architect fees

Hi

An architect drew up plans and submitted to planning for me. I understand the architect fees are roughly 10% of the overall total cost of building the house.

They based their overall architect fee on the estimated cost of building, they quoted just under €2000 per sqm.

2 questions for you lads:

1) I think in todays market €2000 per sqm is very expensive, would you agree.
2) Should I be paying architect fees on the estimated cost of building, rather than the actual cost of building?

Cheers.

RKQ

Spilled milk?
If the work is completed and done as agreed you are morally obligated to pay the fee as agreed (in writing I assume).
If the work is not done or started then you are free to get a second quote or enquire with another practice.

If the work was done it was based on last years costs, I assume.
This is fair as if there was no recession, costs would have increased this year and your fee would not have increased - which would seem reasonable.

1. 2000/sqm seems expensive now but it depend s on your area.
2. You should pay the fee as agreed, a contract is a contract.

Hi

There wasn't any contract signed.

What I really want to know is should I be paying someone based on estimated costs rather than actual costs?

What would stop someone from estimating 3K per sqm? It doesn't make any sense to me.

sydthebeat

firstly,
IF this architect i sonly designing the house to apply for planning permission...... DO NOT pay him/her 10% of anything... thats a gross overcharge.

However if this architect is:

surveying the site
prepared the brief in consultataion with you
coming up with draft suggestions
designing the house
preparing the planning application
answering all and every query arisen in planning
preparing all tender documents, plans, full detailed specifications
preparing Bill of quantities
designing all engineering works, including for external engineer consultation
sending and recieving all tender packages (at least 6)
auditing each recieved tender
visit previous work of (proposed) successful tenderer with client
preparation and awarding of contract
preparation of any and all necessary construction drawings and details
continuous frequent on site supervision
management of contract and stage payments
full certification on completion
snag list preparation and checking of same
final snag at end of defects liability period

then the 10% of construction costs sounds about right.

Also remember that he / she should be basing her price on the actual successful tender price, and not their own 'estimated' cost.

RKQ

Yes. Pay what was agreed when you retained the architect. The recession or drop in construction costs is not relevent.

A contract is a contract, even a verbal one! If you agreed then it does not matter what the rate is or was. A fee was agreed - end of... 2000/ sqm or 10%....If I tell you it'll cost you 4000/sqm and you agree to this then thats it.

I note your only complaint is the fee after the fact. No mention of poor service etc.

Mellor

RKQ is spot on above, agree completely

Hi wrote: »

2) Should I be paying architect fees on the estimated cost of building, rather than the actual cost of building?

I think you aren't giving this part a lot of thought.
For a start, the actual costs aren't know until after the build is complete. Which could be 2-6 years after planning is complete. Its completely unreasonable to expect somebody to wait this time to get paid.
Second, sometime, unforseen problems can really cause the construction prices to rocket such as problems on site, worksmanship etc. If you had a bad contractor, who cause you to shell out an extra 50k to get something right, you'd be less than pleased if you had to add another 5k for the architect (who did little extra).
The 10% of estimated costs is simply a guide as to the amount of work an architect needs to do. And abov all, its agreed before hand.
But remember his work load is not reflected in the actual cost. If you get a guy in to do the blocks for half price, his workload is the same.

sydthebeat

RKQ wrote: »

Yes. Pay what was agreed when you retained the architect. The recession or drop in construction costs is not relevent.

A contract is a contract, even a verbal one! If you agreed then it does not matter what the rate is or was. A fee was agreed - end of... 2000/ sqm or 10%....If I tell you it'll cost you 4000/sqm and you agree to this then thats it.

I note your only complaint is the fee after the fact. No mention of poor service etc.

Hi, did they tell you, before you gave them the 'go ahead'.. that their fee would be based at 10% of costs assummed at just below €2000 per sq m..... ????????????????

No6

My understanding of fees charged by RIAI architects for full design service on a % basis such as this are,

1) the final fee is based on the total cost of the contract. the cost per square meter is used to estimate the contract value untill this is determined.

2) the full fee is not charged at planning stage, it should be around 30 to 35 % of the total fee at that stage. (there are 8 stages from inception to completion)

3) On a % fee if the contract value goes up you pay more fees if it goes down you pay less!! ( at the end of the project)

4) If they are an RIAI member you should have a written agreement with them

If you have such a fee agreement in place the you should be paying at planning stage say ( I'm making these fugures up.)

Estimated Contract Value 500,000

Total Fee 10% 50,000

Fee at planning stage 30% 15,000

Plus expenses & VAT!!!

I hope this helps!! ( I could do with a few fees like that at the momment!!)

Hi

sydthebeat wrote: »

Hi, did they tell you, before you gave them the 'go ahead'.. that their fee would be based at 10% of costs assummed at just below €2000 per sq m..... ????????????????

All I'm looking for here is some info.

The plans have been drawn up, there were various meetings had doing the plans and it could have been mentioned it. I'm a man who likes detailed information so if it was brought up it wasn't clear. They did quote 2K per sqm at the time but I knew at the back of my mind that I could build for less than that.

When talking to the architect what approach is best here? I'm inclined to just ask for the drawiings and leave it at that.

No6

Ask for the fee agreement in writing with the scope of services. If you are unhappy with the 2000 per m sq bring it up with the architect and see if he will adjust it and the fee, they might be quite reasonable on this as after all the fee will be adjusted when the contract cost is determined anyways and they may prefer to keep you as a client in this enviornment rather than loose you.

Juantorena

Is there scope for the architects fees to be based on an agreed budget, as opposed to eventual building costs?

Would this not ensure, to some extent anyway, that either the designer designs to the clients actual budget or that the said designer clearly states upfront that the project, in their view, is not do-able with the design/financial constraints placed on them by the client....?

topcatcbr

Juantorena wrote: »

Is there scope for the architects fees to be based on an agreed budget, as opposed to eventual building costs?

Would this not ensure, to some extent anyway, that either the designer designs to the clients actual budget or that the said designer clearly states upfront that the project, in their view, is not do-able with the design/financial constraints placed on them by the client....?

This is generally possable if not usual but it should be done in advance.

There is nothing more frustrating than clients who keep saying more during the design process and then want it to cost less after. Im sure some think that its Dr Whos tardis we can design. Big inside & small outside

RKQ

Fees should be agreed at the start of the project. A contract of service should be agreed in writing. Its no use asking these questions when the job is done.

Would you like your boss to re-negiotiate your wages at the end of the week / month? Would you conside that to be fair?

Architects have homes, families, cars and mortgages too. A contract is a contract.

Why weren't fees discussed at the start?

sinnerboy

Juantorena wrote: »

Is there scope for the architects fees to be based on an agreed budget, as opposed to eventual building costs?

Would this not ensure, to some extent anyway, that either the designer designs to the clients actual budget or that the said designer clearly states upfront that the project, in their view, is not do-able with the design/financial constraints placed on them by the client....?

Anything is possible - by agreement

10% total fee start to finish based on provisional budget of €2k/m2 - around M50 would be a typical agreement - broken down as follow

( A lower €/m2 seems to apply beyond the M50 - to my frank amazement )

30% paid at planning
35% paid when a contractors is appointed
17.5% mid way through build
17.5% at build completion

All subject to negotiation and agreement - of course

sinnerboy

Hi wrote: »

All I'm looking for here is some info.

The plans have been drawn up, there were various meetings had doing the plans and it could have been mentioned it. I'm a man who likes detailed information so if it was brought up it wasn't clear. They did quote 2K per sqm at the time but I knew at the back of my mind that I could build for less than that.

When talking to the architect what approach is best here? I'm inclined to just ask for the drawiings and leave it at that.

My advice - talk to the Architect . No 6 has given the most comprehensive guidance i.m.o. and Mellors post is very apt .

No6

Juantorena wrote: »

Is there scope for the architects fees to be based on an agreed budget, as opposed to eventual building costs?

Would this not ensure, to some extent anyway, that either the designer designs to the clients actual budget or that the said designer clearly states upfront that the project, in their view, is not do-able with the design/financial constraints placed on them by the client....?

Well if you decide that the budget should be no more than say 500,000 and allow 2000 per m sq (inside the M50, its a lot lower around here!!) that would give you a building of roughly 250m sq. But when this is designed and you the clients want it to be increased to 500m sq the budget and then the fees will reflect this increase too!!

Juantorena

No6 wrote: »

Well if you decide that the budget should be no more than say 500,000 and allow 2000 per m sq (inside the M50, its a lot lower around here!!) that would give you a building of roughly 250m sq. But when this is designed and you the clients want it to be increased to 500m sq the budget and then the fees will reflect this increase too!!

Of course.

By the same token as your point above, if material prices sky-rocket should your, the designers (I presume?) fee automatically increase?

What compulsion is there on architects/designers to design down to, or even below, a budget if one's fees are based on the eventual cost?

topcatcbr

Juantorena wrote: »

Of course.

By the same token as your point above, if material prices sky-rocket should your, the designers (I presume?) fee automatically increase?

What compulsion is there on architects/designers to design down to, or even below, a budget if one's fees are based on the eventual cost?

If you are given a budget at the start you would design to that budget as far as possible

No6

Juantorena wrote: »

Of course.

By the same token as your point above, if material prices sky-rocket should your, the designers (I presume?) fee automatically increase?

What compulsion is there on architects/designers to design down to, or even below, a budget if one's fees are based on the eventual cost?

And therein lies the flaw in this method none!!! However there are so many variables involved it generall works out, If you have a contract with your builder you should have a set price for the works, there will be variations which are usually client requests and usually cost more so as long as you the client are aware that if you want something more expensive that what is included you will not only have to pay the extra but also cause the fee to increase!! Extras and variations should be approved in writing!!!

Juantorena

No6 wrote: »

And therein lies the flaw in this method none!!!

Hmmm...

so as long as you the client are aware that if you want something more expensive that what is included you will not only have to pay the extra but also cause the fee to increase!! Extras and variations should be approved in writing!!!

...& hmmmm!

No6

Juantorena wrote: »

No6 wrote: »

Hmmm...



...& hmmmm!

I'm only explaining how it works, I dont charge using this method, I have however worked in practices where it was done like this, but generally it was used on commercial and government work, there was very little domestic work as the fees were far to expensive for most people. If I quoted 10% around here I would have been unemployed for years!!!

Juantorena

No6 wrote: »

Juantorena wrote: »

I'm only explaining how it works, I dont charge using this method, I have however worked in practices where it was done like this, but generally it was used on commercial and government work, there was very little domestic work as the fees were far to expensive for most people. If I quoted 10% around here I would have been unemployed for years!!!

I see...

Hi

Thanks lads for the feedback. Some very useful info here.

Just to clarify, no work has been carried out as of yet. No planning has been obtained...and no contract has been signed.

I've been asked to sign an agreement and for 10% (Stage A payment) of the total estimate cost. I won't make a payment based on estimated costs because it is way, way over the cost I expect to build for.

I'll take No.6 advice, talk to the architect...I've gotten a fairly balanced view of things so I'm in a good position to understand the process and where the architect is coming from.

Cheers.

RKQ

I had the impression you wanted to go back on an agreed fee structure.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As you are negiotating a fee, prior to any works, you are free to agree everything in your contract. Keep it simple, clear and fair and only agree once you understand it fully. It is possible to agree a fixed figure for each stage.

Good negiotating!:)

Dr. Nick

sydthebeat wrote: »

firstly,
IF this architect i sonly designing the house to apply for planning permission...... DO NOT pay him/her 10% of anything... thats a gross overcharge.

However if this architect is:

surveying the site
prepared the brief in consultataion with you
coming up with draft suggestions
designing the house
preparing the planning application
answering all and every query arisen in planning
preparing all tender documents, plans, full detailed specifications
preparing Bill of quantities
designing all engineering works, including for external engineer consultation
sending and recieving all tender packages (at least 6)
auditing each recieved tender
visit previous work of (proposed) successful tenderer with client
preparation and awarding of contract
preparation of any and all necessary construction drawings and details
continuous frequent on site supervision
management of contract and stage payments
full certification on completion
snag list preparation and checking of same
final snag at end of defects liability period

then the 10% of construction costs sounds about right.

Also remember that he / she should be basing her price on the actual successful tender price, and not their own 'estimated' cost.

I've already paid our architect for the plans etc., and we've got planning permission. How much should I expect to pay for the above in addition?

sinnerboy

about the same - roughly - typically

you missed out the "middle third" - i.e. the process to prepare tender documents and select a contractor