Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

cybershooters

shqipshume wrote: »

Do you want it like USA?

First of all this is a perception based on watching TV, not reality. If you're worried about getting mugged or assaulted by a stranger, it's more likely to happen in many European cities than US ones.

Second of all it's such an absurd statement, there are estimated to be something like 70 million handguns legally owned in the US. In the Republic there are a few thousand, less than 4,000. There are more than that in Northern Ireland (about 12,000).

More handguns are sold in a slow afternoon in the US than are legally possessed in the ROI.

It wasn't me!

Relevant wrote: »

But surely that means that if murders are higher it is down to gun availability

No, there's no demonstrable connection.

Sparks

Relevant wrote: »

But surely that means that if murders are higher it is down to gun availability

If the National Academy of Sciences doesn't think there's evidence to support or disprove that, I have to agree with them...

cybershooters

Relevant wrote: »

But surely that means that if murders are higher it is down to gun availability

Well if you want to get into the nuts and bolts of it, there is general consensus that a higher rate of legal gun ownership leads to higher rates of firearm-related suicide. However it's not 100% clear that it leads to higher rates of suicide overall. The Swiss says it does, but there was a study in Australia that seemed to indicate a substitution effect.

However the reality is that the places in the US that have the highest rates of firearm-related homicide tend to be the places with the toughest gun laws. Washington DC and Chicago have tougher gun laws than Ireland does, but their murder rates are fantastically higher. Illinois for example has a licensing system, and Chicago banned handguns in 1982.

When people say it's down to gun availability it's far too simplistic and "gun control" is a bit of a scapegoat, imo. Areas of DC and Chicago, Philadelphia are subject to far higher rates of poverty than anywhere in western Europe, there is no safety net as Europeans generally know it. No healthcare, crappy schools etc. Penal system makes no real attempt at rehabilitation. In the US there is a much wider disparity between rich and poor than exists in Ireland.

If you take the example of Brazil for example, which probably has the widest gap between rich and poor in the world, they have an enormously high rate of firearm-related crime, but yet they have really tough gun laws. Handguns more powerful than .38 Special and rifles more powerful than .357 Magnum have been banned since the mid-70s, but people get shot with 9mm pistols and assault rifles every single day.

The problems that lead to crime are more complex than the availability of firearms, as has been shown in NI over the last few days, they didn't walk into a shop and buy automatic rifles.

If you want to stop crime, you have to solve the problems that lead to crime being committed. Possession of firearms for use in a crime is a symptom of crime, not a cause of it. Does anyone really believe the rates of crime in places like Dublin and Limerick will go down if a few thousand legally owned handguns are banned? (Actually, I just looked it up - 1,800).

MikeEve

I'm sorry I haven't replied earlier to a post asking how much the compensation scheme in England Wales & Scotland cost when pistols were banned here - I've been away, and I've only just got the reply from the government.

I think my reply may be of some help.....

"NINETY SEVEN MILLION POUNDS paid out - but the costs in police time in administering the scheme, costs to the Home Office in preparing the scheme, and the cost to the sport on top of that figure have not been - and probably can't be quantified.

The FACT is that this money was spent and a sport destroyed to "take guns off the streets." (see Home Office press release - http://psa.bizhosting.com/Interesting.html )

The Government said about the theft of pistols -

"A total ban reduces this risk and prevents legally held handguns falling into the wrong hands."

Yet since that time MORE pistols have been stolen than before - and MORE people than before have been killed and injured by the ILLEGAL use of handguns.

It shows that the problem did not relate to legally-held guns then - and it still doesn't today."

I hope this may be of some small use to you all - good luck !

Trojan911

MikeEve wrote: »

I hope this may be of some small use to you all - good luck !

Cheers for that, the issues of banning seem to on hold here at the moment, however, certain implementations apparently have been put in place in the interim.

MikeEve

the issues of banning seem to on hold here at the moment

.... and I'm sure the actions of many members of this board will have had some influence - great stuff !

wyk

Relevant wrote: »

But surely that means that if murders are higher it is down to gun availability

Murders are higher inthe States than in the UK and Ireland, but only by a small fraction. Your chances of being murdered in Gasgow are .0057 % per year. Belfast is .005%, Amsterdam is .008% and Lisbon at .01%. Glasgows.0057% is about the average for the US. If you take specific cities into context, Austin Texas is at .004%, Los Angeles at .01%, San Diego, .005%, San Jose .004%. Cities most Americans avoid, like St Louis Missouri and Baltimore Maryland/Washington DC are in the .04% range.

London Comes in at .0028%, the exact same rate that Arlington, Texas (a large suburb of Dallas) comes in at. In London, you can not carry a knife, and handguns are banned. In order to own any sort of firearm for hunting or sporting purposes, you must join a club and jump though a considerable amount of hoops. In Arlington, TX, anyone over the age of 21 can go to a gun shop and walk out with whatever firearm they so please that day as long as the their name is not on an FBI list for being a felon. A Glock 9mm pistol is usually about $500 out the door. If you spend a weekend in a Concealed Carry Handgun class(which covers all laws regarding use of force, and knowledge of your firearm and use, and runs about $140), you may then be granted a license to carry a handgun concealed to protect yourself and your loved ones in public. While traveling, any Texan or a visitor of Texas who may legally own a gun is allowed to have a firearm in their vehicle for protection or sporting purposes without the need of a permit. Texas has the highest rate of gun ownership per capita in the United States, and comes in just under Glasgow's murder rate. Utah have even less strict gun laws(permits are more easily granted), and also have a high rate of gun ownership, and their murder statewide is below that of the UK's.

Availability of guns is only a small part of the picture. Drugs, gangs, opportunity, education, economiy, etc all play their parts.

Having said that, it looks like Germany's murder rate just took a spike:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090311/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_school_attack
WYK

Sparks

...and now we're standing just over the line into RKBA territory.
Back on topic please folks.

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

...and now we're standing just over the line into RKBA territory.
Back on topic please folks.

I don't think so Sparks. He was using the fact that availability and RTKBA in the states doesn't contribute to violent crime, and is indicating that there's no demonstrable connection one way or the other, as far as I can see.

Sparks

If that's not actually over the line IWM, it's standing on it and leaning heavily...

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

If that's not actually over the line IWM, it's standing on it and leaning heavily...

I would disagree there Sparks, as it's not advocating it or actively discussing it, and I think it was a relevant point with regard to the correlation between violent crime and legal gun ownership. However, there's no sense dragging the thread off in a tangent about it.

chem

Was talking to my super today. He cant grant me a pistol licence. Directions from Minister Ahern. He told me his hands are tied. No pistol licences to be granted here in any shape make or form unless you are a member of an olympic training club. His words, not mine :mad:

Sparks

The Minister doesn't have that authority chem. He can ask but it's the Super's decision by law.

chem

Sparks wrote: »

The Minister doesn't have that authority chem. He can ask but it's the Super's decision by law.

Maybe in a perfect world sparks. But here in Ireland it works slighetly different;)

Trojan911

Sparks wrote: »

The Minister doesn't have that authority chem. He can ask but it's the Super's decision by law.

So either the Super is ignorant of this fact or he is pulling Chems (& others) chain?

Sparks

Trojan911 wrote: »

So either the Super is ignorant of this fact or he is pulling Chems & others chains?

I was implying the latter; this sounds very much to me like the "It's just held up in the Park" line we hear so much about.

Chem, if he won't grant for that reason, get it in writing, it'll never hold up even in a DC.

chem

Trojan911 wrote: »

So either the Super is ignorant of this fact or he is pulling Chems (& others) chain?

I had print outs of the ministers statments. I highlighted the part where the minister said new pistol licences would not be renewed after this sep and explained I would be exporting it to NI as a club gun up there.

But he said minister Ahern had givin direct instructions not to issue any more pistol licences.

So who is telling fibs

chem

Sparks wrote: »

Chem, if he won't grant for that reason, get it in writing, it'll never hold up even in a DC.

Not much point in going to court now! chances are the law will be in place before it gets around to a court date.:rolleyes:

Trojan911

chem wrote: »

So who is telling fibs

I would go along the line Sparks suggested & get it in writing from the Super (and also ask the Super to include his quote that the Minister apparently made) & then write to the Minister asking him if this is correct. I would also contact the NARGC & run it by them.

Then sit back and wait..... and wait..... and wait.....

wrote:

Not much point in going to court now! chances are the law will be in place before it gets around to a court date.

And that's exactly why the Gardai get away with so much. Because very few bother.......

Sparks

Well Chem, if he has a letter from the Minister it's a bad sign for everyone, not just pistol shooters because the only way such a letter could have legal force is if the courts agreed with the opinion that Dunne v Donoghue has been overruled by Section 43 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006.

Which would mean the Super is no longer the Persona Designata for licencing.

Which would mean that the courts are now the final arbiter of who gets licenced in this state for a firearm.

Of course, that would also mean that the Minister doesn't have the authority to ban the licencing of firearms by writing to the Superintendents; he'd have to write to the District Court Judges and they wouldn't be likely to react well to that approach - just look at their stance on mandatory sentencing to get an inkling of how it'd go.

Of course, all this is ignoring the point that the Super said the letter is from the Minister; and the Minister would not write to the Super, but to the Commissioner.

So frankly I think your Super was just being cheeky and I'd go get it in writing from him.

foxhunter

There is some sort of letter doing the rounds because my local sergeant told me last friday evening that he had recieved a letter telling him that no more pistol licences were to be processed.
So someone knows something but they're not lettin on.

Sparks

DoJ have confirmed that the Minister would not and did not write a letter to the Superintendents btw, as said above.

Meyer

Sparks wrote: »

DoJ have confirmed that the Minister would not and did not write a letter to the Superintendents btw, as said above.

A friend of mine was granted a licence, only to have it held back when he went looking for his article 7. The reason his Super gave was that a new order had been issued from Headquarters to not grant anymore pistol licences.

Sparks

The Minister can't give that order Meyer; neither can headquarters. Not legally, at any stretch.

Meyer

Sparks wrote: »

The Minister can't give that order Meyer; neither can headquarters. Not legally, at any stretch.

Well the bottom line is no pistol for my mate, he is looking into the legality of it all, but the Super simply won't give him his licence a licence as I pointed out that was issued by the Super who is now refusing to give him a signed stamped piece of paper that he already issued :eek:

Sparks

See, here's the thing Meyer:
1) The Minister can't order a Superintendent about, he has no legal right to issue orders to a Garda like that.
2) The Minister might get the Commissioner to give an order to a Super about other things, but not about this without using article 43 of the CJA2006 to overturn Dunne v Donoghue's ruling that the Super is the persona designata, which would unleash a boatload of crap over everyone in the community, the gardai, the DoJ and the judiciary...
3) The Super, having granted the licence, may not legally withhold the article 7, no more than he could legally withhold the europass. The Super would have to withdraw the licence to do so, which he would have no grounds for.
4) This is anonymous third-hand hearsay we're arguing over

Look seriously, if so many folks are running into this, can someone please ask their Super what the hell is in this letter if it exists? Thanks...

bunny shooter

Sparks are you so gullable to believe that the commissioner doesn't issue directives to the supers? Just because he's not suppose to and just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist.

A few years ago I was shown an official document in relation to pistols that I didn't see which I doubt existed either

Sparks

BS, let me put it this way - it's not about being gullable, it's about legal rights, established in the supreme court, who take a very dim view of members of the Gardai ignoring their rulings.

On top of which, as I said, this is all third-person hearsay for the moment. Lets get some proof in first.

bunny shooter

Ya sure maybe we could ask the Super in question for a photocopy .....................