Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

Grizzly 45

"Before Ireland turns into the USA"..So BORED of hearing this crap from ministers,journalists and others!!!:mad: Wake UP FFS!!
We do not have the pouplation,the constitutional rights,the Federal laws or attitudes of the US on gun ownership here in Ireland,and will never have it either!!!
IT IS A PRIVILIGE NOT A RIGHT TO OWN A GUN IN IRELAND!!!
Quit comparing an elephant to a flea!! If you want to compare like and like..Try Irl/UK,Irl /Switzerland,Holland,Belguim,Denmark,Austria.
At least they are gunowning countries with the same firearm laws in general as here.With almost the same landmass and pouplation....
In this comparision we are actually closer to Berlin than Boston.

wyk

shqipshume wrote: »

If they pass that law in full just means the gangsters wont have guns
Use your noggin:)

Guns have expiration (expirey) dates?

meathstevie

shqipshume wrote: »

If they pass that law in full just means the gangsters wont have guns
Use your noggin:)

And that indeed my friends is what our politicians would want us to believe. Just like non-prescription or non-regulated drugs are illegal and therefore don't exist, just like rape and theft are offences and therefore nobody commits them...for feck's sake...even the most brainwashed Pravda reader in 1947 wouldn't believe that kind of logic if Stalin himself was standing in front of him saying it.

Grizzly 45

even the most brainwashed Pravda reader in 1947 wouldn't believe that kind of logic if Stalin himself was standing in front of him saying it.

ROTFLMAO!!:pac::pac::D:D:D
Thanks MS.!! Needed that!!!:)

macnas

jwshooter wrote: »

firearm ownership in ireland should be a privilege not a right .if the members of the irish shooting public cant behave there selves with there firearms take them away from them ,its a no brain-er .this was always going to come to a head .i know ,we all know scum bags that have firearm s .the cops had not the power to say no now they have or will have .there after getting there noses rubbed in for the last 4 years now its pay back time .i spent all last nite trying to stop lads shooting stags along the road ,we lost 3 stags in the last two nites .i would love to see these baxxxxds lose the guns .we can not govern ourseleves so some one has to

What kind of sh1te is this?, who can't behave themselves?, what scumbags do you know that have firearms?, whose been rubbing the 'cops' noses in it?

Is this the arguement you're going to use when Ahern comes looking for your .270?

TargetWidow

chem wrote: »

I might join the Gardai, because then I might be allowed to own a firearm in our future police state

Chem is going over to the dark side.....:(
Surely a high IQ like your own should prevent your acceptance to Templemore though? Better off in the army!

Grizzly 45

[Darth Vadar voice] Come to the dark side of the Force Chem..I have guns and am your father!:D:pac:
If it ever comes to that in Ireland that the Gardai are armed on the beat,it means that the Bad guys have got so much firepower that guns are freely available to all and sundry on the black market,and things have gone really tits socially here up to make liscensing laws somwhat of an academic concern.Hmmm,sounds like the UK actually.:rolleyes:

TargetWidow

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[Darth Vadar voice] Come to the dark side of the Force Chem..I have guns and am your father.

That could equally apply to becoming a skobie or a guard!!!!Although most of the skobies don't know who their fathers are! Personally I know which dark side I'd choose if push came to shove! That Ban-Garda uniform is just HIDEOUS and they should require a license for that much polyester in one outfit! Having said that if the day dawned it'd probably be easier in terms of being accepted into their hallowed ranks to join the Gardai than it would be to get into a gang. Very choosy people you know! And the gangs would have better firearms capacity. Sure in the eyes of the law the way things are going here we'll all be outlaws anyway.

About those starter pistols (27 of them) that were reported stolen in those statistics.... Is is a likely case that they came under the licensing system and suddenly rather than licence them or relinquish them the owners decided that they had been "stolen"? 27 seems like an awful lot of them to get stolen. Are the gang-members in training for the 2012 athletics in the olympics or what that they need to be robbing starting pistols?:rolleyes:

IRLConor

shqipshume wrote: »

Ok i have a Question what the hell do Irish need Hand guns for?

It's not about needs, it's about wants. If someone wants something (anything, not just a firearm), and they are checked out and found not to be a threat to security or to the peace then why shouldn't they have it? Nobody needs a hurley, a baseball bat, or any other piece of sporting equipment that gets used for crime but plenty of people want them and don't pose a threat by owning them. It's the same story with firearms. Some people need firearms (livestock/crop protection being a common reason) but many have them just because they want to enjoy some of the many shooting sports.

Each and every handgun in this state has been issued on the condition that a Superintendent of the Garda Siochana has determined that by issuing the firearm certificate the owner "can be permitted to possess, use and carry the firearm and ammunition without danger to the public safety or security or the peace" among several other conditions. Shouldn't the considered opinion of a senior Garda be enough for you?

If you still want to go down the route of banning things that people don't strictly need but which directly or indirectly kill people might I suggest you start with alcohol and tobacco? They kill far more people in Ireland than firearms do.

shqipshume wrote: »

If they pass that law in full just means the gangsters wont have guns

If they could enforce the current laws in full the gangsters wouldn't have guns. No need for more legislation.

Enforcing the law is very, very hard work and the Gardai will never get all the gangsters. That's not due to incompetence, it's because the measures required to get all the gangsters would be abhorrent in a civilised country. There will be scumbags with firearms from now till kingdom come. Reducing the numbers of scumbags with guns is the only realistic course of action and that can't be done with legislation. It can only be done with policing.

Unfortunately, funding and equipping the Gardai to deal with gun crime (and the drugs trade that fuels it) and implementing the social measures to reduce the factors that lead people to crime in the first place are all more difficult and expensive than introducing legislation. The Minister is taking the easy route and implementing a collective punishment on totally innocent people in an attempt to look tough on crime. Please don't buy into his nonsense.

BornToKill

TargetWidow wrote: »

those starter pistols (27 of them) that were reported stolen

Has it actually been established then that these were starter pistols? Where are you getting this information and can you post a link please? Thanks!

Bananaman

Was it not inthe article in the Indo - he said there were 31 licensed handguns stolen in the last 4 years - he outlined how many of them were fullbore pistols and revolvers - 4 - the rest are anythng else that is classified as a handgun which will include starter pistols - of course they could be anything else which falls into that bracket aswell (paintball markers need licenses - are they 'handguns'? ).

B'Man

Grizzly 45

Well,classified as firearms under ROI law.
Which is taking the term "firearm" to its'extreme as possible when talking about or firearms here.
How as CS aerosol sprayer can can be classified as a firearm,when in ROI law it has a category in the 1925 act of" prohibited device" still is not explained.

Down to 4 now.In what year and circumstances were they nicked is going to be the next task.

Thought on this one;Were they Blank fire pistols?They would require liscenses as well,and could be either classified as "starter pistols" or flare pistols[with the supplied flare cup and flare ] or real firearms depending on whoever's outlook on who is issuing these statistics??

Grizzly 45

Tom Brady security editor of the Indo in an article titled
replica handguns seized in searches by Gardai [Irish independant 06/01 /09]

Well and good that they were seized off CIRA,and that indeed there are certain types of blank firers of Russian origin that can be converted but again there is this total misinformation and distortion of facts to seemingly fit an agenda.

Like the possesion of deactivated firearms is illegal in Ireland.A patently FALSE statement.And this same old BS about Min Aherne and the crack down on legally held handguns.

Is this man really that ignorant of firearms??Or does he just parrot everything he is told by certain parties?:(

PJ Hunter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Tom Brady security editor of the Indo in an article titled
replica handguns seized in searches by Gardai [Irish independant 06/01 /09]

Well and good that they were seized off CIRA,and that indeed there are certain types of blank firers of Russian origin that can be converted but again there is this total misinformation and distortion of facts to seemingly fit an agenda.

Like the possesion of deactivated firearms is illegal in Ireland.A patently FALSE statement.And this same old BS about Min Aherne and the crack down on legally held handguns.

Is this man really that ignorant of firearms??Or does he just parrot everything he is told by certain parties?:(

haven't a clue grizzly. read this book over the christmas.

http://blather.net/store/literary/the_third_policeman_by_flann_obrien.html

kowloon

Feck it: I'd picked out a lovely replica remington cap and ball over in England before I came home for the holidays and found out about this rubbish. Doesn't look like that's a runner now.
Seems to me that the problem is once they're gone, they're gone. Even when the gangs are still smuggling in their pistols as they always have, and it's business as usual, the government will pull the same $hit as the British and refuse to admit their mistake.

linuxman52000

lancer326 wrote: »

so 1700 people are seeking to stop a democratically elected Dail from implementing a policy for the safety of the public? In the words of the minister...

"I do not believe that as a matter of public policy we as a people can
countenance a proliferation of handguns. While I recognise that the vast
majority of handgun owners are responsible people, as Minister my concern is the safety of the public, particularly at a time of concern about gun crime."

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue is all about glocks here. Is that not a gun designed for army/police/military? is it seriously being argued that a glock is designed to "TARGET SHOOT"?

Forgive me here folks but are we suggesting that if i fire a 9x19 bullet from a GLOCK pistol that as it leaves the muzzle it changes into maybe a heavy artillery round or something similar?. The last time i fired a GLOCK pistol, it had roughly the same length barrel as most of the pistols i fired on the same day & they all fired either 9x19 or .40 rounds, i have to say i didn't notice any difference in the buts as the rounds fired from the GLACKS struck the sand. Having said all that, I have to add that I really don't like the GLOCK pistols, too much plastic & too light, given the choice i'd go for the old COLD M1911 in 45 ACP, a real pistol

Grizzly 45

Go for the best of both worlds then.Bul Transmark .45 ACP,or 9mm or40 S&W. 1911A1 style with lower polymer frame and hi cap 14 shot mag.
3.5lb trigger pull.. Ramped barrel and lowerd ejection port as std.more custom features as std than most bespoke 1911 gunsmiths will charge for.:D

Anyways,yeah last time I checked mine[Glock] it still shot 9X19 para ammo.
I didnt feel any inclination to wear a shell suit,alot of bling gold jewellery,my baseball cap backwards,listen to East LA Rap music and start prefixing every sentence with the words
"Yo" or" Muthaf*ka" Sign with my hands Gang symbols,[or basically look like I am suffering from loss of mental ability to control my hands and arms]Or the need to" Pop a cap in X 's ass":rolleyes:
Nor the need to go out and shoot somone because they ratted me family out on a drug deal.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

It still shot holes acceptably well in a piece of PAPER at 20 meters over tri dot sights,more or less in the black due to my incompetance rather than the gun.So YES it can certainly shoot targets as well as a military/police/civillian/criminal gum.

It is NOT the gun,it is the PERSON behind it and their intent!!
NOR is it the "choice weapon "of Irish/East LA/SMERSH or whomever criminals.Criminals will buy whatever is availble at the moment in the underground dealer,and is the cheapest or mostest available. If 44 magnums or 38 specials were availabe,they would be the "Dirty Harry weapon of choice of criminals".Think that was proven today.If blank firers are converted to live firing,criminals will buy them here.They are not fussy.
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

shqipshume

Bananaman wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder ........

The only laws that affect the gangsters are already in place - they simply need to be enforced - the Garda Commissioner has already said he does not need any new legislation in order to combat these crimes - he simply needs more Gardai and people to testify against the scumbags in court.

Legal handgun ownership is only for sport and has no association whatsoever with ANY crime statistic. Removing it will only abolish a range of sports and will have no other effect whatsoever.

This has been proven in Britain where they have experiemnetd with this for 10 years and it has been an abject failure..

B'Man

What kind of hand gun do you use for sport?

The only way is to completely abolish Gun handling if you are not member of gun club and have criminal record(ofc of certain kind)
Without them been able to hold legal and the serial numbers been on record also their forensics of been fired,which they should also hold of any legally held firearm in Ireland as the country is small enough to monitor these things.

Anyway i dont think you should have a gun unless you need it not because you want one.That's how i feel about:)

IRLConor

shqipshume wrote: »

What kind of hand gun do you use for sport?

Lots of kinds. Some look nothing like handguns as you'd know them from TV. Some are the handguns you'd see in movies. There are lots of different shooting sports and they all have different rules about what firearms are allowed.

Here are a few examples of handguns which have been used in competitive target shooting in Ireland over the last few years:

Baikal (.177 air pistol)


Pardini (.22lr):


Glock (9mm):

shqipshume wrote: »

The only way is to completely abolish Gun handling if you are not member of gun club and have criminal record(ofc of certain kind)

I don't know quite what you're getting at here. If you mean "You shouldn't be able to own a handgun unless you're a member of a club and don't have a criminal record" then you're describing the situation as it stands right now.

shqipshume wrote: »

Without them been able to hold legal and the serial numbers been on record also their forensics of been fired,which they should also hold of any legally held firearm in Ireland as the country is small enough to monitor these things.

There are approximately 220,000 firearms legally held in this country. All the serial numbers are on file, but they have not all been ballistic tested. This is for several reasons: it would cost a lot, it would be a massive administration headache, there's no clear advantage (apparently ballistic test databases have a poor record when implemented in other countries) and most importantly a huge proportion of the firearms in the country (about 170,000 I think) are shotguns which I presume can't be ballistic tested (at least not in the way you'd see on CSI ).

shqipshume wrote: »

Anyway i dont think you should have a gun unless you need it not because you want one.That's how i feel about:)

Well, that ends up punishing a lot of innocent people. I can't demonstrate a need for the firearm I have a certificate for since I don't have to compete as a target shooter. Essentially you'd be restricting the firearms to people who need them to kill animals.

If you assume that half the shotguns, half the rifles and none of the handguns in the country are for killing animals (I don't know what the breakdown is, I wouldn't be surprised if more than half were for hunting) then you're still going to end up with over 100,000 legally held firearms. All of them will need to be shot on a range occasionally to ensure they're zeroed and to provide the users with some training, so I can't see any clear advantage to be had by removing firearms that are only used for target shooting.

Meyer

shqipshume wrote: »

Anyway i dont think you should have a gun unless you need it not because you want one.That's how i feel about:)

Would you ban cigarettes? Most people that want them don't really need them... and wanting them is hardly an excuse given that it's not that hard to give them up, and they also kill far more people the world over than handguns ever will :eek:.

Manic Moran

First reply I got from Olivia Mitchell was by one of her staff, and not entirely on point (More worried about the Commissioner's statments). However, (And I really have to give her kudos for engaging me in conversation, unlike many politicians) progress was made. I had pointed out how the Commissioner's concerns would be addressed with full implementation of the 06 act, that not all sports are in the Olympics (eg GAA) and that the IPSC handgun competitions were in such violent places as France, amongst other arguments.

Dear Manic

First of all my apologies for the delay in responding to your to your pre-Christmas email. I do understand your gripe and the fact that it is with the Minister. I have to confess I didn't realise that there were gun sports which are not in fact Olympic sports and I can completely accept this does present a problem for those involved. Clearly these sports would die when the current license holders do. I have spoken to the Department and I understand that the legislation will be published in the New Year and I will ensure that our spokesperson Charlie Flanagan, who has I know great sympathy with the sports clubs, makes these points in the course of the debate by way of amendment.

I enclose a copy of a letter which I received from the Department which I understand reflects the Minister's proposals though of course these often change when the legislation is actually published.

With kind regards,

Olivia

I'm sure the Dept's letter has been posted previously. It included the old saw about how Ireland could devolve into the US.

I just sent back a comment that there are plenty of European models Ireland could follow instead, and that if he proposed a Swiss model, there would be mass celebration in the Irish shooting community.

Finished with an attempt at humour.

Actually, I don't suppose we could push for an Irish version of the Knabenschiessen, could we? It's the national Swiss children's shooting festival, government sponsored. Of course, that involves 13-year-olds shooting Army-issue service rifles, not Olympic airguns, the Minister might have a heart attack. Still, it would be amusing to see his reaction.

NTM

rrpc

Manic Moran wrote: »

First reply I got from Olivia Mitchell was by one of her staff, and not entirely on point (More worried about the Commissioner's statments). However, (And I really have to give her kudos for engaging me in conversation, unlike many politicians) progress was made. I had pointed out how the Commissioner's concerns would be addressed with full implementation of the 06 act, that not all sports are in the Olympics (eg GAA) and that the IPSC handgun competitions were in such violent places as France, amongst other arguments.

That's quite a measured response and one of the first I've seen that actually engaged with the issue. I've been trying to push the same line about the existing legislation and it always seemed to get garbled in translation.

Well done Manic :cool:

cavan shooter

I got the standard letter response that all of ye got from Minister Ahearns office, wrote back saying I know all this but why? why compare Ireland to America why not a European model....guess what. I recieved the standard letter back twice:mad:

Grizzly 45

Anyway i dont think you should have a gun unless you need it not because you want one.That's how i feel about:)

[/QUOTE]

Personally,I feel we dont need cars that go over 60mph either or cost more than 2000 euros these days either.Considering we slaughter on average 300 people a year on Irish roads by speeding.
Not to mind global warming,speed limits ,so no one really NEEDS a high power car either.You should really have to prove you need a 4litre engine car or s as well,and by rights having more than 1.5 litres would suggest that you MIGHT break the speeding law!As you can kill more people with a car than a gun any time.Plus you should be made provide secure storage for your car as well.As it is and can be considerd a deadly weapon under law,just as a gun.
Applying those kind of stats to gun deaths by legally held firearms and the anti gun people and minister would most certainly have a rightful arguement.
Thats how I feel about it.:)

Sparks

Actually, you can't have a firearms licence unless you have a good reason allready, and "I want one" is not a good reason for 99.999% of all garda superintendents...

Manic Moran

That kindof kills off target shooting then. I don't think anyone needs to participate in the sport. We do it because we want to.

NTM

Sparks

Not quite Manic, it's a bit subtle but the distinction is that we want to partake in the sport of target shooting, for which purpose we need a firearm. So wanting to take part in the sport is a sufficiently good reason; but just wanting a gun is not.

Rovi

The Irish Times website reports the following little gem from Labour's Joe Costello in relation to the gangland shooting last night-

Labour’s Joe Costello said the shooting was “savage” and called on the Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern to introduce “zero licensing of handguns”.

Original text here-
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0108/breaking5.htm

Also preserved in the Press Clippings thread-
#90

clivej

I haven't read all of the posts here but I was talking to my FO last night and she seems to think that all handgun licenses will be withheld from next July. That's the word from the head office.

Trojan911

clivej wrote: »

I haven't read all of the posts here but I was talking to my FO last night and she seems to think that all handgun licenses will be withheld from next July. That's the word from the head office.

This one of the reasons why I never went for one. I've had a feeling for a long time, way before the recent furore, that it wouldn't last.

Still, it's not happened yet, however it will be a major blow to the sport if handguns are withdrawn from the discipline of target shooting. The sport will basically cease to exist.