Killarney Thread

ORACLE2

Boom__Boom wrote: »

The thing is that everyone knows the crowd that come with the rally are very poor spenders - the businesses that make the most out of them are probably the petrol stations and the fast food joints. Beyond that I would say a lot of local businesses make a lot less than unusual for a bank holiday.

I was talking to a jarvey yesterday and he was saying they were very quiet due to the nature of the crowd - really wouldnt be surprised if that was the case in a lot of other Killarney businesses.

Even in terms of pubs/bars i'd imagine a serious fraction of those who come with the rally are of an age profile to be buying cans in the supermarket (if they are drinking) and pre-drinking before heading out to bars, so while the bars are busy I find it hard to see it as massively profitable for bars.

In terms of accommodation spend, I'd imagine it would be the case that a lot of hotels and B&Bs would prefer an older clientele who are less hassle - I'm sure everyone has heard/seen lads who sleep in their cars for the night.

How many people leave the town or avoid visiting the weekend the rally is on ?

I really think the town would be a lot before off economically by getting rid of the rally and replacing it with a better/more profitable event on the bank holiday weekend and get rid of the anti-social behaviour.

Get rid of the rally and let the decent spending tourists and locals enjoy the town.

I am a Rally follower with nearly 35 years and I would like to think that I am a decent spending Tourist or Visitor like anyone else,a lot of good genuine people like myself visit Killarney every year for the Rally and in doing so contribute quite a bit to the Local Economy,around 150 Crews approx took part in this Years Event and quite a few travelled from the UK, Europe and a couple even from the US,they all have Back Up Team Personnel with them and add in over 1000 Volunteers who Organise, Marshall, Steward etc,well then you can imagine many of these people along with followers of the Event stay in the Town and Surrounding Area and spend money while they are in the Area,this is all contributing to the Local Economy surely.
Like yourself I despise the behaviour of these Yobs that go around in there Modified Dinky Cars making noise and causing trouble,they are not interested in the Rally and I can assure you the Genuine people involved in Rallying be they Competitor, Organiser, Follower or whatever are not interested in them either,we too would prefer if they stay at home but please dont TAR us all with the same brush,I can assure you that the Genuine Rally Follower is a far cry from these Boy Racer/Trouble Makers.

Boom__Boom

abceire wrote: »

60,000 visitors is still going to bring a lot of money, cans in supermarket, the supermarket is a business, the fast food places are a business, the petrol stations are a business. It's a pity they can't just get maybe a load of the real non wally rally fans to police the others, shame them into copping on, something like video it and send it to police with reg plates.
At the end of that day though , some rubbish on the ground and black marks on a road. It's not exactly the hell we might think it is.

ORACLE2 wrote: »

I am a Rally follower with nearly 35 years and I would like to think that I am a decent spending Tourist or Visitor like anyone else,a lot of good genuine people like myself visit Killarney every year for the Rally and in doing so contribute quite a bit to the Local Economy,around 150 Crews approx took part in this Years Event and quite a few travelled from the UK, Europe and a couple even from the US,they all have Back Up Team Personnel with them and add in over 1000 Volunteers who Organise, Marshall, Steward etc,well then you can imagine many of these people along with followers of the Event stay in the Town and Surrounding Area and spend money while they are in the Area,this is all contributing to the Local Economy surely.
Like yourself I despise the behaviour of these Yobs that go around in there Modified Dinky Cars making noise and causing trouble,they are not interested in the Rally and I can assure you the Genuine people involved in Rallying be they Competitor, Organiser, Follower or whatever are not interested in them either,we too would prefer if they stay at home but please dont TAR us all with the same brush,I can assure you that the Genuine Rally Follower is a far cry from these Boy Racer/Trouble Makers.

The thing is this is irrelevant in a sense - obviously no-one thinks that all rally fans are yobs but the problem is that these yobs only turn up in Killarney when the rally turns up, so people see the rally as being responsible.

Killarney loves visitors and holding events ; pretty much everyone understands how important people coming to town is in terms of jobs. However there's stuff on every weekend and a hell of a lot of big weekends - the Ring of Kerry cycle, Munster finals, the Irish Open when it was on, World Dancing Championships, a while back and the only event that brings serious antisocial behaviour to the town on a constant basis is the rally. The Motorcycle weekend on the June Bank holidays is massively popular (can't ever recall hearing anyone giving out about it and everyone all says that the bikers are much better spenders than the rally) so it's not a case of being anti-engine. Basically when you compare the crowd that the rally brings to Killarney to any other crowd/event, the rally ends up coming out on the bottom of the pile.

I can totally understand the genuine rally fans hate being lumped in with the yobs and it's clear that it's only a small minority of fools acting the moron, but to locals its a case of the rally turns up and you get the boy racers, the antisocial behaviour, the dumping of rubbish (not confined to just this weekend sadly but still seemed very prevalent this weekend) - a friend of my mother's had a bunch of boy racers dump cans into her front garden in town on Saturday night right in front of her [sadly she didnt think to ring the Guards] she has had cans and bottles dumped in her garden before, but this was the first time someone had blatantly done it in front of her with no shame.

I'm not denying that there is a spend from the rally but in terms of being compared to other visitors to Killarney the average rally spender is regarded by pretty much everyone in the tourist industry as a poor spender. I don't really like talking about visitors/tourists in terms of their spend but when the spend isn't particularly great anyway, it makes the case for getting rid of the rally even stronger.

I'm convinced that it would be very easy to replace the rally with some other event(or number of smaller events) on the May bank holiday that would bring in much more money overall and cause way less hassle, plus there wouldnt be the need for the taxpayer to foot the bill for all the extra Gardai. The Wings for Life event on Sunday had 5,000 runners for instance and caused little to no bother. Even if the rally wasn't on and no event replaced it I think there are very few businesses that would be worse off - the Gleneagle seems to have no problems with occupancy every other weekend in the year so I say the only places I think that would see their takings suffer are the petrol stations.

Long-term I think it's only a matter of time before the Rally goes - there are some people who benefit but the number it annoys and those who will say it's not worth the hassle seems to be growing and I reckon it's only a matter of time before there is an organised campaign against it. Honestly I'm surprised that some politician hasn't already positioned themselves as an anti-rally candidate.

whisky_galore

Do the rallying bodies and more importantly do responsible rally fans do anything other than tut-tut and shake their heads at the behaviour or try to ignore it as if it would go away by itself? The followers of the other events, by and large, are sort of self policing, having a critical mass of mature people. The rallies have got a small, yet really noticeable number of complete twats as hangers on that seems to be a permanent feature.

floydmoon1

Would be great if the guards could get number plates of these.

There is also some other videos already up on youtube of what was happening during the weekend.

I cant see why guards cant go undercover and video all this and note all license plates for prosecution.

I am sure members of the public might be inclined to do their own survellience next year.

wotswattage

First off lets remember that 2001 was just as bad a year as any for the boy racers/antisocial behavior.

whisky_galore wrote: »

Do the rallying bodies and more importantly do responsible rally fans do anything other than tut-tut and shake their heads at the behaviour or try to ignore it as if it would go away by itself? The followers of the other events, by and large, are sort of self policing, having a critical mass of mature people. The rallies have got a small, yet really noticeable number of complete twats as hangers on that seems to be a permanent feature.

The problem is with the legislation which is used to combat the boy racer problem.

I report someone acting like a hooligan on a road at night. Unless the Gardai see it themselves and actually stop the car there is no way of proving who the driver was. Even then he/she can say they swapped with the passenger and it may not stand up in court.

The Gardai can only stop, arrest and process so many of these yobs at a time. Me or you handing them reg plate numbers won't achieve anything other than alerting them to keep an eye out for someone who they'd be keeping an eye out for anyway.

The motor clubs, governing bodies and ordinary citizens need to push for changes to be made so Gardai can deal with this effectively.

Boom__Boom wrote: »

A special sitting of the courts in Cork today apparently.

Remember folks to mention the nuisance of the rally when the politicians come canvassing for the locals.

Mention the fact that our politicians (legislators) haven't/won't legislate to fix the problem and allow Gardai and citizens alike to combat this. Otherwise the rally will be lost and the 59000 decent people who come to Killarney for the long weekend will go somewhere else...

wotswattage

floydmoon1 wrote: »

Would be great if the guards could get number plates of these.

There is also some other videos already up on youtube of what was happening during the weekend.

I cant see why guards cant go undercover and video all this and note all license plates for prosecution.

I am sure members of the public might be inclined to do their own survellience next year.

They do go undercover but it's still very hard to pin something down on someone.
Even in that video you can hardly make out the drivers of most of the cars so who do you prosecute? The driver will just say he/she wasn't driving at the time. It's a farce really but unless the laws are changed this will continue with Gardai seizing 15 out of 400 odd of these cars each year...

abceire

whisky_galore wrote: »

Do the rallying bodies and more importantly do responsible rally fans do anything other than tut-tut and shake their heads at the behaviour or try to ignore it as if it would go away by itself? The followers of the other events, by and large, are sort of self policing, having a critical mass of mature people. The rallies have got a small, yet really noticeable number of complete twats as hangers on that seems to be a permanent feature.

What kind of things could the rally fans do?
I suppose some want nothing to do with the wally.
Also if you go to watch a football match, you don't expect to have to police it too aswell as watch it.

whisky_galore

abceire wrote: »

Also if you go to watch a football match, you don't expect to have to police it too aswell as watch it.

If it could be compared to a match, it would be like a small percentage of the crowd would be acting the gowl outside the stadium long after everyone else had gone home. All the other events seem to have a majority of 'mature' people, or families or different ages groups mixing, these lads just seem to head off at some point and do their own thing to the annoyance of normal folk.

abceire

Boom__Boom wrote: »

The thing is this is irrelevant in a sense - obviously no-one thinks that all rally fans are yobs but the problem is that these yobs only turn up in Killarney when the rally turns up, so people see the rally as being responsible.

Killarney loves visitors and holding events ; pretty much everyone understands how important people coming to town is in terms of jobs. However there's stuff on every weekend and a hell of a lot of big weekends - the Ring of Kerry cycle, Munster finals, the Irish Open when it was on, World Dancing Championships, a while back and the only event that brings serious antisocial behaviour to the town on a constant basis is the rally. The Motorcycle weekend on the June Bank holidays is massively popular (can't ever recall hearing anyone giving out about it and everyone all says that the bikers are much better spenders than the rally) so it's not a case of being anti-engine. Basically when you compare the crowd that the rally brings to Killarney to any other crowd/event, the rally ends up coming out on the bottom of the pile.

I can totally understand the genuine rally fans hate being lumped in with the yobs and it's clear that it's only a small minority of fools acting the moron, but to locals its a case of the rally turns up and you get the boy racers, the antisocial behaviour, the dumping of rubbish (not confined to just this weekend sadly but still seemed very prevalent this weekend) - a friend of my mother's had a bunch of boy racers dump cans into her front garden in town on Saturday night right in front of her [sadly she didnt think to ring the Guards] she has had cans and bottles dumped in her garden before, but this was the first time someone had blatantly done it in front of her with no shame.

I'm not denying that there is a spend from the rally but in terms of being compared to other visitors to Killarney the average rally spender is regarded by pretty much everyone in the tourist industry as a poor spender. I don't really like talking about visitors/tourists in terms of their spend but when the spend isn't particularly great anyway, it makes the case for getting rid of the rally even stronger.

I'm convinced that it would be very easy to replace the rally with some other event(or number of smaller events) on the May bank holiday that would bring in much more money overall and cause way less hassle, plus there wouldnt be the need for the taxpayer to foot the bill for all the extra Gardai. The Wings for Life event on Sunday had 5,000 runners for instance and caused little to no bother. Even if the rally wasn't on and no event replaced it I think there are very few businesses that would be worse off - the Gleneagle seems to have no problems with occupancy every other weekend in the year so I say the only places I think that would see their takings suffer are the petrol stations.

Long-term I think it's only a matter of time before the Rally goes - there are some people who benefit but the number it annoys and those who will say it's not worth the hassle seems to be growing and I reckon it's only a matter of time before there is an organised campaign against it. Honestly I'm surprised that some politician hasn't already positioned themselves as an anti-rally candidate.

So some can where thrown into a garden while the owner was looking. The owner picked them up and put them in the bin. This all took about 30 seconds.
I just feel that we think people are all bad or all good, it comes from psychology. If we don't like someone or group, we think everything about them is bad.
60,000 people turn up for a weekend, they are spending money, end of.
I wouldn't want annoy one to have to put up with hassle, but what are we talking about, some marks on the road and cans in a garden.

1.6% of the fans who showed up were wallys. You'll always have a certain number of wallys no matter who turns up for what ever if 60000 people visit.
Why should the other 98.4% suffer?

abceire

whisky_galore wrote: »

If it could be compared to a match, it would be like a small percentage of the crowd would be acting the gowl outside the stadium long after everyone else had gone home. All the other events seem to have a majority of 'mature' people, or families or different ages groups mixing, these lads just seem to head off at some point and do their own thing to the annoyance of normal folk.

HAve you seen the state of the place around where the big Gaa matches are held up here? And the amount of police used to control everyone.

whisky_galore

abceire wrote: »

HAve you seen the state of the place around where the big Gaa matches are held up here? And the amount of police used to control everyone.

Apart from the pubs and the drinking after, is there any trouble or anyone giving out about it? Are the guards there specifically for the traffic flows?

Re rubbish strewn about afterwards...Having gone on a drive around the country over the weekend, we are a very messy nation. No Dumping signs seem to be a fly tipping magnet.

abceire

Haha I've thought the same about no tipping signs, it's is like it is saying, this is a great spot to tip.
Nope it's not just to help traffic, the amount of people drinking on the street and trying to sneak cans in. But the stadium is there and Gaa has a good image so there is no way that Gaa matches will be cancelled.
I just think certain sports or hobbies are judged differently.
I lived in Finland for a bit, they'd a month meet up for car people, it was in a car park behind a petrol station, people came and did burn outs and donuts and the police never came near them. But I suppose, no one was drink driving, no one was doing it on public street, no one littering, and there were only about 60 to 100 people. Still I couldn't get over the police let them at it.
I just think what we see as terrible these days is different.
Hegemony at work perhaps?

Radio5

I wouldn't want annoy one to have to put up with hassle, but what are we talking about, some marks on the road and cans in a garden.

I think thats being a bit simplistic to put it mildly.

Would like to be kept awake over 3 nights with large numbers of cars modified to make the maximum amount of noise, racing up and down the road in front of your house as if it was a Grand Prix Circuit?

Would you like the same experience for your parents, children, friends or elderly neighbours (who may be living alone and feeling frightened enough as it is with the recent rise in crime)?

Would you like to be hassled and intimated by drivers of said cars congregated on the main road outside your house, as you try to turn off into your own driveway of an evening ?

Would there by any chance not be a road safety issue for motorists going about their business using the roads around Killarney ? Not everyone can stay indoors or go away for May weekend. Some people have to go to work and not everyone works 9-5 so they have no choice but to be on the road when these lunatics are in action.

Its not just a problem of litter, people are well able to litter as it is, rally or no rally.

Its not just a problem of marks on the road, they are unsightly but not half as unsightly as what might easily happen unless this situation is brought under control.

whisky_galore

Radio5 wrote: »

Its not just a problem of marks on the road, they are unsightly but not half as unsightly as what might easily happen unless this situation is brought under control.

In fairness, no community could be reasonably expected to put up with this crap.

Seems to me the status quo will remain until someone gets killed, only then we may expect some serious clampdown.

abceire

Crime rates are actually down,
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/crimejustice/2012/gardacrimestats_2012.pdf
Some people were annoyed by car noise etc, I just think yes I'm over simplifying the issue, but I think there are those who are talking up the issue too. What % of people were kept awake until 3am?
Do we ban concerts because they keep people awake who don't work 9 to 5 in places that are surrounded by homes? We were all young once and got up to stuff, young men have way higher levels of testosterone, if has an effect. I'm just trying to say that it's not like anyone got hurt or property was damaged. So lets try put things in some sort of perspective.

abceire

On a side note, something else we think is on the rise, teenage pregnancies, when actually they are at lowest in 50 years.

kerry4sam

An Garda Síochána were paid 10,000euros just to do their job over the May Bank Holiday in Killarney. No flipping wonder visibility was high. Shame they had to be paid off to bring in necessary resources. If that bribe / monies were not paid to them to do their job, would Killarney have been held to ransom by the excessive trouble that entered out town I wonder

Found that info here.
kerry4sam

dobman88

kerry4sam wrote: »

An Garda Síochána were paid 10,000euros just to do their job over the May Bank Holiday in Killarney. No flipping wonder visibility was high. Shame they had to be paid off to bring in necessary resources. If that bribe / monies were not paid to them to do their job, would Killarney have been held to ransom by the excessive trouble that entered out town I wonder

Found that info here.
kerry4sam

kerry4sam, I enjoy your posts around the boards and I think you make a lot of sense but I really think you are sensationalising this. They obviously have to pay for the extra gardai, if they didn't there probably wouldn't have been any extras. And with all the cutbacks already being made in the AGS then they couldn't have afforded the extra themselves.

Some of my friends were doing door security in pubs in town for the weekend and you should have seen the state of their uniforms after the Sunday night, shirts covered in blood and trousers almost entirely ripped off.

I have worked many rally weekends in pubs and nightclubs in town and I am so happy I will never have to do it again, it really is just a drunken punch up weekend so I am happy the rally paid 10k to AGS.

whisky_galore

Have to go with Dobman on this, good of the rally organisers stumping up rather than the money coming out of the public purse.
The guards would be seriously struggling to cope otherwise. I'm pretty sure organisers of major concerts and events that require a garda presence do something similar.

Boom__Boom

The thing I wonder is whether the €10,000 would actually cover the cost of the extra guards, extra wear on equipment, the "cost" regular Guards unable to carry out their normal duties, extra cost of rubbish cleanup.

It just seems like a suspiciously round number (the lowest possible 5 figure sum) and seems to be that there is every chance it was a "plucked out of aif" figure as opposed to the actual effective cost to the taxpayer. Getting an actual cost to the taxpayer would be very difficult. Pretty much any large event like the rally will involve payment to the Guards. I remember seeing that the GAA pay a massive sum every year to the Guards [can't remember the figure but am pretty sure it absolutely dwarfs the €10,000]and I know MCD were very annoyed about the amount they paid they had to pay the Guards after some of the Phoenix Park concerts where there was hassle a while back. The whole issue of how much event organisers should have to/do actually have to pay in Ireland is very murky.

Also does anyone know where the 60,000 figure everyone seems to be mentioning actually came from? Is this extra visitors that come to Killarney for the weekend? If 60,000 come for the rally but 50,000 stay away because accommodation in their price-range is booked out or they don't want the rally hassle, it casts a whole different light on these figures. If the amount these 50,000 who stayed away is actually greater than the amount the 60,000 spent it's make things very very different. Overall really think that has the feel of a "pulled out of thin air"/PR spin figure.

The fact that the rally paid this €10k and there was still all this hassle might lead one to believe that the amount the rally need to pay should be upped so even more Guards are drafted in next year.

Really not surprised to see a politician come out against this with an election in the offing.

twincamman

as a rally fan/organiser/driver I think the carry on of the boy racers is gone a step too far this year.no other rally event on the island has this much trouble..question is .WHY DOES KILLARNEY ATTRACTS THESE BOY RACERS ?

dobman88

twincamman wrote: »

question is .WHY DOES KILLARNEY ATTRACTS THESE BOY RACERS ?

Simple answer and not far from the truth imo is because it's Killarney. Everyone wants to go to Killarney. It's the only rally I've ever read about in a national newspaper.

In years gone by every local person from Caherciveen to Rathmore would be talking bout the rally, looking forward to it. There was even a stage in Gneeveguilla many years ago and I went out to see it cos it more or less went passed my house, everyone had a great day but now with all this trouble it's time something was done!

Treyvaud's facebook page had this to say

If the Rally in Killarney got rid of these boy racers and their ridiculous cars causing absolute mayhem in town, it would get the entire support of every business in town and surrounding areas. Every year its the same and nothing is ever done about it

https://www.facebook.com/TreyvaudsRestaurant

wotswattage

As I've already said let's not forget the elephant in the room, 2001!

The year there was no rally.
One of the roughest may bank hols ever...

whisky_galore

wotswattage wrote: »

As I've already said let's not forget the elephant in the room, 2001!

The year there was no rally.
One of the roughest may bank hols ever...

The year of the foot and mouth, most if not all outdoor events that people would have gone to otherwise would have been cancelled?...perfect storm.

wotswattage

But its not 'people' I am talking about. I'm talking about scumbags who come down to Killarney for the 'Rally session'. They do't go to a single rally stage, tear around the town all weekend, blacken the roads outside the town, litter and fight all weekend. What annoys me most is the rallying community get tarred with the same brush as these dopes.

floydmoon1

A lot of people seem to say ahh they are just young it is only a bit of noise.

What they are doing is illegal.

There are laws against noise pollution past a certain hour.

Also I doubt if it is legal to drive dangerously and litter the countryside the way they are doing.

Again as most people have said we are not against true rally fans.

Dermot Healy one of the main organisers has also came out strongly against these boy racers and what is happening.

If anyone wants to defend these boy racers just go and put in rally of the lakes in youtube and see what they are up to.

How can people defend this behaviour.

abceire

I'm not defending the behaviour, I'm just saying lets not go on like some donuts on a road is such a terrible crime. Are there no car parks you could use, let them in have marshals, let them donut away. Charge a few pound in to do it and to watch, event pays for self.
I believe this happens in a lot of places.
Take it off the streets. Just an idea. We'd trouble with wild horse in Tallaght, they built a community horse/ stables for the people to use and keep their horses in. Seems better then banning all horses in Tallaght be they in your own field or in a public park.
Don't let the wallys ruin a classic Irish event. Rallying is huge in this country. Lets try sort it out rather then just ban it.
Yes you'll still have loud cars around and yes you'll gave more fights. But you've way more people around in general so this will happen. You might have the same % of fights per 1000 people, it's just now you've 60000 people.

Radio5

abceire wrote: »

Crime rates are actually down,
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/crimejustice/2012/gardacrimestats_2012.pdf
Some people were annoyed by car noise etc, I just think yes I'm over simplifying the issue, but I think there are those who are talking up the issue too. What % of people were kept awake until 3am?
Do we ban concerts because they keep people awake who don't work 9 to 5 in places that are surrounded by homes? We were all young once and got up to stuff, young men have way higher levels of testosterone, if has an effect. I'm just trying to say that it's not like anyone got hurt or property was damaged. So lets try put things in some sort of perspective.

People are people are entitled to live in peace in their homes without this crap at the weekend. Anyone living along the Killarney - Cork road to the County Bounds and in the vicinity of that road, those living on the Killarney-Mallow Road were kept awake for a start and thats a fair few people. And thats only the side of Killarney that I'm aware of. So its not just one or two people.

The old "we were all young once cliche"! I was young once and I didn't go around endangering and upsetting other people by my behaviour, why should I be indulgent of those who do so just because they're young ?

Yes thank God no-one was killed. Not this time.

I'm not advocating that we ban all night time events. The people attending say a concert or a gig don't usually,for example, behave like lunatics on the road for hours after a concert and do so again the following night.

I've no axe to grind with anyone, I'm not "talking up" the issue, just telling you my reality of what happened last weekend.

So sorry if my perspective and concern for others doesn't suit you.:)

madcabbage

There's only one of two realistic options here: 1) Build/open track/park where these dopes can get off on there so called 'driving high' or 2) Stop the rally completely. The first option being very unlikely!

€10,000 paid to Gardai, you could have trebled that and it probably wouldn't have been enough. To have cars holding up the Cork road to do a few tricks is ridiculous. The stories I've heard of what happened in town are disgraceful. Locals being put off from going out in town is just not on.

Nobody benefits from it with the Gleneagles Hotel being the probable exception. The effort that has to go into deterring these people from going near our local scenery i.e Ross Castle, Muckross Park and Molls Gap must be costing the town a small fortune. And don't get me started on the rubbish they leave behind, absolute pigs the lot of them! :mad:

I can't agree with those who believe there's still room for this rally and I don't think I'd be far wrong in saying the majority of the Killarney locals would agree!

I'm sorry if the rally followers are annoyed by comments like this but Killarney is not capable of dealing with trouble of this scale. It's got to go!

abceire

Good use of rhetoric there to sensationalise the debate, lucky no one was killed, was anyone seriously injured from doing doing donuts? How many people were injured in that clip posted up of the cars messing.
I'm not saying this sort of thing should not be stamped out, I'm just trying to say it's not the end of the world and seems a shame to let the long tradition of rally go rather then try stamp out the wally behaviour.
It's ok to disagree though.
I think Patricks Day should be banned, the amount of extra policing, the amount of drunken fights, the bad image it must give to tourists visiting our major cities. Not to mention the litter.