Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

Trojan911

Rew wrote: »

Dunblane was a failing of the UK Police not of firearms law. They had every opertunity to prevent the tragedy as I understand it.

Scottish police revoked his licence, however he appealed in court & had it overturned, as there was a lack of evidence to substanciate the reasons for the revokation, is my understanding of it.

Rew wrote: »

Gun crime in the UK has has gotten much much worse desipte an armed police force and a complete ban on handguns.

When did the UK Police Service become armed?

Sparks

What part of "cut this stuff out" do people have a problem understanding? Posts on this internecine spat deleted.

Manic Moran

BryanL wrote: »

So there is going to be "CAP" ON LICENCES?

I don't see how , "first come first served" is a anyway to run a gun policy!
bryan

It's called grandfathering, and has a horrible record of success. We're familiar with the concept in the US. It garners support from current owners who only care about themselves because they're not going to lose anything. It's still a ban, and it still will kill the sport eventually as the 'grandfathered' people die off and eventually only one or two shooters will be left to use all the ranges in the country.

NTM

.270 remington

i wonder what all the range owners are going to .many clubs have invested
a lot of money to get garda/doj approval

.270 remington

.270 remington wrote: »

i wonder what all the range owners are going to .many clubs have invested
a lot of money to get garda/doj approval

Surely they should be entitled to some form of compensation - though it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't. Which is ridiculous in itself.

I'm just after trawling through the thread on this in the politics section, it's heartening to read that there is a section of the public (by and large) that see this proposed ban for what it is - blatant smoke screening by the government.

cybershooters

Trojan911 wrote: »

Scottish police revoked his licence, however he appealed in court & had it overturned, as there was a lack of evidence to substanciate the reasons for the revokation, is my understanding of it.

Your understanding is wrong, a Det Sgt wrote a report recommending that his FAC be revoked, but the Deputy Chief Constable refused to do so because Hamilton hadn't been convicted of anything.

Lord Cullen pointed this out as one of the main factors that allowed Thomas Hamilton to do what he did, because the DCC had clearly not understood section 27 of the Firearms Act 1968, which does not require a person to have been convicted to be unfit to hold an FAC. Also he misunderstood guidance from the Scottish Office.

Section 27 was amended to make it clearer, however McMurdo was basically forced to resign from his job with HMIC after the report was published.

meathshooter

hopefully it will just be a restricted list which is not a total ban and If you can show legit reasons, eg club membership,regular pratice,comps ect hopfully you will be alright,as a ban will have no effect whatsoever on illegal
gun crime .what alarms me is that this shower of misinformed gob****es are runing the country

cybershooters

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely they should be entitled to some form of compensation - though it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't. Which is ridiculous in itself.

Range owners received no compensation in GB, except for guns, parts and ammunition. Which was rather amusing I have to say because I knew a guy in London who literally had a basement full of .38 Special brass and bought himself a new car with the compensation money.

I find the Irish DOJ press release rather intriguing because if you read it carefully what it appears to say is:

(a) no new licenses, except for a handful of elite shooters who stand a chance of competing at the Olympics;
(b) existing FAC holders will be able to renew them under severe new conditions, which seems to be a "grandfather" clause.

What those severe new conditions may be is really the interesting bit, because let's face it, it's already pretty severe. Have to keep them locked up at clubs maybe? Or disassembled with a part kept at a club? €1,000 renewal fee?

Hard to think what it could be really, because you've already got it.

Reading between the lines it also seems to say that if you apply for a new FAC right now they're going to encourage the Gardaí not to grant it, so you can't rush out and apply for one in the hope you can meet whatever these new conditions may be.

Red Renard

Manic Moran wrote: »

It's called grandfathering, and has a horrible record of success. We're familiar with the concept in the US. It garners support from current owners who only care about themselves because they're not going to lose anything. It's still a ban, and it still will kill the sport eventually as the 'grandfathered' people die off and eventually only one or two shooters will be left to use all the ranges in the country.

NTM

Z /class.:eek:

Manic Moran

What those severe new conditions may be is really the interesting bit, because let's face it, it's already pretty severe. Have to keep them locked up at clubs maybe? Or disassembled with a part kept at a club? €1,000 renewal fee?

It's academic. Even if they did not add any new restrictions, a prohibition on the granting of new permits will kill the sport, as there would be no opportunities for new blood to enter. For example:

(a) no new licenses, except for a handful of elite shooters who stand a chance of competing at the Olympics;

So how does one become an elite shooter? They start as a new shooter, who gets better with practise. If they're only granting permits to existing elite shooters, where are the next generation going to come from?

People have to look at the longer term beyond "Can I still keep my pistol." Otherwise you'll find your pistol license revoked even if you have a security system like Ft Knox's because you have nowhere to shoot it as the ranges close due to a drying up of people with the pistols to use them.

NTM

Sparks

Manic Moran wrote: »

So how does one become an elite shooter? They start as a new shooter, who gets better with practise. If they're only granting permits to existing elite shooters, where are the next generation going to come from?

Agreed - although a stable of club firearms would be of use here, that's how we managed it with air rifle for years.

meathshooter

is there any legal action the ngb,s can take to stop this

chem

Anyone else notice, the lack of interest, in the pistol ban by any of the press yesterday? Notting in the TV news or radio!

Did the whole thing fizzly out for the government? Did the move not make as big a PR stunt as they hoped?

Manic Moran

Sparks wrote: »

Agreed - although a stable of club firearms would be of use here, that's how we managed it with air rifle for years.

Where would they be kept? You go back to the same problem of having a centralised shopping cart for burglars.

NTM

tonysopprano

Following on from yesterdays “de facto” ban on pistols , could you please read the items below and comment on them.

The minister did not announce an instant ban on pistols, because he would have to compensatethe owners of pistols, and the country is broke.

The minister announced that come renewal next August, any pistol owner will have to comply with
new stringent security measures (probably something like a strongroom or underground bunker which ordinary Joe Soap will not be able to comply with. This means that Joe Soap is in breach of
his Firearms Cert and his pistol will be seized with no compensation or he can TRY to sell it to a dealer
who cannot resell it, so he loses his investment

Is this any way to treat a citizens of this country, who, by virtue of holding a Firearms Certificate for a
pistol, are already deemed to be the most law abiding and upstanding members of the communityand have already been cleared by the Gardai to the highest security level, and to add insult to injury,
by a sly and roundabout way, not compensating them for the many thousands of Euro spent complying
with all conditions of the Firearms Act

dresden8

Tony

They're sh1ts.

Accept it and move on. Just remember at the hopefully soon next election.

lykoris

appears the Irish media are incapable of presenting an objective article.

I have not seen any articles that illustrate how the UK handgun ban has spectacularly failed.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2317307.ece


There is no link between "licensed" pistol shooters and crime - every knowledgeable shooter knows this but the public is incapable of making that differentiation.

Licensed means screening/no criminal record/medical history examined/pistol stored in an approved gun safe/only transports 'unloaded' and ammo kept separate to and from a registered firearms range.

Criminals can get a pistol for EUR70-100 on the streets, there are thousands of them flowing in from eastern europe to the UK and Ireland.....

banning licensed pistol holders will have literally no impact on criminal access to guns - the two are completely unrelated.

This weekend I'll be happily shooting a 9mm, a .40 S&W and a .45ACP, thankfully there is no chance of that happening in Luxembourg. We can also buy whatever we want a .50bmg .338lapua to a 9mm MP5 SD (silenced version)....surprisingly enough this isn't the WILD WILD WEST as we are all 'licensed' firearms holders that like our Irish equivalent undergo stringent screening.

Sad day for the ROI

Sparks

Manic Moran wrote: »

Where would they be kept? You go back to the same problem of having a centralised shopping cart for burglars.

I wasn't saying it was perfect MM, just that if we get stuck in this situation, we'll find some way to cope.

chem wrote: »

Anyone else notice, the lack of interest, in the pistol ban by any of the press yesterday? Notting in the TV news or radio!
Did the whole thing fizzly out for the government? Did the move not make as big a PR stunt as they hoped?

There's an interesting point in there. What hit the press yesterday was a press release. Not a bill. There's no bill on oireachtas.ie, there's no announced legislation, there's just a statement of intent.

Now, the next step is the telling one. If the Minister (through the DoJ) goes to the FCP and says "right lads, let's have a chat about this" then that's one thing. And probably the best we can hope for, barring a snap general election that sees a total change in government. But that's not too likely without some sort of economic disaster that has us all more worried about things other than firearms (like, oh I don't know, our morgages and food bills and finding a new job and such). If it goes that way, then yesterday was the Minister being pressured by the media and responding to the media. Rude, but not fatal.

Of course, if it doesn't go that way, well. That's a whole other kettle of fish.

jwshooter

where are the mods

Sparks

Busy banning trolls and deleting troll posts. Please folks, don't feed them. Thanks to those who hit the report button instead.

Manic Moran

I wasn't saying it was perfect MM, just that if we get stuck in this situation, we'll find some way to cope.

Dude! Don't publicly go about saying how you might find ways to cope! Then people won't think there's an issue with whatever new restrictions they want to put on things! "Ah, sure, look, they can do this. What are they whinging about?"

NTM

Blazer

Even Joe Soap knows this latest crap is just a PR stunt for the Gov..act like they're doing something about the gun shootings while spending nothing.
Fact is the scumbags in Limerick was trying to order RPGS, AK47s and Uzis a few months ago illegally.
Will this law stop all the shootings in Ireland? Zero chance.
Only way is to increase Gardai funding and powers and start cracking down heavily on the gangs..handing out life sentences etc, 15+years for drug smuggling, zero tolerance basically on anyone with gang affeliation.
Will the Governmant do this? Zero chance again.

paul1972

its not just limerick .......its all over and its the people buying the **** that are fueling the problem and i mean the recreational drug users those with money to play with its their money that is paying for all the murder and madness

jwshooter

how many tons of drugs come into this country every year .it must be huge . the guys shipping the drugs from x to ireland are armed to the teeth once there load of drugs onto the boat ,truck, or plane they through there weapons it with the drugs and walk away clean , the weapons are a tip for the drug bosses they sell them off to there pushers and partners in crime .taking our firearms will do noting only make a poor excuse of a government temporary look good ,we can fall out with each other and talk about in hear till the cows come home its not going to resolve it.election next your might be a good place to start ,what are the shooting bodys doing .

lykoris

paul1972 wrote: »

its not just limerick .......its all over and its the people buying the **** that are fueling the problem and i mean the recreational drug users those with money to play with its their money that is paying for all the murder and madness

and everything you mention has absolutely nothing to do with licensed shooters who participate in pistol shooting.

It is not by taking away a pistol from a "law abiding licensed citizen with no criminal record" that the Irish govt. will make an impact on "crime related gun shootings." Criminals have easy access to black market firearms from Eastern Europe.

The UK handgun ban is blatant proof of this fact.

Sparks

Wrote up a short bit of background to all this for journalists and the like. Just in case anyone finds it of use.

Sparks

From the Irish Times:

Ban on licensing handguns
Madam, - Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern's decision to introduce a ban on handguns will do nothing to combat gun crime. Its only purpose is to show that the Minister is "doing something" about the issue. Legal handgun owners are a soft target. The Minister should be doing more to stop the inflow of illegal firearms. - Yours, etc,

Madam, - We're lucky Dermot Ahern is such a sharp thinker. All those drug lords and gangland killers must be quaking in their boots, waiting for their gun licences to expire. Then they'll have to toddle along to their friendly neighbourhood Garda station and hand them in.

Gosh, he's really trumped them! I'm sure they'd never dare to try get their hands on a handgun without a Garda vetting and a licence. After all, that'd be against the law. And anyway, where on earth would a drug lord get the money to buy illegal guns? - Yours, etc,

Madam, - As in Chicago in the 1920s, there is a serious problem in Ireland today over the use of guns by gangsters. The root causes of the two cases are very similar: the prohibition of alcohol in 1920s America, and the prohibition of drugs in Ireland today. Since prohibition means that the distribution of the prohibited substance is left to criminals, the latter get rich, powerful and out of control.

Rather than addressing the root of the problem by removing prohibition, the Government's solution is to take guns away from law-abiding people, the consequence of which is that now only gangsters will have guns.

Is there some logic to this that I'm missing? - Yours, etc,

Sparks

Of course, not all good news. From the Irish Times:

Arms dealer loses appeal over handgun
PADDY CLANCY

A LICENSED arms dealer has been banned from owning a handgun legally held by hundreds of Irish marksmen but which has been described in court as an "extremely dangerous" weapon.

Judge Kevin Kilrane described dealer Gavin Murray (25) as "an upright and decent man" but turned down his appeal against a ban on owning a Heckler and Koch USP Custom Sport gun that fires 9mm-calibre parabellum ammunition.

The judge said at Donegal District Court: "It is an extremely dangerous weapon. Gangsters and criminals would give their right arm to have one of them."

He added: "It would be my hope that legislation would be introduced absolutely banning all hand-held side-arms of this nature from individuals."

Mr Murray, Drimark, Donegal town, appealed against a refusal by Supt John Dennedy to grant him a licence for the gun.

The judge's ruling on Wednesday came as Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern said he will be introducing a new ban on handguns, although small-calibre sporting pistols will be excluded.

Supt Dennedy said he refused a licence under powers authorising him to exercise his discretion. He was concerned Mr Murray did not have good reason for owning the firearm. He agreed Mr Murray held certificates for other firearms but his concerns about this particular gun related to its compactness, ease of concealment and its potential danger to the public.

Mr Murray, who was recently ranked fourth in a national shooting contest, said he travelled the country, for competitions.

Judge Kilrane said: "There is plenty of hostile territory from here to Cork. A large number of people would be fully aware he has the firearm and is transporting it. The risk of him being robbed of it is very, very high given the present state of the country and the times in which we live, with robberies, with violence and, worse, death on the streets."

dresden8

Sparks wrote: »

Of course, not all good news. From the Irish Times:

Jeez, since the area is so lawless and out of control you'd imagine the cop and the judge would do something about that instead.

JunkieW

Isn't that some reflection on our sorry state though:

There is plenty of hostile territory from here to Cork. A large number of people would be fully aware he has the firearm and is transporting it. The risk of him being robbed of it is very, very high given the present state of the country and the times in which we live, with robberies, with violence and, worse, death on the streets

This from a judge. Jeebus wept, the Minister is stopping handgun licensing because the whole country from top to bottom is hostile territory.

Good grief :eek: