Blanket Ban on Handguns

marcsignal

jmayo wrote: »

Wrong, it should read caught in possession of a illegally held firearm. Most of their firearmsare of the type used by military and police force specialist teams.
Anyway the problem with your theory is it depends on the judges.
They do not like mandatory sentences, because they can't let people off with joke sentences using some get out cluase in the law or some sob story about how they came from disadvantaged area and didn't have a puppy when they were a child. Need less to say most of these scumbags owul dhave tortured any puppy they ever would have had.

well yeah, that's what i actually meant, and i agree with your assertion that judges are a big part of the problem, they're not living in the real world, by all accounts.

Personally i've no issue with legally held firearms, handguns or otherwise, but a serious precedent needs to be set for anyone caught with a weapon, without the right documents, or using a firearm in relation to crime, even if it's 'poor little johnnie that santa clause forgot'

oscarBravo

dresden8 wrote: »

Well since I'm a drug dealing, gangster hit-man (apparently), a broken arm is the least of their problems.

Allow me my moment of schadenfreude.

Can we keep the conversation grown-up and on-topic? Ta.

Sparks

How many people here actually think that there aren't already serious penalties for being caught with an illegally held firearm, or using one in a crime?

gandalf

Sparks wrote: »

How many people here actually think that there aren't already serious penalties for being caught with an illegally held firearm, or using one in a crime?

I don't doubt that the mechanism are there Sparks, the problem in reality is judges are not sentencing crimes against the person as severely as they should and there is a revolving door system that makes a mockery of the criminal justice system.

If they do catch the killer of Shane Geoghegan in Limerick I suspect, in fact I can guarantee he has a list of convictions already.

What is needed is the will to come down hard on criminals, and especially repeat offenders and ones involved in the drug trade. If they continually cannot abide by the laws of society then they need to be excluded from it for a very long time.

The second thing that is needed is for politicians to address the problem and stop playing to the crowd and going for what they perceive to be the low hanging fruit. Based on my experiences with our representatives in the Dail most are not qualified or have the ability to carry out their function properly. They are lazy and carry out their functions to a set of rules that are based on parish pump politics from the 1920's.

Manic Moran

Sparks wrote: »

How many people here actually think that there aren't already serious penalties for being caught with an illegally held firearm, or using one in a crime?

I think the more accurate question is "How many people think that the penalties aren't being applied?"

MAYBE ITS TIME TO FOLLOW THE AMERICANS LEAD AND BYCOT PUBLICATIONS AND PRODUCTS OF ORGANISATIONS AND COMPANYS WHO ARE TRYING TO DESTROY OUR SPORT

God, I hate Caps.

However, there's a problem with the analogy. There are sufficient shooters in the US that we can make a very viable economic dent in the business of any company which takes up such policies. Google "Zumbo" for an example of a respected hunter/author/TV Personality who drew the ire of just a portion of the shooting community. Within a week he was broken, had lost his sponsorship, his TV show, and his magazine columns. There's also the political side of things: What politician will allow the market to dry up so that, for example, Browning Firearms would have to close their New Hampshire plant resulting in people going out of work?

These don't apply in Ireland. What company are you going to boycott with any effect given the amount of shooters in the country? You just don't have critical mass and have to rely on logic and well-reasoned arguments. Which more often than not fail in the face of emotion and political expediency.

NTM

FlyOver

The first and foremost point that must be addressed is throwing the world of gun crime and licensed firearms into the one category. It should not be done. One group has criminal intentions the other is law abiding and has recieved permission by the state to obtain a firearm. One group uses it as an illegal weapon to cause harm or intimidate, the other uses a firearm for a sport.

I'm involved with different types of shooting sports in Ireland. Rifle, shotgun and pistol sports. I'm a firearms instructor and enter in many different shooting competitions every year.

Just read through the thread so far and happy to see the debate unfold. I can see from the shooters point of view, but more importantly I continue to educate people who are not in the know about all the shooting sports in this country. I always do my best to bring people from the misconceptions they may have about legally held firearms and the lengthly process you must go through to obtain one.

For example:

As we all know by now all the pistols (and perhaps revolvers as well) are glocks. by Slav

Similarly all the rifles above 22lr in calibre, equipped with a scope and black in colour are sniper rifles. by Slav

Sweeping statements, not even backed up by any facts. Get onto Wikipedia or the Glock website to find out more in order to form a better opinion. Best way to find out information on firearms in this country, if you don't know anyone in the sport, is to go over to the Shooting forum. All are welcome there.

Stops us talking about the economy and 12 year old girls getting cervical cancer in the future eh?
Something like 80 of them will die a year because of that decision. You'd imagine the minister would be more concerned with their deaths than the supposed flood of "Dunblanes" that are going to hit us.
That's 5 "Dunblanes" a year he should be worried about. By Dresden8

This brings into question the many things out there that are a cause for concern for public health; road deaths, tobacco and alcohol related illness and deaths. These would be seen as acceptable risks. A ban on cigarettes, alcohol and vehicles that reach over 25mph would of course be political suicide. I think most people know this. What any reasonable person would also notice is that if the government was to ban every single legal firearm out there, there would still be gun crime by criminals that obtain illegal firearms. But I think most people know this.

To react to a situation where lawless citizens are being let away with murder by repressing a section of lawful citizens because there is a slim chance that one or two of their legally held firearms are stolen and could be used in a crime is indicative of the inability of the people in power to actually take hold of the current problem and solve it.
By Gandalf

Couldn't agree more.

The whole "I don't want a US gun culture" scenario here in Ireland can be true to such an extent, but only if the government and law allows it. That's another topic entirely. It's not easy whatsoever to obtain a pistol legally, or any other firearm for that matter. It also costs a considerable amount to get into any shooting sport, it's not a sport for everyone.

The biggest loser out of all of this is going to be the shooting sports themselves.

paul1972

all the gangland killings in ireland are related to drugs and control of the drugs trade.. everyone who bought and used drugs recently has helped fund this latest murder and all the other murders . its their money which bought the gun , bullets and paid the creep who pulled the trigger... the blood of MR GEOGHAN AND ALL THE OTHER VICTIMS IS ON THEIR HANDS ... what the hell do they think these gangs use the money they make on ,

Manic Moran

Sweeping statements, not even backed up by any facts. Get onto Wikipedia or the Glock website to find out more in order to form a better opinion. Best way to find out information on firearms in this country, if you don't know anyone in the sport, is to go over to the Shooting forum. All are welcome there.

I'm pretty sure he was taking the mickey out of emotive politicians and being hyperbolic.

NTM

nesf

I agree with many people that it isn't legally held handguns that are being used in the majority of these crimes. I'm not sure however that people have a God-given right to practice sports like target shooting.

That said, I don't have much of a problem with legally held guns because the controls in this country are pretty strict (at least compared to the US) and because the reality is if a criminal wants to get their hands on a weapon, banning handguns isn't going to stop them.

Manic Moran

I'm not sure however that people have a God-given right to practice sports like target shooting.

Is there a God-given right to any sport? Heck, the word 'sport' means 'fun.' We do it because it's enjoyable, not because there's necessarily any practical benefit to it.

NTM

Sparks

nesf wrote: »

I agree with many people that it isn't legally held handguns that are being used in the majority of these crimes. I'm not sure however that people have a God-given right to practice sports like target shooting.

We don't. We have a State-given privilege. Thing is, it's not caused any problems since the first recorded match in 1844 (perfect safety record too). With that kind of history, you'd think you'd need more than a whim to take it away. I mean, there's no studies, no evidence, nothing to back up a ban.

nesf

Manic Moran wrote: »

Is there a God-given right to any sport? Heck, the word 'sport' means 'fun.' We do it because it's enjoyable, not because there's necessarily any practical benefit to it.

NTM

Yup, so I'm not sure whether we should even consider the sport if it was shown that legal handgun ownership in this country contributes significantly to gun crime. If it was shown (and it hasn't been) then I'd think it a was a no-brainer and that we should simply ban gun ownership in this country.

I am however not at all convinced that banning guns would help much, if at all.

SeanW

>_< more knee-jerk banning stuff, being passed off as providing leadership. This is the most pathetic thing I've ever heard of - all this will do is ensure that the only people who have handguns are the people who are prepared to break the law in the firstplace. I would very much love to see what statistics the Minister has to show what crimes are committed with legally held firearms.

I'm sure the "guns are evil" brigade are thrilled about this but remember - the U.K. instituted a total handgun ban and AFAIK it's done nothing whatsoever to combat gun violence. Indeed I was watching one of those English channels and there was a feature on about runaway violent crime in, some part of London I think, and some guy said "I could go down the street corner now and buy a gun, it's that easy."

all the gangland killings in ireland are related to drugs and control of the drugs trade.. everyone who bought and used drugs recently has helped fund this latest murder and all the other murders . its their money which bought the gun , bullets and paid the creep who pulled the trigger... the blood of MR GEOGHAN AND ALL THE OTHER VICTIMS IS ON THEIR HANDS ... what the hell do they think these gangs use the money they make on

Partly because certain industries are being kept out of the hands of honest brokers and placed in the hands of criminal gangs things like soft drugs etc, much like prohibition of alcohol in the U.S. in the 1930s.

Taking the attitude of "live and let live" and legalising certain businesses, taking them out of the hands of gangsters by creating legal competition, would IMO do much more to defeat gangland crime than having a blanket firearm ban or giving the Guards carte-blanche to tap our phone, read our E-Mail, sneak into our houses and bug our personal effects etc.

Edit: I don't shoot or own any guns and I had/have no plans to do so, but I don't see a problem with responsible people who do.

Sparks

A bit more detail and backstory.

JunkieW

Just been reading this thread and the one over on the shooting forum. This one seems to be a bit more level headed, but I suppose that comes with distance

I've been a bit shocked by some of the stuff I've read.

The media are unbelievably misinformed. It surprises me greatly that all sections of the media are culprits here, rather than the usually inaccurate tabloids. Has investigative journalism completely died?

The hold on to power at all costs mentality first espoused by Charlie Haughey and developed by Bertie Ahern is flourishing strongly in the current Government.

This seems to be allied with a belief that the electorate are stupid and will believe anything.

The good stuff:

The electorate aren't all completely stupid as evidenced by this thread. One hopes that its a representative sample.

The Fine Gael party (with the exception of John Deasy) have actually behaved responsibly in this debate and have pointed out the Governments smokescreen for what it is. I'm excluding Olivia Mitchell from the above as it appears that she had the gumption to reply to people's emails which is more than Deasy appears to have done. (I believe he ran to the papers complaining about hate mail :rolleyes:).

There's hope for us yet

It wasn't me!

It's actually entirely heartening to see the public support for legitimate shooters here. Being that so far, no legislation has been drafted, only proposed, and it's been seen to be a smokescreen, perhaps the whole farce will just go away.

Dave!

Has this made it onto Liveline yet? You can be sure that that's when public opinion turns against the shooters. Joe Duffy: the most powerful unelected legislator in Ireland.

It wasn't me!

Dave! wrote: »

Has this made it onto Liveline yet? You can be sure that that's when public opinion turns against the shooters. Joe Duffy: the most powerful unelected legislator in Ireland.

I think some of the shooting NGB's have been trying to speak up on it, but so far haven't made it to air. I'm honestly not convinced it'd be a rabble wave of support for the proposals though, I have a feeling that dissatisfaction with the government is such that people won't be led as easily. We'll know when the inevitable pooh hits the spinning thing however.

Liam Byrne

Should we ban kitchen knives too ? You can use them to break the law and kill someone, if you're that way inclined...

Hell, you can even use a car to rob a bank or run someone over. Let's ban cars.

Again, this is Fianna Failure wanting to be "seen" to do something, rather than actually doing something.

It's a bit like saying "if we reduce the speed limit then people will think that getaway cars won't get away", when in reality all that does is impact law-abiding people.

Existing illegal handguns and firearms are already, well, illegal.
Committing an armed crime, or even a "standard" crime, is already illegal.

Adding more laws will do nothing; IMPLEMENT AND IMPOSE THE EXISTING ONES, and MAKE SENTENCES AND PUNISHMENT COUNT.

Wertz

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm pretty sure he was taking the mickey out of emotive politicians and being hyperbolic.

I considered that when arguing with them back up the thread but they never made that point or made clear their intentions, which anyone else who had been wrongly taken up would have done. I think they were just misinformed or half informed.

Dave! wrote: »

Has this made it onto Liveline yet? You can be sure that that's when public opinion turns against the shooters. Joe Duffy: the most powerful unelected legislator in Ireland.

Nope. Been listening to see if it would come up. TBH I think that if it did it would have to be a supporter of current legislation, and I think most people supporting it would be wise enough to know that you don't go to air minority views, particularly regarding guns on Duffy's show...at leats not if you want to gain public support. I could just imgaine Duffy's hysterical protestations about guns being no good, ban the lot of them, etc.

Surprised that Matt Cooper didn't cover this though (unless I missed it) and the lack of any real coverage in the media other than the headline and the government soundbites.

Saddlebags

What amazes me is that after four years of pistol use in sport, how many people didn't even realise that you could licence one in this country, until all the recent media hype. This speaks for itself of the negative effects of licensed hadgun ownership here - there are none!
So, what started the media hype? Personally, I believe if various Superintendents around the country had fairly treated legitimate applicants, instead of applying their own biased opinion, then there would be no judicial reviews of their flawed refusals. With the High Court ruling in favour of sport shooters in 99% of these cases, the media saw a chance to make a mountain out of a molehill.
A superintendent's role is to apply the law fairly to everyone. It is NOT to dictate law. Unfortunately, you now have the situation where a small number of them have forced their own agenda on everyone and have, behind the scenes, managed to dictate to the law makers.
That, IMO, is what people should be very afraid of.

trentf

i'll just weigh in with the following comment

Your elected officials do not care about you...at all

they do not care about your life...at all
they do not care about what you love to do...at all
they do not care about your liberties..at all
they do not care about your health...at all
they do not care about wheither you think what
your doing is 'right' and the other side is wrong..at all
they do not care about wheither your employed..at all
they do not care one iota about wheither you succeed
in life and how much you think you are worth..at all
they most certainly do not care about your vote..at all
(Lisbon)


And there are some people who will happily accept restrictions
on things as long as its not something they partake in i.e gun owners,
they smirk and laugh about how some manufactured threat has been dealt with and
has saved them and their kids ensuring a brighter future,
until they find out tomorrow theres a blanket ban on what they love to do as well..

as for the media, understand the media just toe the line the powers that be want
they don't have and never will have 'objectivity'


to the power holders you are simply a subject of serfdom, a voiceless slave to be taxed and
told what to do to accept ever increasing restrictions on your civil liberties and life
until you one day wake up in an orweillian state that makes 1984 look like disneyland

whos to blame? the government or the people that sit by and let the
government walk all over them and say 'yes sir, i accept these ever increasing
hardships just let me have an hour off every day and ill be happy, your in charge
of my life because i refuse to take responsibility for mine, perhaps tomorrow will
be better news and things will get better'

the hard truth is things will not get better they will only get worse

time to wake up and understand whos getting the short end of the straw here..

biggun

humanji wrote: »

Other than sporting pistols, is there actually a valid reason to have a handgun other than "I should be able to do what I like"?

This ban is most definitely spin, but I honestly don't see why pistols are available to purchase in the first place, other than the reason of sport above.

Is there an actual reason to have them?

This isnt even about the ownership of sporting handguns anymore. if they do this they will go after the fullbore rifles as well and the pump action shotguns. Bans dont work and they never have, Just look at the example of england and Australia. crime stats went through the roof with illegal firearms.

Humanji: I have several sporting handguns. I love the sport. Its a real thrill to use one. I have been shooting years and wouldnt give it up for the world. Until you have used one, you really cant begin to describe the absolute buzz you get from it. My local CPO was with me some weeks ago and he said to me directly :

" Short of having a moat around your house, there really is nothing else you can do security wise".... Im a law abiding citizen with an interest and poassion for firearms.. Why the hell should people like me be blamed for the drug gangs that shoot each other in Limerick.. Im sick of it.....

The shooters of this country need to wise up and start writing to their local politicans and get their opinions. To be complacient in this issue will mean that this ****ing government will ban forks because there might be a danger they will prick someones finger...

biggun

nesf wrote: »

I agree with many people that it isn't legally held handguns that are being used in the majority of these crimes. I'm not sure however that people have a God-given right to practice sports like target shooting.

That said, I don't have much of a problem with legally held guns because the controls in this country are pretty strict (at least compared to the US) and because the reality is if a criminal wants to get their hands on a weapon, banning handguns isn't going to stop them.

bravo ! Thats the one bit of sense I have seen all night.

jmayo

Well just spoptted on the Irish Times website that our good old minister of justice is using the latest killing in East Wall as a reason for getting rid of legally held handguns.
They are just doing something so that they can turn around at the next election and state they removed 1800 odd handguns from society, nevermind they have been taken from the law abiding people and not the scumbags.
From Irish times website:

“This was a dastardly and despicable crime,” he said. ““The shooting underlines yet again how we have to crack down on handguns in our society.

“At the moment we have to establish whether the gun used in this was illegal or legal, although that it is irrelevant to the family of the deceased man. But my legislation banning the massive growth in ownership of legal handguns is pushing ahead.

“I intend to remove the 1,800 legally held handguns as soon as possible and I know gardaí continue to seize significant numbers of illegal handguns, the Minister added. “I know from talking to senior gardai that handguns continue to pose a major threat and both myself and the Garda will continue to crack down on their use.”

I will be interesting to see if this crime was carried out using a legally held firearm.
I am sure the guys carrying 9mm berettas, sig sauers or glocks are quaking in their boots at the fact that they can't get a license for a handgun :rolleyes:

Yeah they are cracking down on their use alright, now it seems we have kids carrying weapons just like in the Congo or some such place.

Dave!

What a bloody scumbag (the minister)

Not at all interested in trying to fix the problem, just trying to appear as such.

It wasn't me!

Using the death of innocents to try legitimise your stupid and useless legislation is sick, very sick. I have no time for the minister anymore.

Dave!

Was it Lenihan or Ahern who proposed this legislation? From what I understand it was Lenihan... which is disappointing. I've always been somewhat fond of him as a politician. Ahern on the other hand doesn't strike me as particularly compotent.

jmayo

Dave! wrote: »

Was it Lenihan or Ahern who proposed this legislation? From what I understand it was Lenihan... which is disappointing. I've always been somewhat fond of him as a politician. Ahern on the other hand doesn't strike me as particularly compotent.

AFAIK it was Ahern since this whole thing has blown up over last few months and Lenihan has being doing a great job over in Finance all that time :rolleyes:
Perhaps someone can correct me on this but either way someone should have the cop on to know this whole idea will make no difference.

It would be the same as saying that people can no longer have cars that can go above 120kph because some people may speed.

Manic Moran

If the killers were 13, doesn't that by definition make it an illegally held handgun?

NTM