Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

tonysopprano

Nice one Rovi. It is good to see that Paul Williams, who started as anti as you can get, but with a bit of people power and education, can be persuaded to change his mind and see us for what we are.

Trojan911

BryanL wrote: »

FRom todays Examiner.ie not good news on any level. The message i get is that criminals are out of control but the politicians get is that we again need to ban handguns. Gardaí hunt gang who stole guns from dealer’s home

Some good news here.

wrote:

Firearms recovered in Clondalkin search
on Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:57:33

Gardaí investigating the theft of firearms in a spate of burglaries across the country have uncovered a weapons cache in Dublin.

Officers from the South Central Crime Taskforce and Gardaí from Clondalkin found the weapons hidden on wasteground near Station Road, Clondalkin during a planned search last night.

It is understood five shotguns and two rifles and a quantity of ammunition were recovered during the search.

There were no arrests. Gardaí have linked the arms to recent burglaries.

rrpc

Trojan911 wrote: »

Some good news here.

That is good to hear. In fact from enquiries I've made, quite a few stolen firearms are recovered. This is usually because the thief wasn't really after firearms, took them on the spur of the moment, but in the cold light of day realised that they were more trouble than they were worth.

To make it doubly difficult for them, you should really have firearms disassembled in some way or another in order to make them unusable. Even a recoil spring taken from a semi-automatic is enough to make it unworkable.

Rew

rrpc wrote: »

Even a recoil spring taken from a semi-automatic is enough to make it unworkable.

Im pretty sure I could make a semi (pistol or rifle) work as a single shot without the spring. Might not be safe but it would work...

rrpc

Rew wrote: »

Im pretty sure I could make a semi (pistol or rifle) work as a single shot without the spring. Might not be safe but it would work...

Depends on the model. You'd certainly have to hold the action closed with your hand to make sure the firing pin engaged and it might hurt a bit when you fired. :eek:

sfakiaman

I take the barrel out of my semiauto and stash it in a safe place. In the very unlikely event of the pistol being stolen the criminal wouldn't even know it was missing.

rrpc

sfakiaman wrote: »

I take the barrel out of my semiauto and stash it in a safe place. In the very unlikely event of the pistol being stolen the criminal wouldn't even know it was missing.

This would generally be the same with a recoil spring. You don't want to be in a situation where they know something is missing and continue to look for it. It's a balance between making it safe and unnoticeable.

Rew

rrpc wrote: »

Depends on the model. You'd certainly have to hold the action closed with your hand to make sure the firing pin engaged and it might hurt a bit when you fired. :eek:

Like I said it might not be safe but it would certainly fire. The slide or the barrel would be alot better then the spring.

Rovi

A couple of interesting recent items in the Irish Independent:

Press Clippings thread post #97
"Community 'is key to winning war on gangs'"
Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy (the man who sat before the Dail Public Accounts Committee late last year and displayed to all the world his ignorance of the legislation at his disposal) tells Tom Brady (Irish Independent Security Editor) that

he believed the ban on handguns would help prevent Irish society from developing an entrenched gun culture.

...and Press Clippings thread post #98
"Tip-off leads officers to weapons 'stolen by Traveller gangs'"
The article (again by Tom Brady) concludes with this little gem:

Over the past four years, 1,267 legally held firearms, including 31 handguns, have been stolen and only 373 recovered.

Since the setting up of the garda's anti-crime initiative, Operation Anvil, in late 2005, more than 1,200 stolen firearms have been recovered in Dublin and almost 1,000 in the rest of the country.

Can someone who knows how to do big hard sums tell me how to crunch the first set of numbers to come up with the second?


Looking back through the clippings archive, Mr. Brady seems to be very fond of slipping in the Minister's/DOJ's statistics (whichever version is in favour at the time) at every opportunity, doesn't he?

bunny shooter

"Can someone who knows how to do big hard sums tell me how to crunch the first set of numbers to come up with the second?......."

I started a new thread on this Didn't see this till I had

rrpc

Well, I'd hazard a guess that they are not all stolen firearms. I'd go further and say that they are 'recovered' firearms which actually means firearms taken from criminals, found in ditches and removed from people who didn't know they needed licences.

According to the Garda reports, in 2005 they seized/recovered 939, in 2006 it was 1002 and in 2007 it was 886.

These seem to be the most likely sources of the figures quoted above.

Like other newspaper articles, it's never about duplicity but always about stupidity.

rrpc

Just for the purposes of statistical analysis, I'm posting the numbers of pistols and revolvers 'recovered' in the years leading up to the first pistol licences being issued and a few years afterwards.

That way, any journalist who's too busy to look it up will have it all in a nice little table ready to go to print.

Year|Pistols|Revolvers|Total
1999|75|46|121
2000|55|40|95
2001|27|26|53
2002|27|26|53*
2003|45|23|68
2004|70|21|91
2005|60|34|94
2006|||157**
2007||28|?***


Source - Garda Annual Reports.

* The figures for 2001 and 2002 were suspiciously similar for a number of the headings but dissimilar in others. The first five or six (including shotguns which number in hundreds) were exactly the same.

** The figures for 2006 were not split. As well as that the columns weren't totalled so I had to do that for them and it wasn't done properly for other firearms either.

*** Pistols were lumped in with airguns in 2007, so there's no way of knowing what the real figure was. The total was 293, the corresponding figure for 2006 was 197 (I had to total that as well ), and for 2005 was 314.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

.................Like other newspaper articles, it's never about duplicity but always about stupidity.

The average reader might not know that :rolleyes:

BornToKill

Rovi wrote: »

Can someone who knows how to do big hard sums tell me how to crunch the first set of numbers to come up with the second?

I imagine that it means of the 1,267 stolen in the last four years 373 of those have so far been recovered.

The two statements aren't necessarily contradictory but you'd have to check the PQ thread for the exact wording. Putting them together like that is jarring, though.

Jacobo

rrpc wrote: »

** The figures for 2006 were not split. As well as that the columns weren't totalled so I had to do that for them and it wasn't done properly for other firearms either.

If it's the number of firearms seized in 2006, the report has (in page 18) 82 revolvers (!) and 356 "pistols/airguns".

Last month I made this table, also from data in the Garda annual reports:

Year | Pistols | Airguns | Pistols/airguns | Revolvers | Shotguns | Rifles
2007 | | | 293 | 28 | 206 | 59
2006 | | | 356 | 82 | 231 | 125
2005 | 60 | 314 | | 34 | 216 | 69
2004 | 70 | 49 | | 21 | 358 | 164
2003 | 45 | 168 | | 23 | 270 | 124
2002 | 27 | 246 | | 26 | 230 | 68
2001 | 27 | 246 | | 26 | 230 | 68
2000 | 55 | 295 | | 40 | 249 | 86
1999 | 75 | 215 | | 46 | 234 | 93

ivanthehunter

Well thank god some one stepped in to stop these gun nuts;)

ItalianStallion

The right to defend one's self and peoperty with deadly force is a human right. In a civilized nation, people with a clear history should be able to purchase handguns. There is always the fear that they might fall into the wrong hands, but banning them to keep them away from the wrong hands will only enshure that the wrong hands are all that posses them.

Sparks

In Ireland, it is not a right to own a firearm, and firearm licences are not granted for the purpose of self-defence or defence of property (in extremis, if you were to use one, that is legal, but preparing for that end is not).

As to whether or not it is a human right, that's a point noone can agree upon.

Either way, this is discussion of RKBA stuff, and as such is verboten in this forum. Take it to Politics, if you wish to discuss it further.

shqipshume

IRLConor wrote: »

Lots of kinds. Some look nothing like handguns as you'd know them from TV. Some are the handguns you'd see in movies. There are lots of different shooting sports and they all have different rules about what firearms are allowed.

Here are a few examples of handguns which have been used in competitive target shooting in Ireland over the last few years:

Baikal (.177 air pistol)


Pardini (.22lr):


Glock (9mm):




I don't know quite what you're getting at here. If you mean "You shouldn't be able to own a handgun unless you're a member of a club and don't have a criminal record" then you're describing the situation as it stands right now.



There are approximately 220,000 firearms legally held in this country. All the serial numbers are on file, but they have not all been ballistic tested. This is for several reasons: it would cost a lot, it would be a massive administration headache, there's no clear advantage (apparently ballistic test databases have a poor record when implemented in other countries) and most importantly a huge proportion of the firearms in the country (about 170,000 I think) are shotguns which I presume can't be ballistic tested (at least not in the way you'd see on CSI ).



Well, that ends up punishing a lot of innocent people. I can't demonstrate a need for the firearm I have a certificate for since I don't have to compete as a target shooter. Essentially you'd be restricting the firearms to people who need them to kill animals.

If you assume that half the shotguns, half the rifles and none of the handguns in the country are for killing animals (I don't know what the breakdown is, I wouldn't be surprised if more than half were for hunting) then you're still going to end up with over 100,000 legally held firearms. All of them will need to be shot on a range occasionally to ensure they're zeroed and to provide the users with some training, so I can't see any clear advantage to be had by removing firearms that are only used for target shooting.

I never said they should remove them all!
You are very educated on your guns.
What kind of animals are they killing in Dublin and cork city and Limerick etc.. ?
What would be your answer then to the constant deaths and whats it two three in space of two days how many since December.
It needs to be stopped before kids start getting their hands on them and shouting each other.Do you want it like USA?
Ireland when it was apart of the way if life had guns children were taught to handle them correctly and respect fire arms.Now they don't know nothing about them not same.
How would you suggest they solve the problem and try stamp it out or control those who shouldn't have them.
ofc lets face it they aren't going to be able to stop them all.But surely there is a solution as Ireland isn't very big and they know who's who!

shqipshume

Meyer wrote: »

Would you ban cigarettes? Most people that want them don't really need them... and wanting them is hardly an excuse given that it's not that hard to give them up, and they also kill far more people the world over than handguns ever will :eek:.

Oh please you choose to smoke yourself.When someone pulls out a gun and shoots someone that wasn't their choice to be shot :rolleyes:
And yes i would ban them altogether i smoke and i hate them And if they banned them from the world i would be so freakin happy

Sparks

shqipshume wrote: »

I never said they should remove them all!
You are very educated on your guns.

Good thing in the moderator of the shooting forum, methinks...

What kind of animals are they killing in Dublin and cork city and Limerick etc.. ?

Paper ones in Dublin, none in the others - but folks who shoot targets have to live somewhere...

What would be your answer then to the constant deaths and whats it two three in space of two days how many since December.

More funding and training for Gardai to enforce the already existing laws please.

It needs to be stopped before kids start getting their hands on them and shouting each other.Do you want it like USA?

Nope, but we're nowhere near there at all, we're closer to berlin than boston on that one.

coolagad

hi folks, looking at this debate from afar. am a paddy living in the caribbean. last year here in jamaica there was 1700 murders. its also extermely hard to get a hand gun license with only a few issued each year. banning legally held handguns has not contributed to any reduction in crime. in fact if you ask the locals since the introduction of stiffer criteria to get licenses murder has shot through the roof cos the crims know that no-one is armed except them and the cops...who are just as likely to shoot ya!

IRLConor

shqipshume wrote: »

What kind of animals are they killing in Dublin and cork city and Limerick etc.. ?

Some people live in the city/suburbs and hunt in the country. The firearms would be registered in the city. My next door neighbour when I was growing up had a shotgun.

shqipshume wrote: »

What would be your answer then to the constant deaths and whats it two three in space of two days how many since December.

There are loads of things that would combat violent crime and have a much higher impact than a ban on legally held firearms:

• More, better trained Gardai. At the very least, more non-Gardai for the paperwork to get the Gardai out of the stations and onto the streets.
• Changes in the bail laws & policies so that bail is not granted and/or is higher for serious crimes. The scumbag who committed the murder in East Wall was released on €2000 bail! Bail should not be granted for murder cases except in extremely exceptional circumstances.
• An end to automatic remission. Convicted criminals should only be granted remission on a case-by-case basis and the decision should be conditional on both flawless behaviour in prison and an assessment that they're highly unlikely to re-offend.
• More funding for the customs & Gardai to allow them to search more cargo containers and vehicles for drugs and illegal firearms coming into the country.
• Since the previous points would require it, more prison places so that those convicted could serve their full terms.
• A comprehensive program to tackle the social conditions that are the source of crime. This would cover not just poverty-reduction and education in deprived areas but also a society-wide approach to reducing drug consumption across the board.

shqipshume wrote: »

It needs to be stopped before kids start getting their hands on them and shouting each other.

The kids are already getting their hands on firearms. The vast majority of them are not coming from legitimate sources though, criminals aren't short of firearms.

shqipshume wrote: »

Do you want it like USA?

We are nothing like the USA when it comes to firearms. The laws and the cultural attitudes to firearms bear little or no resemblance to each other and don't show any signs of changing.

PJ Hunter

IRLConor wrote: »

Some people live in the city/suburbs and hunt in the country. The firearms would be registered in the city. My next door neighbour when I was growing up had a shotgun.



There are loads of things that would combat violent crime and have a much higher impact than a ban on legally held firearms:

• More, better trained Gardai. At the very least, more non-Gardai for the paperwork to get the Gardai out of the stations and onto the streets.
• Changes in the bail laws & policies so that bail is not granted and/or is higher for serious crimes. The scumbag who committed the murder in East Wall was released on €2000 bail! Bail should not be granted for murder cases except in extremely exceptional circumstances.
• An end to automatic remission. Convicted criminals should only be granted remission on a case-by-case basis and the decision should be conditional on both flawless behaviour in prison and an assessment that they're highly unlikely to re-offend.
• More funding for the customs & Gardai to allow them to search more cargo containers and vehicles for drugs and illegal firearms coming into the country.
• Since the previous points would require it, more prison places so that those convicted could serve their full terms.
• A comprehensive program to tackle the social conditions that are the source of crime. This would cover not just poverty-reduction and education in deprived areas but also a society-wide approach to reducing drug consumption across the board.

The kids are already getting their hands on firearms. The vast majority of them are not coming from legitimate sources though, criminals aren't short of firearms.



We are nothing like the USA when it comes to firearms. The laws and the cultural attitudes to firearms bear little or no resemblance to each other and don't show any signs of changing.

"more prison places so that those convicted could serve their full terms".
[/quote IRL]

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is it two prison-officers per prisoner.
With full terms served, will this not need a lot of extra funding to pay for all the extra officers needed. Have any money left in the coffers.

IRLConor

PJ Hunter wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is it two prison-officers per prisoner.
With full terms served, will this not need a lot of extra funding to pay for all the extra officers needed. Have any money left in the coffers.

I have no idea what the prison officer to prisoner ratio is but yes, more prison officers would probably be needed if more prison places are to be created.

Arguably, hiring more prison officers could save money as it stands. I can't remember the exact figures for the overtime bill but last time I saw it, it was huge. If those hours had been covered by POs on normal time they'd surely cost less, no?

At the end of the day though, I think that we fundamentally can't afford not to get tougher with our convicted criminals. The last figure I saw is that it costs €90,000/year to keep a criminal locked up. The last figure I saw for the average 1 year re-offending rate was 27.4%. If the total cost to the state of investigating and prosecuting those offences plus the knock-on societal costs of exceeds about €330k per, then it makes sense to keep the criminals in prison for an extra year of their sentence.

Anyhow, I think I've dragged this off-topic too far already. If people would like to continue, let me know and I'll split this off into another thread and bounce it to a more appropriate forum.

Sikamick

To Read or Comment please go to this Link.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055468952&highlight=Shooting+ban

Sikamick

cybershooters

Relevant wrote: »

Does this put the agrument about sport pistols beng stolen to bed?

Not really because you can't tell anything from a media report, I remember when every little thing to do with firearms was being amplified in the press after Dunblane because there's nothing the media like more than to whip up hysteria. It says: "including rifles and pistols", which tells you nothing, they could be antiques. And it's not an argument for banning guns anyway, you could ban anything on the basis it might be stolen and misused by criminals. At best it's an argument for better security, because let's face it, the Govt. isn't going to ban all guns, so it's a moot point.

One could make the simple counterargument that RFDs be allowed to own a gun for self-defence, clearly they're likely to know how to use it. That would be a deterrent to theft.

Anyway, moaning on about this on some obscure part of the internet is pointless, I hope you're all writing and visiting your TDs and Senators.

Sparks

some obscure part of the internet

Not quite that obscure

cybershooters

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

"Before Ireland turns into the USA"..So BORED of hearing this crap from ministers,journalists and others!!!:mad: Wake UP FFS!!

Yeah, had the same BS after Dunblane. In point of fact, the national statistics for the US indicate a lower rate of crime in the US except for murder and rape than England & Wales. You are far more likely to be mugged or burgled, etc. in the UK.

From a standpoint of criminology it's more sensible to compare Ireland with Norway. Norway has much less restrictive gun laws and they do not have a higher rate of crime.

If you're going to compare with the US you'd have to pick somewhere with similar demographics like Vermont or New Hampshire.

But like I said above, all the media cares about is whipping up hysteria to sell a few newspapers.

Relevant

cybershooters wrote: »

Yeah, had the same BS after Dunblane. In point of fact, the national statistics for the US indicate a lower rate of crime in the US except for murder and rape than England & Wales. You are far more likely to be mugged or burgled, etc. in the UK.

But surely that means that if murders are higher it is down to gun availability