A YES vote for Lisbon is a YES vote for ushering in the New World Order.

K-9

mysterious wrote: »

Excuse me in a minute, what are you implying about Iraq now?

Implying nothing. It's there in black and white.

For a NWO, the EU Was very divided on Iraq, bumbling NWO Idiots they are.

mysterious

javaboy wrote: »

Yes about 45% of the electorate of one small country blocking a treaty which affects 27 countries despite the majority of those countries already having ratified it is democratic.

Sounds pretty undemocratic to me. The elected* representatives of 18 countries out of 27 had already approved Lisbon yet one little country managed to veto it. You should be singing the praises of the EU that we have such great power.

Funny funny
Instead of defending the elites again.

You do know, or wait you probably dont know. They were millions of people in Europe cheering for Ireland on our no Vote.

I mean seriously, do you work for Europe or something, cus you do seem to think Europe is so democratic now all of a sudden, when there were millions of Europeans against the treaty and not just Ireland

The countries ratified the treaty by the government, not the people.
.

You haven't read the treaty. You are blindly taking other people's words that it is poisonous. They have their own agendas too you know.

When you read the next one I'll be laughing.

K-9

mysterious wrote: »

Cus every action must never be the same, to carry out a purpose.

Like any agenda, different things and different objectives need at the given time. The next treaty suts the agenda of the current timing.

Why would they be the same.
One treaty leads onto the next step.
This is a step by step process, no step is ever the same. Do you understand this logic, good god?

I do, but not yours.

You stated way back you read the Treaty, then later you stated you didn't!

You lost your credibility then.

mysterious

K-9 wrote: »

Implying nothing. It's there in black and white.

For a NWO, the EU Was very divided on Iraq, bumbling NWO Idiots they are.

It's none of their business. If Iraq want to sing in the rain, that's their business. It's none of America's or Europe's business to begin with.

I don't get your point in pointing Iraq in this issue though.

mysterious

K-9 wrote: »

I do, but not yours.

You stated way back you read the Treaty, then later you stated didn't!

You lost your credibility then.

I stated I read it a year ago. Thats all I said. don't take my words out of context;)

K-9

mysterious wrote: »

It's none of their business. If Iraq want to sing in the rain, that's their business. It's none of America's or Europe's business to begin with.

I don't get your point in pointing Iraq in this issue though.

+

Facepalm.

Ah, you said you read the Treaty, you didn't.

Now you deride the main opposition to Iraq, the main opposition to America and the UK's Iraq warfest.

Going from this thread, you pick and choose when to attack the EU.

K-9

mysterious wrote: »

I stated I read it a year ago. Thats all I said. don't take my words out of context;)

Do I have to go back and quote?

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

Yes about 45% of the electorate of one small country blocking a treaty which affects 27 countries despite the majority of those countries already having ratified it is democratic..

Rightly so, France, Holland should have voted along with us but it got slipped through the back door like the rest of Europe. The UK was promised a vote on the issue but turn coat NWO supporting Gordon Brown signed it through despite offering a referendum in his election manifest.

javaboy wrote: »

Sounds pretty undemocratic to me. The elected* representatives of 18 countries out of 27 had already approved Lisbon yet one little country managed to veto it. You should be singing the praises of the EU that we have such great power..

The same power that will be enforcing laws to snoop through our private Emails, blogs text messages, travel details, and eventually issuing chipped cards, tell me another one. Europe should have learned its lessons from the former Soviet Union.

javaboy wrote: »

See that's where the democracy comes into it so don't argue that they didn't get their say. They voted in their respective governments.

The same was said about Adolf Hitler and his party. :rolleyes:

javaboy wrote: »

Are you trying to imply that the constitution is not watertight on this issue? If there was a way to get Lisbon passed without a referendum, you and I know that FF would have found it..

I am saying that our constitution was totally watertight in that our government couldn't ratify any treaty without putting it to the floor of the country, a privilege that we should respect and not throw away at the next referendum.

javaboy wrote: »

You haven't read the treaty. You are blindly taking other people's words that it is poisonous. They have their own agendas too you know.

I have read the important points and the ones that concern the future of our constitution. Enough said.

mysterious

K-9 wrote: »

+

Facepalm.

Ah, you said you read the Treaty, you didn't.

I did I do need to read it again though.

But again I have to point out, this is only a scratch of what the elites are currently planning. Remember step by step process.

Now you deride the main opposition to Iraq,

I asked why did you point this as an issue in this topic.
.

Going from this thread, you pick and choose when to attack the EU.

Again you play this game, I represent.

Me and humanity.

I do not represent A super Europe, A dumb sheeple America and a communist led China/Russia duplex. I don't represent any of these regimes. I don't follow this NWO idea. I believe this will be destruction of humanity and life as we know it now. All of this including this treaty is apart of this plan. It has been the goal of the elites for thousands of years. One man wants to topple the other and have world control. That is what this is all about. You can all babble and argue each other over these documents. I'm telling you the current reality that is going to happen if you don't all start paying attention to the real sinister agendas that are currently in full stride of happening.

This is really happening. Don't and I stress this again. We've had this topic before, Please do not label me or put me into a category of taking sides and borders. There is nowhere on this thread where I do support this.

javaboy

mysterious wrote: »

Funny funny
Instead of defending the elites again.

What are you talking about?

You do know, or wait you probably dont know. They were millions of people in Europe cheering for Ireland on our no Vote.

I'm sure there were. I'm not disputing that. In fact I'm not disputing that if put to a popular vote across the 27 states, that it would be rejected. That's not what I'm debating. I'm simply highlighting that it's undemocratic that one little country like ours should have a veto on something which affects 26 other countries.

Hypothetically speaking, imagine every other country had 100% popular support for Lisbon. We could still have put a stop to it. So no I don't think the EU is particularly democratic. Our veto power is too strong.

I think Ireland itself is democratic though. Without getting into the content of the treaty itself, I don't see anything undemocratic in being asked to vote on something a second time.

I mean seriously, do you work for Europe or something, cus you do seem to think Europe is so democratic now all of a sudden, when there were millions of Europeans against the treaty and not just Ireland

Nope. See above for reasons why I don't think Europe is very democratic. It's irrelevant whether the majority of EU citizens were for or against Lisbon. We can simply veto it anyway.

The countries ratified the treaty by the government, not the people.

Yes. Their democratically elected governments. Democratically elected governments make decisions all the time without asking the people to vote.

How would anything ever get done if they needed a referendum every time a decision needed to be made?

When you read the next one I'll be laughing.

Pro-tip: Keep voting no to this one. Vote out FF at the next election and vote in an anti-EU party. That way we can leave the EU and we won't have to worry about the "next one". And all achievable through the democratic processes of our fascist state.

mysterious

K-9 wrote: »

Do I have to go back and quote?

Go ahead.

mysterious

javaboy wrote: »

Pro-tip: Keep voting no to this one. Vote out FF at the next election and vote in an anti-EU party. That way we can leave the EU and we won't have to worry about the "next one". And all achievable through the democratic processes of our fascist state.

See this is my problem

Europe is fine as it is, the Elites want a super Europe. I think it's fine as it is.

We don't need to leave Europe, if it's currently functioning right now, that we are a member and still hold our own as a country.

I don't think we need to be blackmailed and taken out of Europe cus of this stupid treaty. Now that's balony.

K-9

mysterious wrote: »

Go ahead.

Have to take this up with a mod.

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Rightly so, France, Holland should have voted along with us but it got slipped through the back door like the rest of Europe. The UK was promised a vote on the issue but turn coat NWO supporting Gordon Brown signed it through despite offering a referendum in his election manifest.

I'm just going to requote my earlier post which answers those concerns:

javaboy wrote:

The elected* representatives of 18 countries out of 27 had already approved Lisbon yet one little country managed to veto it. You should be singing the praises of the EU that we have such great power.

*See that's where the democracy comes into it so don't argue that they didn't get their say. They voted in their respective governments.

You may not like it and I'll be the first to admit that the tactics are more than a little slimy. But Brown, Sarkozy et al have been given a mandate to make decisions on their country. So implicitly, Brown's decision represents the will of the people. Welcome to representative democracy.

The same power that will be enforcing laws to snoop through our private Emails, blogs text messages, travel details, and eventually issuing chipped cards, tell me another one. Europe should have learned its lessons from the former Soviet Union.

Stop trying to cloud the issue. That stuff has nothing whatsoever to do with what you quoted. I was talking about Ireland's "power to veto". That's a completely different thing to the power to do all the rubbish you mentioned.

The same was said about Adolf Hitler and his party. :rolleyes:

So once upon a time an electorate voted some nasty people into power. What are you suggesting? That we scrap democracy because sometimes people will vote for people who turn nasty?

I am saying that our constitution was totally watertight in that our government couldn't ratify any treaty without putting it to the floor of the country, a privilege that we should respect and not throw away at the next referendum.

Fair enough. I'm not going to get into the ins and outs of the treaty itself because we've been down that road a million times, and I know we won't agree.

But you do accept that Lisbon cannot be pushed through without the people's approval? So what's the problem? Just vote no. Vote no over and over again if you have to. And then when you get a chance, kick FF out for making you do so.

javaboy

mysterious wrote: »

See this is my problem

Europe is fine as it is, the Elites want a super Europe. I think it's fine as it is.

We don't need to leave Europe, if it's currently functioning right now, that we are a member and still hold our own as a country.

I don't think we need to be blackmailed and taken out of Europe cus of this stupid treaty. Now that's balony.

That's fair enough. I disagree with your stance but I respect it and I can understand how being asked to vote again might annoy you.

But if people change their minds and polls show that the electorate would vote for Lisbon if asked again, is it not undemocratic to deny them the chance to do so?

Would it be ok to ask again in a year?
How about 5 years?
50 years?

How long should the decisions made by one electorate at one instance in time be allowed to override the will of a future electorate?

mysterious

javaboy wrote: »

So once upon a time an electorate voted some nasty people into power. What are you suggesting? That we scrap democracy because sometimes people will vote for people who turn nasty?

As a human being, and this world full of it, there will never be full democracy;)

If it involves power, it aint democracy, may appear so. But human nature should tell you alot of actual reality and what has gone out since the beginning of mankind.

You give a nice man enough power, he will turn nasty. Cus he can and there is no one to stop him

I'm sure Hitler was a nice man when he was young. I'm sure G.W.B was a nice man too. Even Stalin and muissolini.

I've said this on other larger forums. I'll will say it here again.
Give power to one man over all, will destroy all.

This is time of self empowerment and awakening. WE HAVE TO STOP THIS READ THIS TREATY AND ABIDE BY THESE TREATIES. It will not stop until all your civil liberties and freedoms will be taken away. You have 4 years to decided what you want.

So go ahead and decided what your going to vote for in this treaty. This is the start of this wheel turning in this power superstate world direction.

I really don't care if none of you believe me. I get my hunches and thats' that. I predicted a global downturn two years ago. I also managed to deter a Iran war;) Knowing how the laws of the attraction and the universe works and the power of words and symbolism.

mysterious

javaboy wrote: »

That's fair enough. I disagree with your stance but I respect it and I can understand how being asked to vote again might annoy you.

But if people change their minds and polls show that the electorate would vote for Lisbon if asked again, is it not undemocratic to deny them the chance to do so?

Would it be ok to ask again in a year?
How about 5 years?
50 years?

How long should the decisions made by one electorate at one instance in time be allowed to override the will of a future electorate?

People keep looking like this like taking a snap of a picture and it's all momentarily

The people I'm talking about who planned this treaty have been planning this for years, this is ONE step to rip up our countries as we know it. It is the first step for the European Elite to have greater control as a whole. Think of this like a stairs. The people behind this NWO, are not going to succeed by taking 13 steps in one go. They have to slowly do this and really carefully. To a point where they slowly creep up the power system over us to a point where there are so many treaties passed and signed by us, we can't go against the paper.

This is how they have the power over us. This is what none of you realise yet. I do sometimes get a sick feeling wondering why others cant see as far as I can see. But I'm prepared for all of you to challenge me when the times comes, cus I know I'll be proven right. Just remember it's 2009 and these words will be forever on this board, and I'll will have the final say.

I'm not saying there is everything wrong with Lisbon, i'm specifically talking about the agenda behind it, the bigger picture. Maybe you all don't see what I can, and maybe that is unfair that I have a precognitive mind that can.

But my take on this.
Once this is passed the next treaty will have new laws, you sgin it. The next after the next. The goal here is to create a super nazis Europe. Whether you are aware of it or not.


That is what I'm saying here.

javaboy

mysterious wrote: »

People keep looking like this like taking a snap of a picture and it's all momentarily

The people I'm talking about who planned this treaty have been planning this for years, this is ONE step to rip up our countries as we know it. It is the first step for the European Elite to have greater control as a whole. Think of this like a stairs. The people behind this NWO, are not going to succeed by taking 13 steps in one go. They have to slowly do this and really carefully. To a point where they slowly creep up the power system over us to a point where there are so many treaties passed and signed by us, we can't go against the paper.

This is how they have the power over us. This is what none of you realise yet. I do sometimes get a sick feeling wondering why others cant see as far as I can see. But I'm prepared for all of you to challenge me when the times comes, cus I know I'll be proven right. Just remember it's 2009 and these words will be forever on this board, and I'll will have the final say.

I'm not saying there is everything wrong with Lisbon, i'm specifically talking about the agenda behind it, the bigger picture. Maybe you all don't see what I can, and maybe that is unfair that I have a precognitive mind that can.

But my take on this.
Once this is passed the next treaty will have new laws, you sgin it. The next after the next. The goal here is to create a super nazis Europe. Whether you are aware of it or not.


That is what I'm saying here.

Seems like an awful lot of rhetoric with no real substance. It's easy to say "I feel it in my waters" or whatever but the fact is that at some point, legislation must be passed which explicitly allows for the horrors you foresee (loss of sovereignty for example).

No amount of subtlety or gradually building things up with steps can avoid that. At some point the electorate must approve changes to our constitution which remove our sovereignty. When and if that happens, I'll be voting against it.

6th

mysterious wrote: »

People keep looking like this like taking a snap of a picture and it's all momentarily

The people I'm talking about who planned this treaty have been planning this for years, this is ONE step to rip up our countries as we know it. It is the first step for the European Elite to have greater control as a whole. Think of this like a stairs. The people behind this NWO, are not going to succeed by taking 13 steps in one go. They have to slowly do this and really carefully. To a point where they slowly creep up the power system over us to a point where there are so many treaties passed and signed by us, we can't go against the paper.

This is how they have the power over us. This is what none of you realise yet. I do sometimes get a sick feeling wondering why others cant see as far as I can see. But I'm prepared for all of you to challenge me when the times comes, cus I know I'll be proven right. Just remember it's 2009 and these words will be forever on this board, and I'll will have the final say.

I'm not saying there is everything wrong with Lisbon, i'm specifically talking about the agenda behind it, the bigger picture. Maybe you all don't see what I can, and maybe that is unfair that I have a precognitive mind that can.

But my take on this.
Once this is passed the next treaty will have new laws, you sgin it. The next after the next. The goal here is to create a super nazis Europe. Whether you are aware of it or not.


That is what I'm saying here.

Seriously, this is a CT discussion forum. I'm getting tempted to move your posts to the spirituality or paranormal forum.

If you want to make claims then back them up with more than just your "feelings" or "precognition". If you want to post about your beliefs then this forum isnt the right one for you.

Penn

mysterious wrote: »

You give a nice man enough power, he will turn nasty. Cus he can and there is no one to stop him

Sorry Mysterious, but what would you suggest we do instead?

We do not give one man power, we choose one person to lead a group of representatives to make the choices that need to be made. I don't know if you've ever heard the phrase "A camel is a horse designed by committee", but it means that the more people you have making decisions, the worse those decisions will be. People are given the right to vote for important treaties, but it is the politicians who choose what the treaties are, because if it was left to everyone, it would never work.

And there is a way to stop them, for example, in America there is the 25th Amendment, which means that the Vice President and the members of the Cabinet can vote to remove the President from office.

mysterious

6th wrote: »

Seriously, this is a CT discussion forum. I'm getting tempted to move your posts to the spirituality or paranormal forum.

If you want to make claims then back them up with more than just your "feelings" or "precognition". If you want to post about your beliefs then this forum isnt the right one for you.

Again 6th what is your issue here, I do post facts, I do post links, I do post websites and I do have alot of logic and personal opinions to add,

I really really don't get what your issue is, when I do sometimes add feeling to it. I use feeling and logic and thats important and acceptableBtw the mods on that forum would move this back to here because it is a conspiracy theory and it is a theory and I'm dicussing the theory. I'm not dicussing ghosts or spiritual concepts, so please....

I'm really sorry that I don't have all the facts, cus if I did it wouldn't be a C.Ts

mysterious

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

Sorry Mysterious, but what would you suggest we do instead?

We do not give one man power, we choose one person to lead a group of representatives to make the choices that need to be made. I don't know if you've ever heard the phrase "A camel is a horse designed by committee", but it means that the more people you have making decisions, the worse those decisions will be. People are given the right to vote for important treaties, but it is the politicians who choose what the treaties are, because if it was left to everyone, it would never work.

And there is a way to stop them, for example, in America there is the 25th Amendment, which means that the Vice President and the members of the Cabinet can vote to remove the President from office.

Right you have a point. I think it's a very valid one.
I suggest that we atleast become more attentive and more aware of what our elected members of government are doing, as they represent us.

It seems to me that nowdays, we are so much asleep, we go to the polls and vote a politician into office and then go home and watch the simpsons with a beer and fall asleep. Then get up and go to work the next day. Believe everything these leaders say on the T.V and follow everything they do and never ever dicern, question or observe what is going on around us. This is becoming infuriating to me. That it defeats the purpose of voting and someone representing you, cus it's my daring opinion that these politicans in government are doing all they can to dumb us down at the same time, via, processed food, media, war, t.v, hollywood, flouride/mercury and all these treaties, laws and new amendments.

Vote all you want, but it's becoming a controlled robotic society, where you vote for someone now to just control you.

This is what is the problem. The politicans want this to be the way, so they have more power and control. Leave all the decisions to the politicians we just stay asleep. We can't even impeach our leaders anymore, infact I don't think people would even dream of doing so.


I'm saying our vote doesn't really make a difference. As the politiicans are really pushing for more power and more control and we are becoming more asleep.

You can vote all you want and find a politician that will represent you, but are you also going to empower yourself, and stand up to your beliefs and say thats enough or this not acceptable. Cus it seems to me politicans can do whatever they like these days. These re vote treaties are an example.

6th

Why not get int o politics yourself and give people the option of having some who represent them that knows the truth?

Btw, theres a bit in the charter about discussing mod decissions in thread. Please go familiarize yourself with the charter.

mysterious

6th wrote: »

Why not get int o politics yourself and give people the option of having some who represent them that knows the truth?

Btw, theres a bit in the charter about discussing mod decissions in thread. Please go familiarize yourself with the charter.

That is not my purpose, I'm getting into blogging and I'm using my talents wisely. I don't believe to go under a house as a representative of the same bull**** corrupt system. I don't want to be voted in to fix potholes and all that jazz.

I'm discussing C.Ts though. That's all I said thats my final word on this.

6th

Trying to have the last word for the sake of it will only land you in trouble.

6th

mysterious, post deleted. Stay on topic. Last warning.

mysterious

javaboy wrote: »

Seems like an awful lot of rhetoric with no real substance. It's easy to say "I feel it in my waters" or whatever but the fact is that at some point, legislation must be passed which explicitly allows for the horrors you foresee (loss of sovereignty for example).

No amount of subtlety or gradually building things up with steps can avoid that. At some point the electorate must approve changes to our constitution which remove our sovereignty. When and if that happens, I'll be voting against it.

ok

Real substance, I'm a person with real experiences thoughts and intellegence.That is substance. I use it well. Is real substance recieved via the media only or do we use our experiences, logic and feelings in any case? Or sit and watch t.v?

How do you get real substances, by believing the next person beside you or what the T.v says. I'm curious as to what your implying here to get substance and whats only valid as so

What is substance in this case.

Hitman Actual

mysterious wrote: »

ok

Real substance, I'm a person with real experiences thoughts and intellegence.That is substance. I use it well. Is real substance recieved via the media only or do we use our experiences, logic and feelings in any case? Or sit and watch t.v?

How do you get real substances, by believing the next person beside you or what the T.v says. I'm curious as to what your implying here to get substance and whats only valid as so

What is substance in this case.

wrote:

substance -noun
...
5. the actual matter of a thing, as opposed to the appearance or shadow; reality.
...

Your "experiences thoughts and intellegence" are not substance. No offence, but you clearly have very little understanding of how the EU actually works.

There are a wealth of balanced textbooks available on the European Union. The best way to start is to get a decent book which covers EU history, Institutions and Policies. Here is one such book. It's written by an Irish guy (Desmond Dinan) who's a professor in the USA. And it is balanced- he talks candidly about the problems in the EU, political motivations of the EU, etc.

Secondly, and more importantly, you need to read a book which covers EU law- Primary Law (the Treaties), Secondary Law (Regulations and Directives), and the ECJ rulings related to same that have made up the substantive case law of the EU. Pretty much any EU law book will do- by their very nature a law textbook is balanced as it deals exactly with fact and substance. Reading about the implementation of the Treaties by the Commission and the rulings of the ECJ is the best way to understand the real motivations of the EU.

King Mob

So 32 pages in and we've yet to hear a single reason to vote no on Lisbon that isn't based on falsehoods or a fear of a non-existent NWO.

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

So 32 pages in and we've yet to hear a single reason to vote no on Lisbon that isn't based on falsehoods or a fear of a non-existent NWO.

The yes campaign is an unholy alliance fronted by some of the most incompetent politicians in Europe with large corporate interests and the EU commission demanding a yes vote.

The people of Ireland will not be bullied or conned into selling out 500 million fellow Europeans on the basis of the 'shiny trinket' that is the Charter of Fundamental rights People's Movement.

I have already stated my case against this EU Superstate that freely colaberates with the worlds superpowers in this so called "war on terror" that will eventually strip civil liberties and freedom of movement from every man woman and child on this planet.

King Mob

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The yes campaign is an unholy alliance fronted by some of the most incompetent politicians in Europe with large corporate interests and the EU commission demanding a yes vote.

The people of Ireland will not be bullied or conned into selling out 500 million fellow Europeans on the basis of the 'shiny trinket' that is the Charter of Fundamental rights People's Movement.

How are we being conned?
How are they demanding anything?
What makes the Charter of Fundamental rights a "shiney trinket"?
What exactly is wrong with the Treaty that's making you vote no?

And the most important question: have you actually read the damn thing yet?

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

How are we being conned?

Being forced into something that WE the people of Ireland do not want.

King Mob wrote: »

How are they demanding anything?

They are demanding a Yes vote. :rolleyes:

Again.
Nicolas Sarkozy: Ireland must vote again on EU Lisbon treaty.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/2437817/Nicolas-Sarkozy-Ireland-must-vote-again-on-EU-Lisbon-treaty.html

Nicolas Sarkozy warns Ireland not to vote "No" again
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_hannan/blog/2009/01/26/nicolas_sarkozy_warns_ireland_not_to_vote_no_again

King Mob wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with the Treaty that's making you vote no?

The thought of it.

King Mob wrote: »

And the most important question: have you actually read the damn thing yet?

Already stated: The valid points are enough without having to read the whole damn thing.

Penn

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Being forced into something that WE the people of Ireland do not want.
They are demanding a Yes vote. :rolleyes:

Again.
Nicolas Sarkozy: Ireland must vote again on EU Lisbon treaty.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/2437817/Nicolas-Sarkozy-Ireland-must-vote-again-on-EU-Lisbon-treaty.html

Nicolas Sarkozy warns Ireland not to vote "No" again
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_hannan/blog/2009/01/26/nicolas_sarkozy_warns_ireland_not_to_vote_no_again
The thought of it.
Already stated: The valid points are enough without having to read the whole damn thing.

We are still not being forced to vote yes. We still have the choice to vote no. We are being ASKED to vote yes. We are being told we SHOULD vote yes. But we can still vote no.

King Mob

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Being forced into something that WE the people of Ireland do not want.

So why not vote again? If the people don't want it that's how they'll vote.
However the last vote was not indicative of the peoples will because the majority of No voters had no idea what they were voting for.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They are demanding a Yes vote. :rolleyes:

Again.
Nicolas Sarkozy: Ireland must vote again on EU Lisbon treaty.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/2437817/Nicolas-Sarkozy-Ireland-must-vote-again-on-EU-Lisbon-treaty.html

Nicolas Sarkozy warns Ireland not to vote "No" again
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_hannan/blog/2009/01/26/nicolas_sarkozy_warns_ireland_not_to_vote_no_again

Yep because out of context quotes are law!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The thought of it.

The thought of what exactly?
Any hope of a straight answer?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Already stated: The valid points are enough without having to read the whole damn thing.

And funnily you have not raised a single valid point.
All you've raised is scaremongering and untruths.

But yea you're fightin' for democracy.

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

So why not vote again? If the people don't want it that's how they'll vote.
However the last vote was not indicative of the peoples will because the majority of No voters had no idea what they were voting for.

You could say the same about the YES campaigners including many politicians that admitted they never read the damn thing. :rolleyes:

King Mob

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You could say the same about the YES campaigners including many politicians that admitted they never read the damn thing. :rolleyes:

Not really.
The yes campaigners weren't making **** up like "it's a NWO plot" or "it'll take away our democracy."

But yea if the other side are doing it it's ok not to educate yourself and spread lies.
Go go democracy!

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

Not really.
The yes campaigners weren't making **** up like "it's a NWO plot" or "it'll take away our democracy."

But yea if the other side are doing it it's ok not to educate yourself and spread lies.
Go go democracy!

Instead the Yes campaigners were compiling sexist posters and rubbish about the treaty instead of telling us the truth. :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LaVIm-Ouhw

http://contexts.org/socimages/files/blogger2wp/Lisbonmale.jpg

http://www.yfg.ie/photoalbums/album21/Lisbon_female.jpg

King Mob

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Instead the Yes campaigners were compiling sexist posters and rubbish about the treaty instead of telling us the truth. :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LaVIm-Ouhw

http://contexts.org/socimages/files/blogger2wp/Lisbonmale.jpg

http://www.yfg.ie/photoalbums/album21/Lisbon_female.jpg

That's it?
Sexist posters?

Yes that's the exact same as claiming europe is taking away our freedom.

Penn

it doesn't matter what anyone says about the treaty. All that matters is whats IN the treaty. That should be the only factor in peoples choices on whether or not they vote for it.

K-9

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

it doesn't matter what anyone says about the treaty. All that matters is whats IN the treaty. That should be the only factor in peoples choices on whether or not they vote for it.

Ah, but that's the problem with the No side. They can't win based on rational debate about the Treaty, hence, NWO, Anti democratic (despite it being more democratic), Nationalistic, Abortion/Taxation/Neutrality/civil rights, whatever your having yourself, scare mongering.

Annoying if you want a calm debate, but very effective campaigning.

mysterious

King Mob wrote: »

So why not vote again? If the people don't want it that's how they'll vote.
However the last vote was not indicative of the peoples will because the majority of No voters had no idea what they were voting for.

But you see, they like to bully us and use fear and panick factor into our vote. That is wrong.

The elites, to say notions as there will be grave consquences for Ireland voting No again.

This really is inappropriate and really does defeat the purpose of voting in the first place. They are hoping we will vote out of guilt.

I won't for sure. I'm a fan of respect and self dignity. I don't see this coming from Europe in any capactiy. This kind of behaviour does have a reason to be mentioned and pointed out in this current agenda.

It should be well noted, that this is what we are voting for. This kind of behaviour.

And funnily you have not raised a single valid point.
All you've raised is scaremongering and untruths.

Scaremongering, since your pointing fingers all the time, what kind of scaremongering are we talking about?

The elite wanting us to vote yes and only yes and if we dont there will be consquences, king mob you have a habit of selective thinking here.

But yea you're fightin' for democracy.

If you think democracy is real, then it's fantasy land your thinking of, we on earth had never democracy. Power and democracy just dont work with mankind.

What is happening here, is a false impreession of democracy. Give a man, country, superstate enough power it will turn into a one man power system.

We will see whos right in ten years time eh.;)

This is the direction of Europe, you might not see it yet though

Diogenes

mysterious wrote: »

But you see, they like to bully us and use fear and panick factor into our vote. That is wrong.

Yes using fear and panic to get us to vote is wrong. THAT IS VERY NAUGHTY.

Hey Mysterious wanna seem some of the "No" Campaigns posters?



or





Yes preying on voters fears isn't right, so what do the above posters say about the "No" Campaign?

The elites, to say notions as there will be grave consquences for Ireland voting No again.

And those who say if we vote "yes" we will lose all civil liberities, privacy, and the right to control our armies. And if the "No" sides posters are to be believed children will be barcoded and injected with chips, we will all be marked with the sign of the beast, and face nuclear armageddon.

Wait, sorry which said is making lurid claims again?

This really is inappropriate and really does defeat the purpose of voting in the first place. They are hoping we will vote out of guilt.

While the No campaign seems to try to make us vote their way out baseless fears.

I won't for sure. I'm a fan of respect and self dignity. I don't see this coming from Europe in any capactiy. This kind of behaviour does have a reason to be mentioned and pointed out in this current agenda.

Any facts to support these assertions?

It should be well noted, that this is what we are voting for. This kind of behaviour.

Which kind of behaviour the fear mongering behaviour the No campaign also engages in? To what I'd agree is a far greater degree.

Scaremongering, since your pointing fingers all the time, what kind of scaremongering are we talking about?

See photos above, oh and just about every baseless claim from RtdH made and exposed as a falsehood on this thread. Or did your 4th dimensional sight miss all that?

mysterious

Diogenes wrote: »

Yes using fear and panic to get us to vote is wrong. THAT IS VERY NAUGHTY.

Hey Mysterious wanna seem some of the "No" Campaigns posters?



or





Yes preying on voters fears isn't right, so what do the above posters say about the "No" Campaign?

But these pictures represent a European superstate. Power, is the main point here. Power isn't balance, it isn't democracy. it's force. Right now It's what I call step by step force. Each treaty and each rule, is the direction of supreme control and power. This is the beginning of a super Europe. You don't see it yet, to bad.:P

These are extreme pictures I agree. The message here is trying to wake you up, the extreme image is merely there to get you to think, ofthe probable scenrios. History books can proves these pictures. The Nazis and the Bush Admin can represent these images. Rome bascally had this form of power too, it end up falling and taking over Europe. This is the sexual fantasy of leaders and it will ALWAYs be the case. To reach the top of the pyramid.

Think of Lisbon at the first step on the power pyramid. The NO campaigners are trying to give the image of what the idea of Europe reaching the top of the power pyramid. There is a logic to these extreme images. You could use the images of the devastation of Iraq, and post these up and say this is what the Bush Administration represent. The European elite can do the same if it has the same capacity of power and will too.

I'm not here creating fear or have swinging agenda. I'm just telling you that history will repeat, it's obvious you haven't learned this.

No one thought Cheney and Bush would rage two wars and create a false flag operation within their own country, and create a watch police state and overwrite the constution and had a Iraq war against the people they represent and the UN. Laws are changing at our watch. The president of America can basically take his country into any warzone they like even against the people. Who would of thought this 10 years ago. Who would of thought that their would be 1,000,000 deaths in Iraq. Who would of thought these people would of made 937 documented lies in public. Who would of thought that Bush had alliances with Osama. Who would of thought that the Bush Administration drum fear into their own people just get them into wars.

But you see the problem on this forum with some people here, is lack of a awarness of what supreme power does. This situation here with lisbon is the beginning. the natural process after lisbon, is another treaty and another set of laws and another set of rules and regulations. To the point our soverienety will be questioned. This is the direction. If you look at the last 10 years, it's very logical to say it's valid.

Do you think I'm playing fear, No I'm just knowledgeable to know the agenda, look at history, look at what is going on around me and what the likely scenerio will be.

And those who say if we vote "yes" we will lose all civil liberities, privacy, and the right to control our armies. And if the "No" sides posters are to be believed children will be barcoded and injected with chips, we will all be marked with the sign of the beast, and face nuclear armageddon.

But this will be the case. It's already happening. No one said here, from my knowledge it will do specifically that but if you agree to this agenda, it will happen in a few years. This is human nature. They are rulling people who want to control the planet. It has always been the way. Since they now have the technology to do so, they are more confident in apting to create this reality under our watch. We don't have privacy anymore. We will be taxed more and we will have less freedom if we keep voting yes to these treaties. Do you know who makes these treaties. People in power. Do you trust people in power?

Look at America, and how things have changed there, and it's not getting any better. Look how they used and twisted the constitution. Look at how they used fear and war on terrorism propaganda to play the havok they have created for the last 8 years?

Who would of thought 10 years ago, that they are now trying to rip the amendment of freedom of speech in America. That is what Obamas administration are trying to get rid of. They are starting with censoring the net. It's not just mobiles now. I mean do you not see what is going on currently.

But people like you will refuse to see the present is determining bad a bad future scenario. You might think voting for Lisbon is good or bad. But at the end of the day the Politicans will more power with Lisbon than they do currently now. It is why they are really pushing for it now.

While the No campaign seems to try to make us vote their way out baseless fears.

They are not baseless fears, they are very probable scenerios. The eltes use fear tactics and create fear. Governments use it as a control technique. Give Europe enough power and this will be the case. Logic will tell you this.

Sure look at the Bush administration, some democracy it is. no fear agenda there is there not? No unacceptable behaviour there is there not? It's power. And power to an elite, supergroup such as them or Europe. is opening more of these can of worms. Power supremecy eventually destructs.

I'm not saying it will for a fact happen. But if you look at history, it will clarify it has happened quite alot. Any superpower throughout history has basically aimed for supreme power or global domination. It of course ended up like a dictatorship. Reigning and wiping out million's. For this satacious desire for more power. Why because the power was given to them and they could do what they damned liked. This is what the power to the elite is in a few words. Your right that the Lisbon treaty is not this, but it is a step to this, thats the point I'm trying to make. Because power is not balance. And once the elite wants more power and control. Democracy is eventually non existant. This is the process and where it's going to head.

You give a man more power and you underrule. He will want more power. This is the agenda of Europe.

Just sign the treaty and let the ball roll again. History will start once again. I'm aware some others are too. But some will never be, thats why we have pretty gruesome history books;)

Any facts to support these assertions?

facts on what

Which kind of behaviour the fear mongering behaviour the No campaign also engages in? To what I'd agree is a far greater degree.

If you have read any paper's in the last few months, you will see all sorts of use of language determining this manipulation, force of words and impediment to the point that we are subject to be guilty if we vote no again. You have our own government who didn't read the treaty also telling you to vote yes, and if you don't vote yes, there will be consquences. what does this kind of attitude and behaviour tell you. It's they who want you to vote yes. Then why this behaviour?

This behaviour is disrespectful. Consquences? Are we children? Do we obey?

The leaders of Europe demanded a revote, and not a compromise not a salution and if we dont'there will be consquences.

I just pay attention and see this and not acceptable at all.

See photos above, oh and just about every baseless claim from RtdH made and exposed as a falsehood on this thread. Or did your 4th dimensional sight miss all that?

Power is power, and yes these can happen will likely happen. Just some people look to far ahead;) See your dig at the end, I think your right, 4th and Fifth dimensions is time and choices, so in a way your a step ahead.

Diogenes

mysterious wrote: »

But these pictures represent a European superstate. Power, is the main point here. Power isn't balance, it isn't democracy. it's force. Right now It's what I call step by step force. Each treaty and each rule, is the direction of supreme control and power. This is the beginning of a super Europe.

Ah so when your opposition uses fear, it's "WRONG", when the side you agree with, uses unjustified hyperbola, thats okay.

Wow, thats a neat little double standard you have there.

You don't see it yet, to bad.:P

Ah the 'I am wiser than you, ergo I am right" argument. Appeal from Authority from a vacuum of knowledge.

These are extreme pictures I agree. The message here is trying to wake you up, the extreme image is merely there to get you to think,

Again that wonderful double standard at play. When the other side point out the problems with a no vote, it's "bullying", when the no campaign paint lurid pictures and fiction, it's "thought provoking" :rolleyes: (Oh look we can use smilies in a dismissive manner too! :cool: )

ofthe probable scenrios. History books can proves these pictures. The Nazis and the Bush Admin can represent these images.

And how exactly, using specific examples can you compare the Bush Admin and Nazis to the EU, again using specific examples.

Rome bascally had this form of power too, it end up falling and taking over Europe. This is the sexual fantasy of leaders and it will ALWAYs be the case. To reach the top of the pyramid.

Um, okaaaayyyyy.....

I'm not here creating fear or have swinging agenda. I'm just telling you that history will repeat, it's obvious you haven't learned this.

No one thought Cheney and Bush would rage two wars and create a false flag operation within their own country, and create a watch police state and overwrite the constution and had a Iraq war against the people they represent and the UN. Laws are changing at our watch. The president of America can basically take his country into any warzone they like even against the people. Who would of thought this 10 years ago. Who would of thought that their would be 1,000,000 deaths in Iraq. Who would of thought these people would of made 937 documented lies in public. Who would of thought that Bush had alliances with Osama. Who would of thought that the Bush Administration drum fear into their own people just get them into wars.

And all of the above has to do with the Lisbon treaty (I'm going to regret asking this)

But you see the problem on this forum with some people here, is lack of a awarness of what supreme power does. This situation here with lisbon is the beginning. the natural process after lisbon, is another treaty and another set of laws and another set of rules and regulations. To the point our soverienety will be questioned. This is the direction. If you look at the last 10 years, it's very logical to say it's valid.

Yes, the EU has been opressesing us with the freedom of travel, work, the declaration of rights, the EU court of human rights.

Gosh it's awful.

Do you think I'm playing fear, No I'm just knowledgeable to know the agenda, look at history, look at what is going on around me and what the likely scenerio will be.

I'm sorry claiming you have wisdom beyond my ken is just crap. Offer facts and evidence instead of your juvenile delusional of arrogance is going to earn you a justified place on my ignore list.

Who would of thought 10 years ago, that they are now trying to rip the amendment of freedom of speech in America. That is what Obamas administration are trying to get rid of.

Really where? Offer me a link? I read the news, blogs, I work in news, this one has passed me by. So show it me.

They are starting with censoring the net. It's not just mobiles now. I mean do you not see what is going on currently.

NO. NO I DON'T. And If I was getting my information from you I'd just be ignorant. You make vague unsopported claims, and then to support it with nothing. How are they censoring mobiles? BE SPECIFIC!

I'm not responding to the rest of this, it's wild claims supported with nothing more than prose.

K-9

mysterious wrote: »

It is, the re vote is a conspiracy. The complications of it is too. Why would the elite actually make black and white print hard to understand. I mean if in print, surely they could of made it easier to read. But they had to make it more complex as Ireland is the only country in Europe that has to have a referendum. They thought (or well in my view) we would vote yes out of ignorance.

It's an international Treaty. You ever read complicated legal documents? They aren't easy to read in general.

mysterious wrote: »

For the love of god, I read about two pages and had enough of this lick arse waffle.

I'm confused that you said you read it but now it appears you didn't, or else after TWO pages, gave up on it.

mysterious

Diogenes wrote: »

Ah so when your opposition uses fear, it's "WRONG", when the side you agree with, uses unjustified hyperbola, thats okay.

Wow, thats a neat little double standard you have there.

Diogenes don't twist my words.
I never said fear was right. I said it was an extreme case, I didn't defend it. I did just merely point out they are probable scenerios when your considering a superstate Europe into this perspective.

Power is what creates this madness. These pictures are no different to what's in the history books. The No campaginers are showing pictures that relate to the past of where power and politics have created this and rosed from.

I specifically did state the elite on the other hand create fear, use fear and play fear. like war on terror, for example. Completely made up. Where as the pictures above are real scenrious and do hold resonance to past events

This is the difference I was pointing out, so please don't twist it, to suit your on the attack kneejerks.

Ah the 'I am wiser than you, ergo I am right" argument. Appeal from Authority from a vacuum of knowledge.

Less of the personal jabs and lets dicucss this topic. If it was about my ego, I'd be talking about myself. I never stated anything about myself on this issue ffs. Where did I say I was right? I can stand here now and say I'm not always right and never assumed that I would be I can perfectly admit to been wrong, doesn't affect me whatsover. The important thing for me is to learn from my mistakes, so I'm happy to be pointed out where I was wrong on any stance. But Since you made it personal, I've realised I've waffled off topic. geee.

Again that wonderful double standard at play. When the other side point out the problems with a no vote, it's "bullying", when the no campaign paint lurid pictures and fiction, it's "thought provoking" :rolleyes: (Oh look we can use smilies in a dismissive manner too! :cool: )

Right Not going to get into "that"

And how exactly, using specific examples can you compare the Bush Admin and Nazis to the EU, again using specific examples.

I already did, they are both powers, they are both leading and wanting to futher the hegomy of their state/power. I gave examples in my last post.

Yes, the EU has been opressesing us with the freedom of travel, work, the declaration of rights, the EU court of human rights.

Yes as I once said, things can be great, democracy can be great. But if you give to much power and to much self submission to this system, it will turn on you and corrupt. G.W.B was lovely when he fist took office wasn't he, till he just took off ,of course, then we saw the tyranny.

I'm just looking at things with a broad view.

I'm sorry claiming you have wisdom beyond my ken is just crap. Offer facts and evidence instead of your juvenile delusional of arrogance is going to earn you a justified place on my ignore list.

Just wow. This is your projections here not mine Diogenes. I'm pretty tactful in reasonable in my post. But if you really need to put me on your ignore list to counter this anger and reaction, by all means do.

Really where? Offer me a link? I read the news, blogs, I work in news, this one has passed me by. So show it me.

Newspapers, Irish times specifically I can't give the exact date, cus this lisbon stuff was in the papers months ago, But it was pretty in the papers, alot of times I've been reading them. I've watched Sarcosy on various clips on what he said. it's well well documentated.

It was dicussed widely on here, on the views of Europe about Ireland's result. Have you been hiding or what?

NO. NO I DON'T. And If I was getting my information from you I'd just be ignorant. You make vague unsopported claims, and then to support it with nothing. How are they censoring mobiles? BE SPECIFIC!

About what? What would you like me to be more specific about? I've given a pretty detailed long post.

I'm not responding to the rest of this, it's wild claims supported with nothing more than prose.

No one forced you too. If you dissagree with me fair enough, but the level of attacks is just immature for the sake of replying with these responses seriously, ??

mysterious

K-9 wrote: »

I'm confused that you said you read it but now it appears you didn't, or else after TWO pages, gave up on it.

I did read it second time replying to this specifically explaining to you. I said I read it when it first came out. And I read the amendments on another forum a year ago. I can't find it now. It's been a year since I've read it. I did say i need to read it again.

I searched the net two days ago and 237page p.d.f came up and I read two pages, my eyes were peeling.

I want to get the leaflet showing the exact amendaments again.

King Mob

mysterious wrote: »

But you see, they like to bully us and use fear and panick factor into our vote. That is wrong.

Oh hey like some elements of the No campaign.
Can you point out examples from the Yes side?

mysterious wrote: »

The elites, to say notions as there will be grave consquences for Ireland voting No again.

This really is inappropriate and really does defeat the purpose of voting in the first place. They are hoping we will vote out of guilt.

Who said anything about "grave consequences?"

mysterious wrote: »

I won't for sure. I'm a fan of respect and self dignity. I don't see this coming from Europe in any capactiy. This kind of behaviour does have a reason to be mentioned and pointed out in this current agenda.

It should be well noted, that this is what we are voting for. This kind of behaviour.

How is europe not a fan respect and self dignity?

mysterious wrote: »

Scaremongering, since your pointing fingers all the time, what kind of scaremongering are we talking about?

Diogenes provided some prefect examples.
And your claims of course.

mysterious wrote: »

The elite wanting us to vote yes and only yes and if we dont there will be consquences, king mob you have a habit of selective thinking here.

And again where are you getting this from?
Maybe you are the one being selective.

mysterious wrote: »

If you think democracy is real, then it's fantasy land your thinking of, we on earth had never democracy. Power and democracy just dont work with mankind.

What is happening here, is a false impreession of democracy. Give a man, country, superstate enough power it will turn into a one man power system.

We will see whos right in ten years time eh.;)

This is the direction of Europe, you might not see it yet though

So yea, scaremongering pure and simple..

Diogenes

mysterious wrote: »

Diogenes don't twist my words.
I never said fear was right.
I said it was an extreme case, I didn't defend it. I did just merely point out they are probable scenerios when your considering a superstate Europe into this perspective.

No you said

yoy wrote:

But you see, they like to bully us and use fear and panick factor into our vote. That is wrong.

Theres nothing in the Lisbon treaty about putting microchips in our babies arms, or nuclear war, or barcoding your head.

YOU said using fear to influence an election is wrong. You're flim flamming about the No vote using fear. You're now saying that using posters that suggest what you think is the potential worse case scenario of a yes vote is okay.

Do you suffer from an irony deficiency?

Power is what creates this madness. These pictures are no different to what's in the history books.

Accept they are claiming that "this is what will happen if theres a yes vote" Without explaining which parts of yes vote will make this happen.

I specifically did state the elite on the other hand create fear,

By putting up posters with Mushroom clouds. No wait that'd be the "No" campaign.

use fear and play fear. like war on terror, for example. Completely made up. Where as the pictures above are real scenrious and do hold resonance to past events

Could you offer a real scenario based on the Lisbon treaty were children will be injected with microchips.

This is the difference I was pointing out, so please don't twist it, to suit your on the attack kneejerks.

Theres no difference. Well there is, the "Yes" campaign didn't suggest that if we didn't vote yes to the Lisbon treaty by suggesting we'd be nuked, our children would be microchipped and we'd have barcodes on our heads.

Less of the personal jabs and lets dicucss this topic. If it was about my ego, I'd be talking about myself. I never stated anything about myself on this issue ffs. Where did I say I was right?

You've consistently claimed you have some mystical insight on all issues.

I can stand here now and say I'm not always right and never assumed that I would be I can perfectly admit to been wrong, doesn't affect me whatsover.

Ahem;

You wrote:

But you see the problem on this forum with some people here, is lack of a awarness of what supreme power does.

You wrote:

This is the sexual fantasy of leaders and it will ALWAYs be the case. To reach the top of the pyramid.

You've made several broad claims in your last two posts, and havent backed them up.

Right Not going to get into "that"

Because it exposes your hypocrisy?

I already did, they are both powers, they are both leading and wanting to futher the hegomy of their state/power. I gave examples in my last post.

No you just pointed out both leaders and claimed they were the same, you offered no examples.

Newspapers, Irish times specifically I can't give the exact date, cus this lisbon stuff was in the papers months ago, But it was pretty in the papers, alot of times I've been reading them. I've watched Sarcosy on various clips on what he said. it's well well documentated.

Ah so Obama, is dismantling the first amendment and it's like totally well documented, but you well can't find it.

Excuse me if I go on a lil nuts


:cool::cool::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::pac::pac::pac::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

mysterious

King Mob wrote: »

Diogenes provided some prefect examples.
And your claims of course.

I gave them, your selective reading eh, not surprised

And again where are you getting this from?
Maybe you are the one being selective.

From Europe.

So yea, scaremongering pure and simple..

Point out where I used scaremongering? pure and simple is the definition for what scaremongering

Pleaee state, where you bate my words.:)