision to the general public and inform the ministers of the past injustice against Legaly law abiding citizens injoying their sport, Every Legal shooter in the country should help by contributing to a mass advertising fund to help all legaly owned firearms owner to continue to injoy their sport ifnot the ban will not only include pistols but every shooting descipline.

Sparks

Possibly trap, but I doubt it. EU firearms law is clear - nations get to decide their own firearms law, EU firearms law cannot countermand or supersede it. Which rather kicks the no-evidence legal argument against a ban in the teeth

bunny shooter

FCP members have used this board previously.

Any chance of a statement from them? Were they briefed in advance on this announcement?

Sparks

In fairness BS, while the question stands, the only real statement we've seen from the Minister doesn't mention any ban, and only the Irish Times has said that there's a blanket ban coming in. Not saying don't ask, but I am saying that we're not sure what the feck is going on at the moment.

Red Renard

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/298716

Sparks

RTE are now reporting this as a crackdown, not a ban. No mention of bans at all in there in fact.

Ahern vows crackdown on handguns
Wednesday, 19 November 2008 10:36

The Minister for Justice has signalled a crackdown on licensed handguns.

Dermot Ahern was responding in the Dáil last night to Opposition criticism of the Government's tackling of organised crime.

The murder of Shane Geoghegan in Limerick prompted the private members' debate, with Fine Gael calling for new measures to crackdown on crime gangs.

Fine Gael justice spokesperson Charlie Flanagan said that by failing to prosecute organised crime-linked murders, the Government is failing the victims, failing their families and failing society.

Party colleague Jimmy Deenihan warned that organised crime in Limerick was about to spread into surrounding areas like his own north Kerry constituency, where he said the Limerick gangs were already in control of the drugs trade.

In response, Mr Ahern promised new legislation, including the covert surveillance bill he announced earlier in the day, as well as multi-agency checkpoints including gardaí, customs, social welfare and environment to put relentless pressure on criminal gangs.

He added that there had been no legally held handguns until a number of judicial decisions in 2004, and that he would not tolerate a proliferation of such weapons.

chem

Minister Dermot Ahern Outlines Handguns Ban



The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Mr. Dermot Ahern, T.D.
today outlined his proposals to ban licensed handguns.

The Minister said the handgun ban would be included in legislation
currently being prepared which will be published shortly.

Minister Ahern said: “Since being appointed, I have made clear my growing
concern at the number and type of handguns being licensed.

“From the early 1970s, in the light of the Troubles, until 2004, all
handguns were banned in this jurisdiction. But following a series of
judicial decisions that is no longer the case and about 1800 handguns have
been licensed. There was no public policy decision to bring about this
situation.

“I am mindful of comments made by Mr. Justice Charleton in his judgement in
a recent firearms case that a reasonable person is entitled to feel alarmed
at the proliferation of handguns. My concern is that unless strong and
decisive action is taken the number of handguns could grow exponentially
and our firearms regime would equate to that of countries such as the
United States. Today we have 1800 legal handguns – in three years time that
number could exceed 4,000 and rising.

“This is completely unacceptable. While I know the vast majority of
licensed gun owners behave responsibly, my paramount concern must be the
protection of the public, particularly against the background of the level
of gun crime which is taking place.”

Some time ago the Minister directed his Department and An Garda Síochána to
carry out an urgent and intensive review of the firearms law. Proposals
arising from that review will be reflected in a Criminal Justice
(Miscellaneous) Provisions Bill which is being prepared as a matter of
urgency and which the Minister will bring forward shortly.

His proposals for radical reform in this area include

· no new licences will be issued for handguns.
· existing licenses will not be renewed unless applications fully
meet the requirements of a radically tightened licensing procedure where
the safety of the community will be paramount
· the Minister will keep under annual review, in consultation with
the Garda Commissioner, the outcome of the licensing procedure and, if the
outcome of that procedure leaves a situation which still poses an
unacceptable risk to the community, will use new powers, which the Bill
will contain, to ban outright any type of firearm.


The Bill will provide for the revocation of any handgun licenses which may
be issued between now and the enactment of the legislation and it is
intended that anyone applying for a handgun license in that period will be
informed of that fact.

The Minister is prepared to make very limited exceptions in relation to
Olympic sports only.

The Minister considers that his proposals will not cause inconvenience to
the vast majority of gun owners, who have had no interest in acquiring hand
guns.

The Minister said "While I regret the need for these proposals, the reality
is that if we were subject to a Dunblane type incident or stolen legal
handguns were used to kill innocent civilians the present situation, which
has not arisen as the result of any policy decision, would be impossible to
justify."

19 November 2008

civdef

Very little room for maneuvre there then.

bigred

chem wrote: »

The Minister is prepared to make very limited exceptions in relation to
Olympic sports only.

Where's the piece from Chem?

<edit>D'Oh - should have read the header?!?!?</edit>