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Playing late regularly [+ Professional Poker Playing Lifestyle Discussion]
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I have been playing poker regularly for about a year now. I spend alot of time during the day doing the online grind (from maybe 3pm-7pm) and then at night I may play a live tournament followed by live cash (9pm-3am). This is not everyday of course. Most days are the online grind and then a live cash game at night. I take days off aswell. I find it tough mainly because of the way poker has evolved around the early hours. I would much prefer if live cash games were booming from 9m till 1am instead of only filling up at 1am. Im not sure why this is the case. Most people who play these live cash games have jobs and have to be up 3-4 hours after they leave the game. Why cant casinoes start cash games earlier in the night? Does no one want to play at a decent hour?0
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Treehouse72 wrote: »Whoa, now hang on a goddam moment.
1. Away from work, full time poker players have exactly the same responsibilites and committments as you do - families, kids, bills, constraints on time and so forth. Quite why you should think otherwise is beyond me and frankly I find it insulting, as though I piss around without a care in the world except moaning about playing poker. I don't like your condescending implication that we are somehow separate from society and normality. We are not.
2. You say you have a job to worry about: yeah, so do we and it's called poker. You have the financial security of your job to fall back on, we do not. You seem to have no conception of the level of emotional and financial commitment relying on poker requires, nor the pressure and stress of having to make money month in, month out exerts.
3. Yes, playing against the regs in the daytime is tougher than the evening. Much tougher. Much, much tougher. Good luck trying to grind the rent out of dozens of 14/13 rakeback pros from Hungary or 25/23 child geniuses from Sweden. It's like poker, just less fun, sometimes a bloody hell of a lot less fun.
4. If you work 10/12 hour days, good for you. I usually work 5 or 6 hours a day and often up to 8. Every single minute of that is concentration - that is not the same as work in most real-world jobs. When I think of previous jobs I've had in the real world, out of an 8 hour day, I'd have an hour for lunch, and I'd piss away another hour in coffee breaks. Add to that the time you surf the net or send personal emails or call your girlfriend, and a large chunk of that 8 hour day is gone. And concentrating on 1,000 decisions in an hour is not the same as "working" on an email for an hour (which I have done myself many times in the past) in terms of concentration.
Oh, and I work 7 days a week....do you? Every day. I take maybe 2 days off a month, or maybe 4 half-days. No more. Been doing that for over 2 years now. I played on my birthday last month, and will play some hands for RB on Christmas and NY day, as I did last year. If I want to go out on a Saturday night, I don't get a lie in that morning and I have to skip Football Focus cause I need to get my hands in before disco time. And when I wake up hung-over on Sunday I don't have the luxury of not being arsed. I tell you, needing to grind out even 1,000 hands over 2 hours on a hungover, gloomy Sunday is not my idea of fun.
5. By all means talk about laziness, but you would be pretty silly to direct that accusation at anyone trying to make a living at poker, because most of us try to be professional: getting up early, concentrating, trying to eat well, stay exercised, do research etc. etc. Any suggestion most pros piss around getting stoned and watching Loose Women all day is wide of the mark.
Not sure you thought through your post.
I ll try put this as simply as I can without trying to sound too condescending but my friend you need to get a new job.
7 days a week grinding out hands like you do to me would be soul destroying. You seem to have no balance in your life, no time for other activities and you sound so obsessed with reaching your target hands per day that you are obviously sacrificing so so much on the quality of life side of things. What you are doing cannot be enjoyable.. You are in fact ''somehow seperate from normality and society'' if your poker career impacts so drastically on your quality of life to force you to miss birthdays etc etc and find it necessary to play hands on Christmas day or New years day.
You hark on about financial stability and needing to pay bills etc etc. Well if you need to play 7 days, Christmas days, birthdays & New years day then I would respectfully suggest you are not profitable enough and maybe need to consider other options (maybe in poker or maybe out of poker).
I work for myself. For all intents and purposes I am in sales. I am only as financially stable as the next piece of buiness I do or sale I complete. However I do not need to nor would I dream of working 7 days a week or sacrificing the things in life that you forego to play poker and earn your crust.
You mention that having a real job provides financial security for people to fall back on yet you dont have this financial security to rely on while playing poker. This statement alone would suggest to me you need to reconsider your career.
You also suggest that jackyback or people with real jobs dont understand or have any conception of having to earn money month in month out to pay bills etc and the pressures that accompany that situation. To this I would say that every person in gainful employment at every level of the social ladder suffers the same anxieties you describe. This is the reason people go to work. I would also include the umemployed sector who realistically face this financial insecurity every day and who's financial pressures are probably hugely magnified due to their circumstances. These people worry about paying an ESB bill without the security of a job and yet you worry about paying bills WITH the seurity of a job.
There is much more to life than needind to work 7 days a week even if it is for only 5-6 hours per day. And if needing to play on Christmas day etc is what pays the bills then maybe consider other career options.
Jay0 -
Treehouse72 wrote: »Digiman, your comments are not far off the truth. I am a very mediocre poker player. My winrates at 50/100/200 are 5/2.5/1.5 BB/100 over hundreds of thousands of hands at 50/100 and 100k hands at 200NL (and I still don't feel comfortable at 200NL). That is very average I fully acknowledge.
My winrate when I first stated full time was much better - I think 6BB/100 at 100NL over 100k hands, but that was nearly 3 years ago and it is a lot tougher now than it was then. I also suspect that I am only now in the mid-term/early long-term with my stats so perhaps they are only converging now. Those winrates typically bring me in no less than €3k. If I have been mainly at 200NL one month, the RB alone is almost that much, so on those 200NL months when I run well I can earn a lot more. I only gave the €3k figure as a bedrock amount I feel I can grind out even if I am playing/running bad or even if I have to drop down. I don't like getting ahead of myself and always prefer to assume the minimum amount I can earn, and I have not been earning more than €3k long enough to be arrogant enough to definitively say my income is €5k pm. Slowly, slowly cathcy monkey.
But all this is only partly about poker skill. It is as much about having an aptitude to grind coupled with a desire not to do a real job. If you have those two things in place, you can make the money with even modest skills. None of my posts in this thread are meant to come accross as "I'm a poker pro listen to me". That's not it at all. I don't even call myself a pro - I call myself a full-time player, which is a less loaded term. I make absolutely no claims to being a good player - I just think I have an insight into the lifestyle. So I'm just an average grinder - but a grinder has as much right to exist as a balla. Different strokes.
Finally, everyone seems to have taken my gloomy initial post as a sign everything is awful in my universe. That is very far from the truth. That post was just gloomy because the poster I was responding to was suggesting we have it easy - I was trying to show the worst parts of it. In reality, I have a perfectly normal life - I go to the gym, eat well, see my friends and family, rent a nice apartment, don't drink a lot, don't gamble (lol), and have perfectly good mental health. I treat poker like a job. 9-5, bang, done. It's really not a big deal.
Ed: Meant to say somewhere - I don't play 70k hands a month. It's usually 45 - 60k.
Apologies for my rant above as I ve just read this post now..0 -
Treehouse72 wrote: »lol. It's like mini-2+2 in here, only with less humour and more pomposity.
I only made such a negative post because the original poster implied full timers were unjustified in moaning about having to play "only" 5 hours a day. If his post had been about how terrible it must be to play full time, I would have written a post just as long explaining the many upsides to being full time. Like not having to sit on the M50 for 2 hours a day, not getting stressed by idiotic work colleagues, not being just another schlub in the rat race, not having a boss to suck up to, not paying taxes, being able to mix up your hours, the money you save in transport/lunches/work clothes etc etc. I f***ing LOVE what I do for a living, but the point of my post was that it is a job, just like any other job with good bits and bad bits, and one you need to take seriously. This crap about "I play for 3 hours when I get home from work so what's the big deal?" is just so much nonsense.
........
Jack - please tell me what part of your post I misinterpreted and I'll gladly apologise. And I notice you say I cannot beat 10c/20c....so presumably you think I make a living at a level I can beat, like .05c/10c? Yah, that makes sense.
El Stuntman - self-serving? Do you know what a tautology is? If not, look it up, because your accusation is a perfect example of such a thing. Call my post ranty, or bitter, or whatever you like, but to accuse a post whose purpose is self-justification of being self-serving is, well, tautological.
HIVEindohoven - nice handle, you sound like a classy guy. And what's with the checkboxes? Are you 17? I have had real jobs. In fact, I used to have my dream job before doing this full time, which I would guess is more than you have ever achieved. So, [x] Go f*** yourself.
Ted - "playing as much as I say"? I said I play 5 hours a day 7 days a week. 35 hours a week. The poster I was responding to claims to work no less than 50 - 60 hours a week, and no doubt has commuting to include on top of that. So if you are going to patronise me, you should at least get your sums right.
Zap - I earn about €3,000 per month net, which is the equivalent take-home of a €50k salary. And I don't have the associated costs of working to come out of that (transport, lunch, clothes etc.). My only work expenses are a Deuces Cracked sub (€25 or whatever it is). So I am not a balla, but I am comfortable with this income for a 35 hour working week.
LL - yes, my post was too heated, but thank you for at least seeing a grain of truth in what I was saying.
Nice little group-thinking echo chamber you guys have going on in here.
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Ed: MDWexford - you're right, my post was OTT at points for sure.
Lol having read this post I now take back my above apology...0 -
Jay, ffs, just because I rely on my poker income does not mean I have been idiotic enough to play full time without a sound financial footing. I sold a business I ran just over 2 years ago, giving me a large cushion. And I have not a penny of debt in the world. So please take it easy with your assumptions that I need to make my RB like a junky needs his score.
The point about grinding and getting hands in is discipline. Just like the discipline it takes to go to work in the morning and do that work well. It is no different and I don't know how you can so blithely assume that it is an inferior lifestyle choice to the rat race. By all means hold that opinion, but your attitude that the rat race is objectively superior is crass. Jesus, I get a sore ear listening to friends and acquaintances moaning about the hum-drum of working life and how they'd like to break free blah blah blah. Working life sucks for most people. Most people hate getting out of bed in the morning. As did I, so instead of moaning about it I set up a business and started playing semi-pro. Then, sold the business, went full time. You make it sound like I am a child with no experience of the world.
And for the millionth time: I work about 35 hours a week. If I choose to spread that over 2 days or 7 days is my choice. If I choose to work Christmas day it is only because I chose not to work a full 8 hour day on Christmas Eve. I can change this routine anytime, which is what this thread was originally about. I say someone on a €50k a year salary working 35 hours a week is hardly worthy of the pained sympathy you are suggesting.You seem to have no balance in your life, no time for other activities and you sound so obsessed with reaching your target hands per day that you are obviously sacrificing so so much on the quality of life side of things.
With respect, how in the name of God would you know? You belatedly saw my post at the top of this page which explains that what you are saying is not true and I find it really weird that you would assume these things, none of which are difficult to achieve working 5 hours a day with no commuting.
No hard feelings. Really can't be arsed fighting about this, it's just your post is so presumptive based on one ratty post I made because I was angry at the suggestion that a 5 hour poker day was lazy. If you wrote a post about all the bad things in your job, it would read like a suicide note too.0 -
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for all you full time guys pushing out every possible chance of expectation at the tables late every night, how about considering a different time zone if your social schedule already seems to be fecked up perhaps... ??
if your considering playing "professially" it must be considered surely,,,>>?
se asia..----dance with ladyboys..
auz..
dance with aboriginies
s.america..--dance with guinea pigs
u.s..
dance with hot ass finest ladys eva
most with fairly similiar living standards and costs, it must be considered..0 -
Treehouse72 wrote: »No hard feelings. Really can't be arsed fighting about this, it's just your post is so presumptive based on one ratty post I made because I was angry at the suggestion that a 5 hour poker day was lazy. If you wrote a post about all the bad things in your job, it would read like a suicide note too.
Fair dues. imo the jist(i.e minus the rattiness) of what you have been saying is bang on. Also getting back to the clubiness nature of the forum... I think you have a point .... the least helpful post in the whole thread gets the most thanks just coz it came from Pillowtalk, while you as a relative newbie have got a fair bit of flak. Nature of forums I suppose :rolleyes:for all you full time guys pushing out every possible chance of expectation at the tables late every night, how about considering a different time zone if your social schedule already seems to be fecked up perhaps... ??
if your considering playing "professially" it must be considered surely,,,>>?
se asia..----dance with ladyboys..
auz..
dance with aboriginies
s.america..--dance with guinea pigs
u.s..
dance with hot ass finest ladys eva
most with fairly similiar living standards and costs, it must be considered..
If I wasn't married I'd seriously consider moving to another timezone. West coast of the US would be ideal timezone wise imo, but the legal situation re online poker in the States puts a dampener on that. Next best would be South America or New Zealand imo.0 -
cardshark202 wrote: »Playing during the day is far healthier in the long term. Can't remember where I read this but someone who works nights for most of there life will lose something like 10 years off there life expectancy or something like that. I used to play during the nights 'cos the games would always be better but the trade off of sleeping less at more erratic times and often missing a lot of other daytime activities meant that it wasn't worth it. Playing during the day also means you lead a more 'normal' life and allows to socialise more with your non-poker-playing friends. Since I started playing during the day I've felt much healthier and have been way more active
How true is this...surely u cant be serious...0 -
Also how many of u sick individuals can honestly say at sometime during christmas day after a few tipples that u wont sneak off, turn the laptop on and have a crack...
Playing a good small stake PLO game for the laugh>listening to her mother talking abolute garbage...
But seriously u shouldnt have to work ur usual grind on Christmas Day or any days over the holidays....thats the biggest perk of playing poker for a living. I dont understand if u only play 35hrs a week why u have to work christmas day....ffs...take a couple of weeks off...0 -
LL - tx.0
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If memory serves, it's not night shift as such that fecks ye, it's different changing shifts and so missing out on sleep, so playing poker til the wee hours and sleeping til midday should be fine.
Any poker player (under 60) who's worried about the last 10 years of his life is in the 1 percentile of the minority, I'd have thought.
I'm pretty sure I can make sure I'm run down by a bus before then.0 -
Any poker player (under 60) who's worried about the last 10 years of his life is in the 1 percentile of the minority, I'd have thought.
I think you are way off the mark on that one.
I play poker, as opposed to being a poker player. I am under 60. I certainly do not want to die prematurely.
Add to that the fact i work shift. 12 hour shifts on a rotating pattern. I will work 2 nights, have 2 off, work 3 have 2 off, work 2 and have 3 off. 4 weeks of days, 4 weeks of nights.
Its akin to being jetlagged 3 times a week.
Damn right i want those last 10 years ! Thats when i can retire and be a poker player.......lol0 -
Treehouse72 wrote: »Jay, ffs, just because I rely on my poker income does not mean I have been idiotic enough to play full time without a sound financial footing. I sold a business I ran just over 2 years ago, giving me a large cushion. And I have not a penny of debt in the world. So please take it easy with your assumptions that I need to make my RB like a junky needs his score.
Your rant in your post suggested to me that due to the times you spent playing hands you needed to make RB and hit targets. You never mentioned that you were financially sound although this is irrelevant if your still playing on birthdays etc. My assumptions were only ever based on what you ve said in your posts. Most of my post was directed at you having no balance in your life which I ''assumed'' only from your references to playing christmas day etc.The point about grinding and getting hands in is discipline. Just like the discipline it takes to go to work in the morning and do that work well. It is no different and I don't know how you can so blithely assume that it is an inferior lifestyle choice to the rat race. By all means hold that opinion, but your attitude that the rat race is objectively superior is crass. Jesus, I get a sore ear listening to friends and acquaintances moaning about the hum-drum of working life and how they'd like to break free blah blah blah. Working life sucks for most people. Most people hate getting out of bed in the morning. As did I, so instead of moaning about it I set up a business and started playing semi-pro. Then, sold the business, went full time. You make it sound like I am a child with no experience of the world.
I never once suggested it was an inferior lifestyle to the rat race nor do I hold that opinion. I would like to have the balls to play full time but with having a family,mortgage, bills etc and with being a pretty average poker player I think I ll stay in this rat race for a while. You too have said you are a pretty average player and you honestly made it sound so horrendous in your posts that there should be an easier and more enjoyable way to make €3k per month.And for the millionth time: I work about 35 hours a week. If I choose to spread that over 2 days or 7 days is my choice. If I choose to work Christmas day it is only because I chose not to work a full 8 hour day on Christmas Eve.
This was not obvious to me in your posts.No hard feelings. Really can't be arsed fighting about this, it's just your post is so presumptive based on one ratty post I made because I was angry at the suggestion that a 5 hour poker day was lazy. If you wrote a post about all the bad things in your job, it would read like a suicide note too.
No body is fighting with anyone here. I responded to your post then apologised after i read further posts, then withdrew that apology after you ranted on again at other posters. If you are going to post stuff you need to be able to accept some criticisim. It appears you are not able to accept some differing opinions in this thread.0 -
[x] thread delivers0
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Jayminator wrote: »I never once suggested it was an inferior lifestyle to the rat race nor do I hold that opinion. I would like to have the balls to play full time but with having a family,mortgage, bills etc and with being a pretty average poker player I think I ll stay in this rat race for a while. You too have said you are a pretty average player and you honestly made it sound so horrendous in your posts that there should be an easier and more enjoyable way to make €3k per month.
No body is fighting with anyone here. I responded to your post then apologised after i read further posts, then withdrew that apology after you ranted on again at other posters. If you are going to post stuff you need to be able to accept some criticisim. It appears you are not able to accept some differing opinions in this thread.
Don't listen to him treehouse he is a massive losing player anyway, doesn't know his poker arse from his poker elbow.0 -
goodluck2me wrote: »Don't listen to him treehouse he is a massive losing player anyway, doesn't know his poker arse from his poker elbow.
What's the difference between a poker arse and a poker elbow?0 -
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goodluck2me wrote: »Don't listen to him treehouse he is a massive losing player anyway, doesn't know his poker arse from his poker elbow.
This is so so so true....0 -
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Someone else offend Treehouse, I like the way he defends himself - eloquent with a hint of bitterness. My kind of poster. Make sure you frequent the bad beat thread a bit where the world is put to rights (assuming the world = TV shows + football).0
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