Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

mad puppy

Hi all, first time poster but sometime reader.
I've not lived in Ireland for five years, but I was happy for you all when I heard about the handgun ban being lifted. I was equally disappointed, if not surprised, by the recent government and public reaction. So I feel moved enough to put my views across.

Sparks is right, you need to do something. However you will not achieve much with politicians so long as you are a tiny niche community with no public backing. You need to convince Sean and Sile citizen, in their comfy homes with their comfy attitudes, to support you.
Unfortunately you have an uphill battle with a media dominated by the chattering classes who view Ireland as a Special Place, where our uniformed Gardai don't need to carry weapons (whatever the hidden reality regarding plain-closed officers), where even our army is a peacekeeping force of social workers who never fire a shot in anger and where any change in this can only result in Ireland becoming Texas or South Africa.
You have to counter the argument that nobody needs a gun, which is only designed to kill, therefore nobody should have a gun. That mindset alone is your greatest hurdle, and aggressive responses to it will be counterproductive so you have to approach it indirectly.

You need to completely refuse any link with the USA, because in the Irish mind, US = Gun Nut, story, end of.
Instead point loudly to the dull, boring, quiet and peaceful countries all over Europe where shooting goes on without fuss. You need to have hoards of examples of Norwegians and Swedes and Spaniards and French and Germans who totally counter the US gun-nut image. You need to have links with and endorsement from gun clubs in these countries and you need to make it public.
Clubs need to have open days, with tea and cakes. The IFA, the ICA, the local knitting circle and their old Auntie Niamh need to be invited for tea and cakes repeatedly and often, so they can see that shooters are not mad survivalists cleaning their weapons in a dark room. They need to see handguns in the hands of sober, normal people just like them and see the care, attention to safety and discipline that typifies the shooter. Rather than the traditionally closed-off aura that most Irish gun clubs have in the public mind, you need to expand your membership - recruit actively from sections of the community that have respect and weight. Get your local Garda super involved. Recruit your local representatives.
Indeed, Gardai who are firearms-qualified should be encouraged to join gun clubs to make sure they can maintain their standards to a degree that Garda training and re-certification alone simply does not and never will permit - shooters need to practice often if they are to maintain standards.

Gun clubs should be active in the community, sponsoring events, working for charity and increasing their profile.

Don't just whine. You'll be ignored, and indeed will get people's backs up because, make no mistake, a large section of the Irish public is only too happy to see you and your sport squashed without bothering to think too deeply about it. The government knows this, Costelloe and Ahearn are typical of the public viewpoint, not out of touch at all. They actually believe what they are saying. Which is why they will also to milk the issue to draw attention away from the fact that there is no way that illegal firearms will ever be removed from Irish streets.

Ahem. Sermon over.

rrpc

mad puppy wrote: »

Gun clubs should be active in the community, sponsoring events, working for charity and increasing their profile.

This is already being done all over the country. The problem IMO is that shooting is part of the urban/rural divide which unfortunately means that the majority of people in this country are never exposed to the shooting sports in any meaningful way.

In the largely ruaral areas that most clubs in this country operate, they are usually held in very high regard because of their direct involvement in the communities. There are numerous instances of clubs getting involved in local events and being well supported and in fact taken for granted in the same way that say GAA clubs are.

There are virtually no clubs in the major urban centres of this country and so there is no familiarity with them and as Sparks said earlier on this thread, the unknown is feared.

Rathdrum rifle club is right in the centre of the town and has been for over 40 years. The level of acceptance of shooting as a sport is correspondingly very high and is supported (and has been) by all local politicians, community groups, traders and locals.

In some cases this can lead to very surreal conversations. One old lady complimented the chairman of the club for the increase in activity over the last few years saying "It's great to see chaps over there all the time, I feel a lot safer at night!"

I was in a neighbour's house last night and in the course of conversation he asked me how the new rifle range was progressing. When I explained that as the development in Rathdrum had stalled, nothing was likely to happen for the forseeable future he replied "Aren't you the cute hoors for only agreeing to a key for a key, the other eejits who signed up are absolutely screwed"

We can only dream that this could be the case everywhere.

G17

Kryten wrote: »

E- Mail of complaint sent to Joe Costello.

+1

cc to my local Labour man

mad puppy

rrpc wrote: »

This is already being done all over the country. The problem IMO is that shooting is part of the urban/rural divide which unfortunately means that the majority of people in this country are never exposed to the shooting sports in any meaningful way.

Which is also because when Irish people think of "gun club", they think of farmers with shotguns. Nobody links gun clubs to pistols, nor do they draw a link between the rural shotgun owner and the pistol shooter. The fact that until 1972 there were pistol owners all over the state without civil war ensuing is lost on most.

That link has to be made in the public mind if pistol shooting is to survive. Nobody is going to take the shotguns or the .22 rifles, that would just never fly, so the link can hardly harm those sports. If pistol ranges are seen as places where fine upstanding members of the community such as off-duty cops go to practice a skill that is no more dangerous than clay-pigeon shooting and less bloody than hunting, you might shift attitudes.

Trojan911

A group of raiders escaped with a number of weapons from the house of a licensed firearms dealer in Co Tipperary last night.

A garda spokesman said the four men were lying in wait outside the house in Cregg, Carrick on Suir, for the owners to return from a night out.

When the couple returned at 1:30am the raiders, one of them armed, forced them into the house and stole approximately 30 firearms including pistols and rifles.

The raiders then made their getaway in the family car, a beige-champagne coloured Honda Civic saloon with the registration number 03-WX-5048. No shots were fired and no one was injured in the raid. There were two other people in the house at the time.

Anyone with information is asked to contact Gardaí at Carrick on Suir on 051 642040, the Garda Confidential Line on 1800 666 111, or any Garda Station.

Gardaí say they are particularly interested in locating the whereabouts of the car taken or any sightings of it since this incident occurred.

Source

Bananaman

Sent yesterday Morning:

Dear Mr. Costello,

I am writing to you in response to your comments quoted in this morning Irish Times.

Specifically: 'Labour’s Joe Costello said the shooting was “savage” and called on the Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern to introduce “zero licensing of handguns”'

To begin with I fully understand how you can be angry with the seeming indecision and lack of action on the part of the current Government to deal with the escalation of gun crime in Dublin and the country in general. I myself am angry about it. I realise that your own constituency has been one of the most affected parts of the country and that you would be feeling frustration at the sitting governments inability to help you and your constituents. I can only imagine the fear and torment of people who live under the daily threat of these criminals.

However, as a licensed pistol owner, I am distraught that you feel that those licensed by the Gardai to partake in the shooting sports have in any way contributed to this state of affairs.

Minister Ahern has been blowing his trumpet over the last few months that he is going to abolish the pistol shooting sports and that this is necessary on foot of what has been happening in our society. This is a smokescreen and I would have hoped that you, as a representative for a constituency most effected by gun crime in our country, would be aware of this. There may or may not be licensed pistol owners in your constituency but they will not make that fact known to anyone nor offer any threat whatsoever to anyone.

Gun crime is perpetrated by those that have little or no concern for the laws of society or the value of human life.
These are criminals, scumbags, the dregs of society.

Target shooting is competed in by those that have the utmost respect for the laws of society and have been proven to be so.
They partake in their sports with safety for themselves and others being the primary concern at all times.
These are the law abiding, tax paying, voters from all parts of society and the country.
In my own club alone we have Gardai, Doctors, Architects, Software Engineers, Lorry Drivers, Roofers, Plasterers, Housewives, Estate Agents, Plumbers and Students among others.

The difference could not be more stark.

I hope that I have helped, in some small way, to highlight the fact that banning the licensing of pistols for target shooting and the associated banning of the pistol target shooting sports will have absolutely no effect on the the Gun Crime statistics or in any way make the streets safer for any of us.

If I, or indeed other members of my club, or the club itself, can provide you with any further information or can do anything to help clarify the situation further please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours in Sport,
*********

Relevant

Trojan911 wrote: »

A group of raiders escaped with a number of weapons from the house of a licensed firearms dealer in Co Tipperary last night.

A garda spokesman said the four men were lying in wait outside the house in Cregg, Carrick on Suir, for the owners to return from a night out.

When the couple returned at 1:30am the raiders, one of them armed, forced them into the house and stole approximately 30 firearms including pistols and rifles.

The raiders then made their getaway in the family car, a beige-champagne coloured Honda Civic saloon with the registration number 03-WX-5048. No shots were fired and no one was injured in the raid. There were two other people in the house at the time.

Anyone with information is asked to contact Gardaí at Carrick on Suir on 051 642040, the Garda Confidential Line on 1800 666 111, or any Garda Station.

Gardaí say they are particularly interested in locating the whereabouts of the car taken or any sightings of it since this incident occurred.

Source

Does this put the agrument about sport pistols beng stolen to bed?

Bananaman

What about Honda Civics?

B'Man

PJ Hunter

Dear Eamon & Joe.

Enda Kenny has gone about the issue of licensed citizens who are firearms holders of pistols in a reasonable way after initial attacks made by two members of his party.
Calm logic should prevail on this matter, knee-jerk reactions only serve to associate honest citizens with criminal. This is totally unexceptionable inexcusable in fact considering the amount of evidence that can discredit Joe's argument.

Here are some facts which you both should research into.

An Garda only license pistols to citizens of suitable good character.
Firearms officers must be satisfied that the highest level of security is put in place before a license is granted to the citizen. Considering that pistols are dismantled, vital small parts stored away from the master safe, all pistols stored correctly in this manner make it extreamly difficult to steal pistols.The thief if they so wish have easy access to illegal firearms of all types that are constantly entering this country Illegally with drug shipments through our ports!

Without having the article at hand, recently a senior garda in charge of a Dublin district is quoted as having no problems with licensed pistols in his area. He explained it's the illegal ones and the people who use them. Approximation of what he said furthered by the fact that his patch has some of the hightest rates of gangland killings. It should be stated
no verified facts as to the amount / types /numbers of "legal pistols stolen" has been clarified to everyones satisfaction, any that have been stolen appear to be small in number, compaied to the vast amount of illegally imported criminal weaponary.


You should have some member of the labour party attend a full sesson of the FCP
(firearms consultive panel) set up by a previous minister for justice to educate themselves (FG, top marks.) fully before any final decision on this matter regarding pistols is decided.

I have added this quote not as a means of satire but to make you aware, perception and cynicism of the political system is at an all time high.

Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Groucho Marx.

rrpc

Relevant wrote: »

Does this put the agrument about sport pistols beng stolen to bed?

Does it?

Does it not tell you that a law abiding citizen and his family were terrorised by criminals using illegal firearms in a criminal manner to force them to hand over their property?

Or are you suggesting a return to the old Proudhon philosophy of "property is theft"?

Sikamick

As Bananaman said what about he Honda Civic, Read Below

Prestige cars stolen to order - Irish Times

---

Found this article in todays Irish Times.... interesting reading the week we launched http://www.carwatch.ie

As many as 35 high performance cars and 4X4s a week are being stolen by gangs that break into people's houses in order to steal the vehicle's keys. The powerful cars and premium SUVs are often stolen to order and are destined for Britain, for sale in the private ads of car enthusiast magazines, or to be broken up for parts.

Prestige and high performance cars such as the latest VW Golf GTi top the thieves' order list.

However, according to the dedicated Garda Stolen Vehicle Unit, up to 80 per cent of these vehicles are being recovered before the thieves have a chance to export them or dismantle them so that their valuable parts can be sold on.

Due to the advancement of vehicle security, it is practically impossible to steal new vehicles without their keys. This has led to the growing problem of criminals breaking into motorists' homes, often while they are asleep, to steal their car keys.

According to Finbarr Garland of the Stolen Vehicle Unit, many of these criminal gangs are interested in what is parked in the drive of a house and will steal only the keys, often leaving valuables and even cash untouched. "They are fairly disciplined and are usually stealing to order and generally they only take the keys and nothing else."

But it is the car thieves' typical modus operandi that is often proving their downfall. Because many owners are fitting sophisticated covert tracking devices to their vehicles, the thieves are forced to leave the stolen vehicles in public places where they can be observed to see if they will be recovered using satellite trackers. The gardaí are now aware of the thieves' dilemma and are patrolling known hiding places in early morning searches for stolen cars. "We have got to know where they are hiding these vehicles and we now patrol apartment block car parks and certain other areas specifically looking for these stolen cars," explains Garland. This has led to the high rate of recovery.

Despite this, gardaí are warning motorists that they expect the number of vehicles being stolen to order with their keys to continue to grow and are advising owners of high-powered SUVs or cars to make them as difficult as possible to steal.

Cars that have tracking devices fitted generally enjoy a 100 per cent recovery rate and are often back with their owners within hours of being stolen.

However, most vehicles, including high performance ones, do not come with trackers as standard. The importers argue that added security is the motorist's choice. "It would be great if we could fit trackers as standard," says Tom O'Connor, VW sales manager. "But the competitive price of the vehicle would be harmed if we did this."

Insurance companies are now insisting that high value cars are fitted with tracking devices. AXA will refuse to insure a car valued at over €75,000 without a tracker and demands that any car valued at over €125,000 must have a system that enables a 24-hour tracking centre to monitor and remotely stop a car's engine should it be stolen.

The determination of car thieves to source and steal a vehicle to order became clear recently when the same car - a new Golf GTi - was stolen three times from three different houses in the greater Dublin area. Each time, the thieves - who are believed to be from three independent gangs - broke through the back door of the house to steal the car's keys while occupants were asleep.

After each theft, the GTi was left, undamaged, in a public place, and was located and recovered within hours by the use of a covert tracker.

But it is the 20 to 30 per cent of stolen cars that are not recovered that is making the risk of burgling motorists' homes and stealing their cars worth taking. Typically, the car thieves will receive 10 per cent of a car's value in cash when it is delivered to the criminal who placed the order.

Much greater profits are enjoyed by the criminals higher up the ladder who then fit the car with false plates and advertise it for sale as a legitimate vehicle, either in Britain or, increasingly in Ireland. Indeed, the number of stolen cars remaining in Ireland is expected to increase as the recent metric changeover has meant it is now more difficult to sell cars fitted with kilometre-only speedometers in Britain.

The gardaí warn that if you are considering buying a high performance car or SUV through the classified ads from a private seller, then you should never pay in cash and should always meet the seller at his house, never in a public place. It can be a very costly mistake if the car you have bought is later found to be stolen and has to be returned to its rightful owner, warns Garland.
__________________

Relevant

PJ Hunter wrote: »

Dear Eamon & Joe.

Here are some facts which you both should research into.

...

An Garda only license pistols to citizens of suitable good character.
Firearms officers must be satisfied that the highest level of security is put in place before a license is granted to the citizen. Considering that pistols are dismantled, vital small parts stored away from the master safe, all pistols stored correctly in this manner make it extreamly difficult to steal pistols.The thief if they so wish have easy access to illegal firearms of all types that are constantly entering this country Illegally with drug shipments through our ports!

...

My point is that when the debate started peole used the argument similar to above that they are safely locked away. This clearly isn't a sufficient detterrent.

rrpc

Relevant wrote: »

My point is that when the debate started peole used the argument similar to above that they are safely locked away. This clearly isn't a sufficient detterrent.

Nothing is going to prevent a theft being carried out in this manner, there is no defence to the gun under the chin and open your safe demand which obviously happened to this individual. The same modus operandi has been used just as effectively recently against the owner of a cash in transit company yet I heard no calls for these companies to cease business,

What do you think the stolen cash was used for?

Relevant

rrpc wrote: »

Nothing is going to prevent a theft being carried out in this manner, there is no defence to the gun under the chin and open your safe demand which obviously happened to this individual. The same modus operandi has been used just as effectively recently against the owner of a cash in transit company yet I heard no calls for these companies to cease business,

What do you think the stolen cash was used for?

Can you at least accept that peoples argument that their guns are locked away is invalid?

Trojan911

Relevant wrote: »

My point is that when the debate started peole used the argument similar to above that they are safely locked away. This clearly isn't a sufficient detterrent.

It goes to show the security was extremely tight, because if it wasn't then the perps wouldn't have waited for the occupiers to return, they would have just burgled the place, but they couldn't because the security was to tight.

An aggravated burglary was committed i.e. a gun was used to force the occupants to hand over the stolen firearms. The occupier had no choice in this matter.

So the stolen firearms were safely locked away.

rrpc

Relevant wrote: »

Can you at least accept that peoples argument that their guns are locked away is invalid?

It's not invalid. It removes the possibility of their firearms being stolen during a robbery where they weren't targeted as being firearms owners. Even the kind of scenario that occurred last night is far more unlikely with ordinary firearms owners because that fact is not advertised.

Unfortunately firearms delaers will always be a target because by the nature of their business there is widespread knowledge of the fact that they are dealers and they possess firearms.

Most robberies of firearms are oportunistic and the firearms were not the purpose of the robbery in the first place. In such situations, the owner who left a firearm unsecured is unlikely to get a licence again.

Sikamick

Post office worker in the UK has just been shot Dead,Sky News, Relevant, Cash is locked away in Safes in banks and post offices, it doesn't stop the criminals going after it.

Sikamick

delop

Trojan911 wrote: »

So the stolen firearms were safely locked away.

Thats neither here nor there, If there were no firearms (esp handguns) in private hands, this crime would not have happened. It seems that these ppl were targeted for that very reason...

So it looks like this incident has highlighted the dangers of private gun ownership and it will probably be the end of it. Id be surprised if any Sup. signs off on any renewals...

Its definitely in the public interest to sort this out quickly....

Sikamick

Quote rrpc : Even the kind of scenario that occurred last night is far more unlikely with ordinary firearms owners because that fact is not advertised.



rrpc I would have to disagree with you on that one, what about the license renewals envelopes, If undelivered please return to Garda HQ Firearms license section. This was a total breach of firearms license holders security.

Sikamick

rrpc

delop wrote: »

Thats neither here nor there, If there were no firearms (esp handguns) in private hands, this crime would not have happened. It seems that these ppl were targeted for that very reason...

So it looks like this incident has highlighted the dangers of private gun ownership and it will probably be the end of it. Id be surprised if any Sup. signs off on any renewals...

Its definitely in the public interest to sort this out quickly....

This is the same objectionable reasoning that portrayed rape victims as 'asking for it'.

As a society are we so depraved that our only answer to crime is to blame the victim?

Trojan911

Sikamick wrote: »

rrpc I would have to disagree with you on that one, what about the license renewals envelopes, If undelivered please return to Garda HQ Firearms license section. This was a total breach of firearms license holders security.Sikamick

That is something I have brought up a few years back. It only takes a corrupt postie to sell this type of info to criminal gangs.

Look at it this way, corrupt postie has your name, address and knows how many firearms you possess by the amount of envolopes he/she pops through your door.

Sikamick

delop wrote: »

Thats neither here nor there, If there were no firearms (esp handguns) in private hands, this crime would not have happened. It seems that these ppl were targeted for that very reason...

So it looks like this incident has highlighted the dangers of private gun ownership and it will probably be the end of it. Id be surprised if any Sup. signs off on any renewals...

Its definitely in the public interest to sort this out quickly....

If there were no firearms (esp handguns) in private hands, this crime would not have happened. It seems that these ppl were targeted for that very reason...

delop do you honestly believe that if every licensed firearm in this country was taken in there would be no more armed robberies no more killings no more drug dealing, get wide man.

Sikamick

PJ Hunter

Relevant wrote: »

My point is that when the debate started peole used the argument similar to above that they are safely locked away. This clearly isn't a sufficient detterrent.

Dear relevant, if you have been following this dabate, then recently you
will have read here on boards that a member of this forum sikamick has
informed us that, the minister has been offered the solution to all relevant consearns raised. Hopefully this answer (what ever it is) will be revealed when the fcp meets in full session.

Considering the country is flooded with illegal arms of all types why focus
on the one specific group of lawful citizens?

Can any punk in the roi if they so wish can click fingers and order up one or two glock take away within 5min?

If firearms are stored correctly as well as been "dismantled" in most cases not all ,the opportunistic thief ( on drugs) won't bother his ass why should they!

During the troubles, NI did not temporarily impound legal firearms.
Look to the rest of europe first before comparisons with the USA.
Ask to attend the next session of the fcp, listen to the debate
Reason should decide what will happen to licensed pistols not reaction to the latest killing.

rrpc

Trojan911 wrote: »

That is something I have brought up a few years back. It only takes a corrupt postie to sell this type of info to criminal gangs.

Look at it this way, corrupt postie has your name, address and knows how many firearms you possess by the amount of envolopes he/she pops through your door.

Corrupt posties can also rob cheques and other valuable items if they want. They handle parcels worth thousands every day. I think it's just as objectionable to imply that any officer of An Post would be involved in such criminality or that they would even bother to take the time to note who received what kind of letter at a praticular time of the year.

It's possible but unlikely and An Garda Siochana have apologised for the breach and promised that it will never happen again.

I think the matter should be left there.

delop

rrpc wrote: »

This is the same objectionable reasoning that portrayed rape victims as 'asking for it'.
As a society are we so depraved that our only answer to crime is to blame the victim?

Thats a bit melodramatic , but if it were true then are the rights of the Gun owner (victim) more important than the victims of future crimes that these stolen guns will support?

Sikamick wrote: »

delop do you honestly believe that if every licensed firearm in this country was taken in there would be no more armed robberies no more killings no more drug dealing, get wide man.

Of course not, but a fair % of criminals would have to go to more effort to get firearms, and getting them thru customs, paramilitaries or picking them up on a beach, is far more difficult and dangerous for them than following some guy home from a shooting range..

Sikamick

delop wrote: »

Thats a bit melodramatic , but if it were true then are the rights of the Gun owner (victim) more important than the victims of future crimes that these stolen guns will support?



Of course not, but a fair % of criminals would have to go to more effort to get firearms, and getting them thru customs, paramilitaries or picking them up on a beach, is far more difficult and dangerous for them than following some guy home from a shooting range..

_________________________________________________________________

delop here is an example of a crime and it was'nt with a gun, my friends mother a beautiful young woman run over by a scumbag in a stolen BMW, she lost a leg an eye and was left badly scared. Should we take all the cars of the streets.

Sikamick

Rew

Getting blackmarket guns is far less dangerous then angraveted burglary. If these guys are caught they face many more charges then the single charge of illeagle posession of a firearm. That is the reality of our justice system.

PJ Hunter

rrpc wrote: »

Corrupt posties can also rob cheques and other valuable items if they want. They handle parcels worth thousands every day. I think it's just as objectionable to imply that any officer of An Post would be involved in such criminality or that they would even bother to take the time to note who received what kind of letter at a praticular time of the year.

It's possible but unlikely and An Garda Siochana have apologised for the breach and promised that it will never happen again.

I think the matter should be left there.

No rrpc, never heard of this
apology when where? IF a small proportion of the total firearms renewals
got mistakenly put into the wrong post box. The whole street or block
of flats could have access to you personal firearm details if neighbor
loosened tongue.

This means we will never know, just like no one knows how
many licensed pistols of various types have actually been proved stolen by facts and figures because of the systems we have in place.

delop

Sikamick wrote: »

_________________________________________________________________

delop here is an example of a crime and it was'nt with a gun, my friends mother a beautiful young woman run over by a scumbag in a stolen BMW, she lost a leg an eye and was left badly scared. Should we take all the cars of the streets.

Sikamick

Im sorry to hear about your moms friend, Im sure there are plenty of vested interests who would like to ban cars, but cars provide a service to ppl sometimes an essential service, whereas pistols are a dangerous personal interest item that will not affect your quality of life if taken from you...

If our education system was far more evolved we might not have these problems, might not even need a speed limit on the roads if we all behaved but until we do we need the gov to make laws for everyone at the expense of a small minority in each case.

IMO there is no harm banning them for a few yes to see how it goes, and as for politicians trying to score political points by doing this. they will have scored a few for me, and I dont think im in the minority

TBH some of the melodramatic whining from some posters here, I hope they are not all concealed weapons owners and if they are it really scares me :-(

rrpc

delop wrote: »

Thats a bit melodramatic , but if it were true then are the rights of the Gun owner (victim) more important than the victims of future crimes that these stolen guns will support?

The same could be said of any item or items stolen. Cash can be used to buy guns and drugs, drugs being especially responsible for deaths to a far greater degree than guns ever have. According to Gardai, there were twenty murders carried out last year with firearms, the vast majority of which were gang related. Deaths due to drug abuse are far higher.

But all of this ignores the fact that it is criminal activity that is the problem. Removing licensed firearms will make not a whit of a difference to criminal activity involving guns and that's been proved all over Europe and especially in Britain where firearms offences have increased seven fold since handguns were banned.

And my point still remains that it is invidious in the case of crime to blame the victim.

Of course not, but a fair % of criminals would have to go to more effort to get firearms, and getting them thru customs, paramilitaries or picking them up on a beach, is far more difficult and dangerous for them than following some guy home from a shooting range..

Yet the estimate made by the Gardai was that in excess of 5,000 illegal firearms are present in the state and they have acknowledged that the real figure may well be twice that. They recovered 10 machine guns last year and the same in 2006, so there appears to be no shortage. The amount stolen from private hands in the same period was less than 5% of that figure and many of these were recovered.