Blanket Ban on Handguns

Rovi

Manic Moran wrote: »

If the killers were 13, doesn't that by definition make it an illegally held handgun?

NTM

In the hands of the 13 year old, certainly; what the Minister is spinning though, is that the gun might be legally held by someone and that it somehow found it's way into the hands of the perpetrator of this particular crime.
I'll be utterly amazed if this was the case, as we legit handgun owners are paranoid about the security of our firearms, as that's practically a prerequisite to being issued the Firearm Certificate in the first place.

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Should we ban kitchen knives too ? You can use them to break the law and kill someone, if you're that way inclined...

2005 wrote:

Doctors' kitchen knives ban call
A&E doctors are calling for a ban on long pointed kitchen knives to reduce deaths from stabbing.
A team from West Middlesex University Hospital said violent crime is on the increase - and kitchen knives are used in as many as half of all stabbings.
They argued many assaults are committed impulsively, prompted by alcohol and drugs, and a kitchen knife often makes an all too available weapon. The research is published in the British Medical Journal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm

Depressing, isn't it.....

It wasn't me!

...


There's just no real response to that. Any doctor who'd suggest that legislation would surely prompt a new wave of home treatment.

Nodin

It wasn't me! wrote: »

...
There's just no real response to that. Any doctor who'd suggest that legislation would surely prompt a new wave of home treatment.

Well, as was suggested on another board when that came out, they'd have to unpack us from the cotton wool we'd just slept in, and place us in the bubble wrap to travel to work, for starters....

It wasn't me!

The nanny state issue isn't the problem though. I don't want anyone as stupid as the person who suggested that practising medicine on me.

Villain

Don't you just love our Ministers, make hand guns illegal and that will help fight crime? Seriously like do they think the criminals will hand back their guns when they are made illegal?

We have enough leglislation we just need to enforce and give people the confidence to stand up in a court and give the evidence to convict them and we need the Judges to give sentences that will strike fear into those who are thinking about criminal activity.

We need leadership, proper leadership and I don't see it in FF at the moment but sadly I don't see it on the other side of the Dail either.

The special criminal court may need to be widened to include gangland members, I mean go into any town in Ireland and ask the locals who the local drug dealers are and they can tell you but fear is the problem so if we can't overcome the fear then use the garda intelligence to convict them in the Special Criminal court.

Nodin

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The nanny state issue isn't the problem though. I don't want anyone as stupid as the person who suggested that practising medicine on me.

'Persons'. And that was 2005. They could be anywhere now....sitting in their office, blunting the scissors and pencils....

lykoris

Irlbo wrote: »

I watched Bowling for Columbine last night,just at random and then I heard this news today,Im delighted,we dont need guns

requirements required to obtain a license in Europe is considerably harder than the US.

Here, in Luxembourg

no criminal record.
we are also run through interpol and other EU databases.
interviews with numerous firearms officers
my medical history reviewed and approval given from my local GP with written letter, ensuring no prior psychological/depression related illnesses - confirmed by the police by phone with the GP.
gun cabinet for safe storage.
restricted to rimfire (e.g. .22lr) ammunition for my first license.

It is worth noting that in mainland Europe literally 100,000s people enjoy target shooting with pistols every weekend without any harm done to anybody because we are all 'law abiding citizens with no criminal record'. We simply enjoy looking for tightening our groups as we practise this sport.

The following countries allow law abiding citizens to hold handguns by granting the relevant license

France

Germany

Austria

Belgium

Holland,

Luxembourg

Spain

Switzerland

Italy

Greece

Eastern Europe etc. etc.


Now how is it there is not a Columbine type of incident every week/month of each year in Europe? Again, we are not criminals, simply law abiding citizens who enjoy the sport of target shooting with handguns.

To my knowledge only the UK has banned all handguns. It had no impact on gun crime and simply criminalised law abiding citizens enjoying their sport. Australia did something similar with no impact either on gun crime.

I'm happy to see the Irish people do not blindly accept what their media/government tells them and are intelligent enough to know criminals don't possess "licensed" firearms be they handguns or rifles.

Criminals will always have access to illegal firearms with drugs coming into your country, banning legally held handguns will have "no impact whatsoever" on gun crime.


I hope you win the battle of misinformation.

It wasn't me!

According to a well-informed friend of mine, due to a series of exemptions in Britain's handgun ban, they still have more handguns per capita than we do.

Interesting from the point of view that it has possibly the most draconian firearms legislation in Europe. (To be fair, Ireland and it would be head to head for that title).

SeanW

Switzerland actually requires all young able-bodied males to keep a pistol for military service (hint: Switzerland was the only country in that area that wasn't knocked over by the Nazis during WWII)

lykoris

SeanW wrote: »

Switzerland actually requires all young able-bodied males to keep a pistol for military service

No it doesn't require all males doing military service to keep a pistol, that is untrue, officers perhaps but certainly not all males doing their military service.

and the Swiss militia was only one of the factors in deterring an invasion by Germany during WWII, gold to finance the German war effort/supplies/railway links to Italy/terrain were too important to the Germans. After the conquest of western Europe, the invasion of Switzerland had been planned, operation barbarossa took precedence and the outcome subsequently indefinitely postponed the invasion of Switzerland.

That being said, the German high command had estimated a casualty list of 600,000 german soldiers due to the expertise of Swiss marksmanship and every civilian household bearing firearms.

However, one could take Switzerland or Canada which has an enormous amount of firearms including countless pistols held by private citizens with no ill effect to society as they all abide by the law.

Criminals by nature conduct their business outside of the law and will always have easy access to pistols/revolvers and it is not in banning registered firearms gun crime will fall - the statistics in the UK and Australia following their respective bans give proof of that in black and white.

It would be a sad day that Ireland joined the UK as the only country in the EU to ban handguns. I believe your neighbours up north have had pistols held by civilians for numerous years without any calls for a ban.

It wasn't me!

lykoris wrote: »

I believe your neighbours up north have had pistols held by civilians for numerous years without any calls for a ban.

Indeed it's worth noting that pistols are licensed in Northern Ireland for personal protection, with about 8,000 of its 10,000 licensed pistols issued for that purpose. So the north has 10,000 pistols, over five times the number issued in the Republic, and their legally-held pistols, even those issued for defensive purposes, in the climate in which the north exists, have not caused a problem, so how anyone can suggest with a straight face that they would do so in the republic is beyond me.

Manic Moran

lykoris wrote: »

No it doesn't require all males doing military service to keep a pistol, that is untrue, officers perhaps but certainly not all males doing their military service.

Correct. Not pistols. Assault rifles.





Strange, that. Considered restricted weapons in Ireland. (Actually, they're heavily restricted in the US as well. I can't own one)

NTM

Manic Moran

From the neighbours across the water, the logical conclusion.



Which begs the question, if I let a kid eat food with a knife and fork, am I illegally providing him with offensive weapons, much as I would be breaking the law buy buying him alcohol or cigarettes?

NTM

Nodin

Manic Moran wrote: »

Which begs the question, if I let a kid eat food with a knife and fork, am I illegally providing him with offensive weapons, much as I would be breaking the law buy buying him alcohol or cigarettes?

NTM

As long as you blunt the former and ensure the cork remains on the latter, you've no worries.

O, and get a Doctor, Politician or cop to sign your live fork licence beforehand, of course.

Overheal

This is only the begining though. Ireland will see more senseless deaths and soon the empty gesture of the blanket ban will show its colors.

In reality they would be better off arming the Gardai (further) by making sidearms a standard issue. As it is no kid with a gun is going to be worried about the police.

It wasn't me!

The problem is, when the uselessness of the ban becomes apparent, it's already too late by half. No firearms law has ever been repealed in this country and this would be the death of pistol shooting sports in Ireland, and possibly the forerunner to the end of large-calibre rifle shooting as well, probably for everything bar deer. As a target shooter, I'm very, very tired of being demonised. I was going to buy an air pistol to get practice with it using cheap ammo and learn the fundamentals of pistol shooting, but I certainly won't be jumping to do that now in case the Minister should deem my single shot air pistol just to lethal and sinister for citizens to possess.

Nodin

Unfortunately, given the power to legislate without a check or balance (be it in law or by established lobby) in the area, theres a tendency to do so. No country appears safe from this tendency. I think the Austrians(fairly sure it was them) had some form of mental breakdown and banned Red Bull, for instance. The British have been having a "throw a law at it" frenzy since Labour took over.

Wertz

Listened to Ahern defending this move on a phone in show on local radio this morning...the amount of rhetoric, disinformation and patronising lip service voiced by the man was scary.
It scares me more that people like this are out there making policy than it does that there are a couple of thousand licensed firearms. The complete failure by him to address the fundamental point that licensed firearms are not what's causing the gun crime problem in this country was very telling...he blurted out some stuff about legally held weapons being stolen and some waffle about airsoft, but could not give a satisfactory answer to the issue about illegally held handguns, which I'd say at this stage probably outnumbers the number of legally held ones.
This man didn't listen to all the good sense that was put to him on the issue of the changes to licensing laws for off licenses and clubs during the consultation period ( :rolleyes: ) so he's certainly not going to listen to anyone but himself on this matter either. Roll on the general election...

Nodin

Wertz wrote: »

Listened to (.....)he general election...

Every few years, here and across the water, theres some discussion over the 'lack of respect' for the 'job that politicians do'. In the unlikely event of feeling guilty if you hear such a discussion, think back.....

RDM_83

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1209/breaking79.htm

would you not consider this a problem (only 27 handguns but I'd presume the number of shotgun to handgun licences is very high anyway).

ps and they're stolen so by definitition in the hands of criminals.

Wertz

It's a moot point on the election thing anyhow...I've never and would never vote for Ahern (or anyone else in FF) in Dáil elections....but thousands in the constituency see fit to do so for some unfathomable reason.

RDM_83 of course it's a problem, but it's not one that's going to be addressed by a ban on handguns.
This is more stable door politics...the guns that are already out in the wild having built up through various sources over the years (ex-terrorist weapons being sold on, a flood of cheaply made weapons from the EU accession states, stolen firearms, weapons in drug shipments) are not going to be affected by new legislation...the guys that have these guns don't care that it's illegal to have them, since for the most part they intend to carry out illegal activities with them anyhow and already face (albeit farcical) jail terms for posession of such...all that this new legislation would do is place competent gun owners into the same category as the gun-toting scumbag, citing some supposed benefit to be gained from the fact that those once legally held handguns are now beyond the reaches of those who would covet them.
Only goes to show, as others have suggested in the thread, that this is a pincer movement that will eventually be applied to other types of firearms within the State.
This will NOT remove all the illegally held firearms be they stolen or otherwise from the hands of those that would use them to harm and kill...only a hike in garda resources and possibly the arming of more officers can hope to tackle that...

Sparks

RDM_83 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1209/breaking79.htm
would you not consider this a problem (only 27 handguns but I'd presume the number of shotgun to handgun licences is very high anyway).
ps and they're stolen so by definitition in the hands of criminals.

If I could believe the numbers I'd say it was definitely a problem.

The things are:

1. I can't believe the numbers because
   • the numbers released on this so far don't add up (litererally). Between June and October '08, the number of licenced handguns in 2004, 2005 and 2006 all changed in the official reports. And that's only the one example, there are several others.
   • Ahern can't tell the Dail, despite repeated Dail questions, how many of the 1800 licenced handguns are the dreaded 9mm glocks and how many are blank-firing starter pistols, how many are single-shot olympic air pistols, how many are .22lr olympic smallbore pistols, how many are humane dispatch tools used by vets, etc, etc.
   • the Gardai can't tell if any of the 27 stolen handguns were used in crime because they don't track that information (as revealed in several Dail questions)
   • of the 27 reported stolen handguns, several seem to have been stolen in 2003. Before they were licencable by civilians.
   • of the 27 reported stolen handguns, there's no breakdown as to what they were - 9mm glock? starter pistol? humane dispatch pistol? airgun? No-one knows.
2. Even when it is a problem, it's not one that you solve by banning firearms out of hand. That's group punishment - and please don't say it's not because there's only a few hundred of us owners. The bulk of people have been waiting to see the legislation surrounding this settle down before buying - for example the Irish Pony Club only just decided to switch from Air Rifle to Air Pistol for the tetrathlon and that's a few thousand shooters right there.
3. The correct solution here would be to investigate the circumstances of the robberies involved and review the security arrangements, not ban the firearms involved.
4. The thing to keep in mind here is that the firearm used in the East Wall murder was - according to Garda detectives - found hidden in an outside wall by the 16-year-old who used it to commit an act of premeditated murder. It wasn't hidden there by a target shooter. All of which means (when looking at the ban alone) that even if you'd never licenced handguns in Ireland in the first place, or even if you'd banned them completely years ago, Aidan O'Kane would still have been murdered. So if the ban wouldn't have prevented the murder, how will it prevent the next one?

RDM_83

I posted that link because I was quiet suprised at how high the figure was myself having thought it would be lower (guns have to be stored in locked boxes etc don't they)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7599262.stm
and yes the fact that this number was involved in one arrest indicates that smuggling is the key problem.
but would people on this thread who seem mostly to be shooters support a compromise solution where they could own the weapon (yes its a sporting tool but its also a weapon) but not be able to store them at home i.e have to return them to a (very) secure gun club each evening.

ps I personally think they should make carrying a concealed knife an offence with an automatic punishment and details onto garda files (especially for Juveniles!) and UK 5 years for an illegal handgun.

Sparks

The thing with the store-it-at-the-club idea is that land is expensive. So ranges are ususally not in the midst of towns or cities. Which means they're ususally not near Garda stations or residential areas.
So what you're creating there is an isolated, remote, unmanned cache of firearms with a long response time for the Gardai to any monitored alarm system.
In security terms that's a bad idea. The current system of secure stoage (and monitored alarms in the homes of shooters who have fullbore pistols) is a better one. And given that the security protocols were only finally agreed on by the Gardai six months ago, it's not had sufficient time to prove itself.

gandalf

What would be an interesting statistic is the percentage of drugs seized to what they reckon is getting through and equating the number of firearms seized in these drugs busts and coming up with a figure thats getting through.

Thats where the real problem is. They are saying the gun used in the East Wall killing is a Magnum btw.

It wasn't me!

gandalf wrote: »

What would be an interesting statistic is the percentage of drugs seized to what they reckon is getting through and equating the number of firearms seized in these drugs busts and coming up with a figure thats getting through.

Thats where the real problem is. They are saying the gun used in the East Wall killing is a Magnum btw.

I think I saw an estimate last year sometime that they intercept about 10-15% of the shipments. Think it was based on weight and calculated on weights seized and estimated street traffic at the time.

Magnum eh? Yippee, buzzwords! I really do despair sometimes.

sfakiaman

RDM_83 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1209/breaking79.htm

would you not consider this a problem (only 27 handguns but I'd presume the number of shotgun to handgun licences is very high anyway).

ps and they're stolen so by definitition in the hands of criminals.

Interestingly enough, the figures for 2002, 2003 and 2004 were 28 pistols and revolvers stolen. During that period only one pistol was licenced to a member of the public and that was in 2004.

It would seem that thefts of pistols and revolvers are in inverse proportion to the number licenced.

lostexpectation

come on people i want to get to the actual reason ahern doesn't want people to have hands guns, he doesn't want the public better armed then the beat cop and he doesn't want people taking the law into their own hands by shooting some they caught robbing their house or citizen vigilantes.

dresden8

lostexpectation wrote: »

come on people i want to get to the actual reason ahern doesn't want people to have hands guns, he doesn't want the public better armed then the beat cop and he doesn't want people taking the law into their own hands by shotting some they caught robbing their house or citizen vigilantes.

Gun crime is on the increase. There is nothing he can do to stem that tide but come July of next year he can issue a press release saying he has personally taken 1,800 guns out of circulation.

"Tough on crime, tougher on gun crime."

That's it. There is no other reason. He is an attention hungry media whore.