Blanket Ban on Handguns

Wertz

Slav wrote: »

No idea, but the figure of 4000 from his bad dream scared s**te out of the Minister.

A figure plucked from thin air then really.
Poor Dermot had a bad dream? Perhaps some Ovaltine and a good night kiss from mummy might ease his slumber. Jesus wept.

Slav wrote: »

Not sure even about the headlines. To be honest after seeing the way they presented the Budget I have a fear that the Govt is living in some sort of a parallel reality.

I'm forced to agree with you there then.

Slav wrote: »

Did I ever say that such event ever happened in Ireland?

You mentioned "sniper" rifles as if they're the weapon of choice in gangland hits in Ireland (read your post again), somthing which is evidently not true
This IS Ireland and policy should reflect what happens here...not what someone saw on the US news channels.

Slav wrote: »

Not only, the Minister mentions Dunblane as well.

A poster child for anti-handgun campaigners and an event that happened in another country over a decade ago, the relevance is pretty thin.
[edit] That's not for one moment to take away from the tragedy that happened in that school, I did not mean to sound so flippant about it.
They have to say something other than just "Limerick...blah gangs blah...west Dublin blah...Limerick" and Dunblane would be a nice buzzword.

Slav wrote: »

Did I say I agree with that? All I said it's quite clear where the Minister is coming from.

You strongly imply that you agree with it merely by the tone of your posts and obviously if you can empathise with Ahern you must hold some of what he's said to be true...

eamon234

I can see it now - masses of scumbags laying down their arms because it's illegal......
Worst part is that while they decide to "regenerate" the scummy areas they'll pawn them off to the nearest towns where they'll take over and create havoc and misery for the poor people who already live there - it's happening already.

marcsignal

I think a mandatory 10 year sentence for anyone caught in posession of an illegally held handgun, a mandatory 20 year sentence for it's use in a robbery, and a mandatory 25 year sentence for causing death with an illegally held handgun would have a positive effect on the whole situation, provided the law was enforced, and that these sentences were passed down without exception.

Voodoomelon

This is an outrageous ban, it simply defies all reasonable logic, beyond "we have to be seen to do something"...

Lemming

Slav wrote: »

The figure of 4000 handguns was published on the DoJ website. The Minister tells us about a bad dream he had: "Today we have 1800 legal handguns - in three years time that number could exceed 4,000 and rising."

In short, there are only 1800-odd legally held handguns (of all classifications) in existence in the country.

(I've underlined the period at the end of the above sentence in bold italics for anyone unable to comprehend the reality of the Minister's statement)

Your much-vaunted hysteria figure of 4000 is a number that's been pulled out of somebody's @rse after 10 pints of Guinness, i.e. not worth sh*t, as admitted by the Minister by his use of the word "could" in the above quote.

ArthurGuinness

I doubt that any legally purchased registered licensed handguns have been used to commit murders in Ireland.

CCCP^

Draconian.

Weaponry is coming into this country with drugs, not from civilian registered firearms.

Has anyone else noticed the flood of Patriot Act style actions that the Government has managed to slip in the back door in the wake of Shane Geoghegan's murder?

FTA69

Slav wrote: »

Also during the same time since the pistols were started licensed again there was a huge increase in the number of licensed sniper rifles, same as the criminals use (for a long time since the seventies it was only possible to license so-called small-bore .22 calibre rifles).

There was a big increase in high-calibre rifles because that is what you need when shooting deer. To get something like a 6.5 x 55 you need to be vetted by the cops, the notion of someone on a Limerick estate getting vetted for a licensed firearm in their name is farcical. That and the fact criminals use "cold" or "clean" guns, one's with no ballistic records. If you shot someone with a rifle in your name you would be nabbed in two seconds because the ballistics would match your weapon.

What on earth would a criminal do with a "sniper rifle" anyway? Criminals use handguns and small, automatic weapons such as machine pistols. Occasionally they'll use an AK47 to spray houses, bolt-action rifles don't really factor into the equation. You haven't a clue.

RedPlanet

I dunno, i could imagine laying down some sniper fire to start a panic, as a diversionary tactic to perform a robbery.

dresden8

RedPlanet wrote: »

I dunno, i could imagine laying down some sniper fire to start a panic, as a diversionary tactic to perform a robbery.

Or you could just start a fire. Or a bomb scare. Or run somebody over in a car.

So let's ban matches, phones and cars.

Sorted.

dresden8

RedPlanet wrote: »

I dunno, i could imagine laying down some sniper fire to start a panic, as a diversionary tactic to perform a robbery.

Or you could release the dogs. Or killer bees.

Or dogs that shoot killer bees out of their mouths.

Slav

Lemming wrote: »

In short, there are only 1800-odd legally held handguns (of all classifications) in existence in the country.

(I've underlined the period at the end of the above sentence in bold italics for anyone unable to comprehend the reality of the Minister's statement)

It's worth mentioning that a good portion of these 1800 handguns are handguns only in Ireland. Things like 10m ISSF air pistol are not considered as firearms in most jurisdictions. It is a nonsense already what the athletes should go through here to license one.

Slav

FTA69 wrote: »

Slav wrote: »

What on earth would a criminal do with a "sniper rifle" anyway?

Just read carefully what the Minister proposed. I think it’s qute clear that the full-bore rifles are next.

"the Minister will keep under annual review, in consultation with the Garda Commissioner, the outcome of the licensing procedure and, if the outcome of that procedure leaves a situation which still poses an unacceptable risk to the community, will use new powers, which the Bill will contain, to ban outright any type of firearm."

Do you have another interpretation of the above?

jmayo

mumhaabu wrote: »

And so the dictatorship continues, Joseph Stalin began disarming the Soviet people before massacring over 30million of them. The need to arm the private militia is now greater than ever. I suggest that all owners of these guns band together and refuse point blank to hand over their weapons which are a god given right and something our state was founded on. We need to implement a right into Bunreacht na hEireann to give every citizen to right to bear arms.

If this goes ahead it will not be long before Shotguns and rifles are banned. This is a pre-emptive measure to several upcoming issues in which the Fianna Fail and Green elites are trying to consolidate power. They are soon going once again to try surrender Irish sovereignty to a European Empire and will be holding a 2nd Referendum on Lisbon. Fianna Fail are at 70% disapproval and when taxes skyrocket to well over 65% in the coming two years they will want a disarmed armed public to toe the line.

This represents a move to dictatorship and they are already trying to remove the need to hold referendums to change the constitution so they can shred it further.
...
It is the truth and we must fight to keep the weapons otherwise Fianna Fail will turn Ireland into Zimbabwe. Fianna Fail's pre cursor, the IRA (Left Wing Marxists) tried hard to throw away Ireland's sovereignty in 1922 and destroyed the economy during the 30's. The free state Army crushed the rebellion and time will see the need for a private militia to rise up and bring Fianna Fail down either through peaceful means or through the use of force.

Guns = Democracy & Peace.
Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Guns have ridden the world of dictators.

Wrong, it's the bullets that kill people as AliG pointed out.
BTW this is not the US and not the US election thread.
I would suggest you get back on the medication

marcsignal wrote: »

I think a mandatory 10 year sentence for anyone caught in posession of an illegally held handgun, a mandatory 20 year sentence for it's use in a robbery, and a mandatory 25 year sentence for causing death with an illegally held handgun would have a positive effect on the whole situation, provided the law was enforced, and that these sentences were passed down without exception.

Wrong, it should read caught in possession of a illegally held firearm. Most of their firearmsare of the type used by military and police force specialist teams.
Anyway the problem with your theory is it depends on the judges.
They do not like mandatory sentences, because they can't let people off with joke sentences using some get out cluase in the law or some sob story about how they came from disadvantaged area and didn't have a puppy when they were a child. Need less to say most of these scumbags owul dhave tortured any puppy they ever would have had.

Sparks

What's really worrying me here is that this is public policy being set by RTE and the Irish Times. Literally. Deasy's comments were picked up by the Times and RTE and run with. Fine Gael disowned those comments and disciplined Deasy over them, and did the same to Mitchell in turn. There's been no accident or incident with licenced firearms to trigger this. The pressure is soley coming from the media to bring in this ban, and that's downright worrying given the novelty-seeking and temporary nature of the media.

dresden8

Sparks wrote: »

The pressure is soley coming from the media to bring in this ban, and that's downright worrying given the novelty-seeking and temporary nature of the media.

Stops us talking about the economy and 12 year old girls getting cervical cancer in the future eh?

Something like 80 of them will die a year because of that decision. You'd imagine the minister would be more concerned with their deaths than the supposed flood of "Dunblanes" that are going to hit us.

That's 5 "Dunblanes" a year he should be worried about.

Idiot.

FTA69

RedPlanet wrote: »

I dunno, i could imagine laying down some sniper fire to start a panic, as a diversionary tactic to perform a robbery.

Robberies usually consist of people running into a bank/post office with sawn-offs roaring their heads off and grabbing the money in the space of five minutes. That and knocking off Securicor vans, roof-top sniping isn't really the tactic of choice.

RDM_83

Some questions and a suggestion,
I presume the exact number of licensed firearms is known (and type etc), is it available (to the authorities) at a central location or is it held in the individual issuing garda stations.
Would people have a problem if the they banned all handguns above .22 which i understand is the sporting standard anyway and if not why?
In terms of a licence being issued is it slowly at the opinion of the local garda superintendent, and if this is the case I would feel it should be overhauled as (some) garda have shown themselves as none to civic minded ie McBreaty (if you talk to Donegal people you'l hear a lot of other rumours about other incidents)

Irlbo

I watched Bowling for Columbine last night,just at random and then I heard this news today,Im delighted,we dont need guns(unless its to fight off the Brits,haha)

Slav

RDM_83 wrote: »

I presume the exact number of licensed firearms is known (and type etc), is it available (to the authorities) at a central location or is it held in the individual issuing garda stations.

It seems like they can get the total number of pistol licenses issued but they are not able (or not willing) to present a break-down list on type/calibre. I guess this is down to the PULSE system they use to track firearm licenses, a piece of art software.

Would people have a problem if the they banned all handguns above .22 which i understand is the sporting standard anyway and if not why?

They would as this effectively will ban a good bit of shooting disciplines. There is no such thing as a standard sporting calibre. Each shooting discipline has its own requirements (not only to the calibre but to other firearm specs as well: for example a single-shot .22 pistol for ISSF 50m Free Pistol is not suitable for ISSF 25m Standard Pistol events).

Some shooting disciplines have a minimum requirement to the calibre. For example, IPSC rules (another popular pistol disciplines) require the calibre of firearms to be at least 9mm (9x19 to be precise).

In terms of a licence being issued is it slowly at the opinion of the local garda superintendent, and if this is the case I would feel it should be overhauled as (some) garda have shown themselves as none to civic minded ie McBreaty (if you talk to Donegal people you'l hear a lot of other rumours about other incidents)

Under the current legislation the handgun license applications as well as applications to license certain types of rifles and shotguns are supposed to end up in Phoenix Park in the near future anyway. This was old CJA amendments introduces by McDowell a couple of years ago.

It wasn't me!

Irlbo wrote: »

I watched Bowling for Columbine last night,just at random and then I heard this news today,Im delighted,we dont need guns(unless its to fight off the Brits,haha)

Y'know, I cringed when I saw this thread, and then I read it, and was surprised to see how clearly people saw through this current stupid smokescreen, and massively heartened. Then I read your post, and cringed again. What a silly, kneejerk, completely uninformed thing to say. We don't need footballs, hurleys, sliotars, basketballs, football pitches or sports-grounds (anyone for council housing?), golf courses and clubs or cricket bats, but why should anyone take those things away from you? Plenty of them are a waste of other resources and money and plenty of them have killed a lot of people, but ultimately, sports are a good thing for society. My sport uses firearms, so inform yourself in future please before spouting ignorance.

Vegeta

Irlbo wrote: »

I watched Bowling for Columbine last night,just at random and then I heard this news today,Im delighted,we dont need guns(unless its to fight off the Brits,haha)

Wow you clearly missed the whole point of the film then. Did you fall asleep for the bit when he goes to Canada who have more guns per capita but a fraction of the crime??

gandalf

This is basically a measure to make this government look tough on crime without actually addressing anything at all. The guns being used in these gangland feuds are being brought in illegally with drug shipments. If they want to reduce the number of killings they need to up their game in intercepting these shipments for one and resolving the revolving door that is the justice system in this country as well.

The time has come for a system similar to the US of 3 strikes and you are out coupled with severe penalties for holding a firearm without a permit.

To react to a situation where lawless citizens are being let away with murder by repressing a section of lawful citizens because there is a slim chance that one or two of their legally held firearms are stolen and could be used in a crime is indicative of the inability of the people in power to actually take hold of the current problem and solve it.

Fianna Fail have no idea what they are doing any more, Fine Gael are so desperate to get into power they will jump on every bandwagon without one iota of thought into what they are saying. At the moment we seem to be governed by pathetic red top headlines with no politician being brave enough to actually think for themselves.

paul1972

donaghs wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1119/1227026417220.html
I know there's huge thread against this in the Shooting forum, but maybe it deserves some debate here.

Can anyone really justify this? I don't own a gun or shoot myself, but even I can see that legally-held guns are not a major crime issue. Crime committed by legally held guns is also more solveable.

Are there any stats to backup a blanket ban on legally-held handguns?

Any of the crime I read about, the criminals modern weaponry is smuggled into Ireland.

No-ones even mentioned any of this in the news? Whats with the silence?

If there's a worry about their availability, simply reduce their availability?

Next thing there'll be a new law brought in making it illegal to order a killing from a prison cell with a mobile phone. Being seen to do something.

none gun crime has risen by 40% in england sense the handgun ban there and all studies have shown there is no reduction in gun crime by banning legally held firearms ........this is only a smokescreen to appease the public whilst ignoring the real problem

paul1972

you hit the nail on the head ,,,,,very well sumed up

paul1972

Sparks wrote: »

What's really worrying me here is that this is public policy being set by RTE and the Irish Times. Literally. Deasy's comments were picked up by the Times and RTE and run with. Fine Gael disowned those comments and disciplined Deasy over them, and did the same to Mitchell in turn. There's been no accident or incident with licenced firearms to trigger this. The pressure is soley coming from the media to bring in this ban, and that's downright worrying given the novelty-seeking and temporary nature of the media.

MAYBE ITS TIME TO FOLLOW THE AMERICANS LEAD AND BYCOT PUBLICATIONS AND PRODUCTS OF ORGANISATIONS AND COMPANYS WHO ARE TRYING TO DESTROY OUR SPORT

gandalf

paul1972 wrote: »

MAYBE ITS TIME TO FOLLOW THE AMERICANS LEAD AND BYCOT PUBLICATIONS AND PRODUCTS OF ORGANISATIONS AND COMPANYS WHO ARE TRYING TO DESTROY OUR SPORT

The only way imho is to make as much noise as possible in an organised fashion towards your elected and wannaby elected officials.

If they see a number of correspondences from their electorate showing extreme displeasure at the possibility of this happening then they may realise that people see this for what it is. A clumsy exercise in smokes and mirrors.

At the end of the day the criminal justice system should be there to deal with people who are breaking the law. It should not be used to target people who are law-abiding but are an easy target because it makes a good PR opportunity and gives the appearance of something being done.

It is going to cost money to get hold of the current situation, more Gardai and more prison places.

dresden8

Sparks wrote: »

What's really worrying me here is that this is public policy being set by RTE and the Irish Times. Literally. Deasy's comments were picked up by the Times and RTE and run with. Fine Gael disowned those comments and disciplined Deasy over them, and did the same to Mitchell in turn. There's been no accident or incident with licenced firearms to trigger this. The pressure is soley coming from the media to bring in this ban, and that's downright worrying given the novelty-seeking and temporary nature of the media.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1119/ireland/mhidqlauojql/

We're gonna lose guns, they're gonna lose their jobs.

Karma's a bitch.

Sparks

Karma doesn't do repair work dresden.
If someone breaks your arm, breaking theirs won't make yours heal any faster.

dresden8

Sparks wrote: »

Karma doesn't do repair work dresden.
If someone breaks your arm, breaking theirs won't make yours heal any faster.

Well since I'm a drug dealing, gangster hit-man (apparently), a broken arm is the least of their problems.

Allow me my moment of schadenfreude.