Limerick Rugby

Tim Robbins · 20-11-2008 1:21pm #1

Hi,
I am also interested where clubs get their players from. Usually it's the local school or schools and a few players from the youth clubs (though not many unfortunately) or who have moved to the area.

What's very interesting is the comparison of the ratio Senior Clubs to Rugby Schools between Dublin and Limerick.

In Dublin there are quite a number of Senior clubs (Clontarf, Mary's, Landstown, Belvo, Wesely, Bective) but also quite a large number of decent schools and a few handy youth teams.

In Limerick, there are some excellent senior clubs (Garryowen, Shannon, Crescent, Young Munster,...) but arguably not the same number of decent schools.

So what it looks like is that in Limerick, the player retention is much much much higher than it is in Dublin.

Comments...

Serenity Now! · 20-11-2008 1:28pm

Schools scene in Munster is growing year by year on, what I think is, the Province's senior success. Castletroy is only 6 years old and they've already won their Senior Cup.

Actually the playerbase retention in both provinces is equally not that bad when considering Schools to Club. There is not only the Ireland Schools team but u-18/u-19/u-20 as well as schools youths sides.

For the size of the playerbase in all four provinces, numbers-wise its not doing too badly especially considering the amount of sides in each club. Numbers will swell as per a pattern in line with provincial success.

Could be a lot worse. Could be Scotland or in Australia.

anonymous_joe · 20-11-2008 1:32pm

Advantage of a club system is that you'd often be a member for life.

Of the first team from my year in school, to the best of my knowledge 4 are now starting in the AIL out of the 15. That doesn't count a few who would have been on the side with them who are on the UCD side.

But it does mean that a team was split up.

If you're playing club rugby, from age 12 or whatever, it's conceivable that you could on on the same team for your whole life, whereas those who leave school are obviosuly going to leave their team, and thus have to find a new one, or not bother, hence Leinster's relatively high drop off after school.

Who'd be the schools in Limerick? Crescent and Munchins?

Tim Robbins · 20-11-2008 1:39pm

anonymous_joe wrote: »

If you're playing club rugby, from age 12 or whatever, it's conceivable that you could on on the same team for your whole life, whereas those who leave school are obviosuly going to leave their team, and thus have to find a new one, or not bother, hence Leinster's relatively high drop off after school.

Who'd be the schools in Limerick? Crescent and Munchins?

Ard Scoil Ris and Castletroy. So that's four decent schools (five if you include Glenstall) to 12 or so in Dublin.

Schools Rugby is still a higher standard than youths in Limerick. Can't think of one Munster player from Limerick that came through the youths and not the schools. So considering the number of decent Limerick senior clubs, it really is quite impressive.

dub_skav · 20-11-2008 1:50pm

At my count there are 13 (could be very wrong) AIL teams in Dublin and 6 in Limerick.

I'd imagine there are far more junior clubs in Dublin (again I could be very wrong).

So it looks like both Limerick and Dublin are doing pretty well producing players for clubs v's the number of top schools

Amazotheamazing · 20-11-2008 1:50pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Ard Scoil Ris and Castletroy. So that's four decent schools (five if you include Glenstall) to 12 or so in Dublin.

Schools Rugby is still a higher standard than youths in Limerick. Can't think of one Munster player from Limerick that came through the youths and not the schools. So considering the number of decent Limerick senior clubs, it really is quite impressive.

That's because must club players eventually have to go to school, not because the schools are better than the clubs.

A guy can start underage at 6 or 7, play all the way through to u-12 or so with his club, then switch to schools, before going back to his club when available and when he leaves school.

anonymous_joe · 20-11-2008 2:06pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Ard Scoil Ris and Castletroy. So that's four decent schools (five if you include Glenstall) to 12 or so in Dublin.

Schools Rugby is still a higher standard than youths in Limerick. Can't think of one Munster player from Limerick that came through the youths and not the schools. So considering the number of decent Limerick senior clubs, it really is quite impressive.

Ah ok.

My knowledge of Limerick schools is far from extensive.

Tim Robbins · 20-11-2008 4:21pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

That's because must club players eventually have to go to school, not because the schools are better than the clubs.

A guy can start underage at 6 or 7, play all the way through to u-12 or so with his club, then switch to schools, before going back to his club when available and when he leaves school.

Yes but the players Limerick players come from all of four schools:
1. Crescent
2. Ard Scoil Ris
3. Munchins
4. CastleTroy (Not sure who is from this?).

For three schools to produce so many good playes and effectively be good enough to field several decent AIL clubs is incredible.

What it shows is what can be achieved with small resources.

Tim Robbins · 20-11-2008 4:27pm

dub_skav wrote: »

At my count there are 13 (could be very wrong) AIL teams in Dublin and 6 in Limerick.

I'd imagine there are far more junior clubs in Dublin (again I could be very wrong).

So it looks like both Limerick and Dublin are doing pretty well producing players for clubs v's the number of top schools

Dublin:
1. Tarf, Rock, Mary's, Belvo, Nure, UCD
2. Lansdowne, Bective, DU, DLSP, Wanderers.
3. Suttonians

Limerick:
1. Shannon, UL Bohs, Garryowen, Y Munster
2. Bruff, Thomond, Crescent
3. None.

Let's say you need 65 Rugby players at a club to have enough so that you have a decent Senior 15.
And to keep things really simple, let's assume:
1. Every club player is from their county.
2. 5 come through youths or pick Rugby, 60 come through the schools.

So, Limerick is getting
7 * 60 = 420 out of their schools.
Dublin is getting
12 * 60 = 720 out of their schools.

Now, think about the amount of Rugby schools in Dublin compared to Limerick.

Ok I've simplified it but surely it's obvious player retentation is a lot higher in Limerick.

Amazotheamazing · 20-11-2008 4:56pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yes but the players Limerick players come from all of four schools:
1. Crescent
2. Ard Scoil Ris
3. Munchins
4. CastleTroy (Not sure who is from this?).

For three schools to produce so many good playes and effectively be good enough to field several decent AIL clubs is incredible.

What it shows is what can be achieved with small resources.

Yes and no.

Firstly, you haven't asked how many all male or co-ed secondary schools there are in Limerick city.

They are Sexton St., Ardscoil Ris, St. Nessans, St. Enda's, Castletroy, Gaelcolaiste, Crescent, St. Munchins, Villiers, Glenstal, St. Clement's.

Villiers and Glenstal are small, private schools, Gaelcolaiste is only open three years and is quite small. So they can discounted, imo.

Castletroy is only open six years, did the double last year, first ever titles they won, so no senior players from them either.

Sexton St is all hurling and soccer, the rest all have rugby teams of some sort or other. Keith Earls for example, went to Nessans until after his junior cert. A lot of the smaller schools (Clement's, Nessan's, Enda's) would have teams, just not teams of any great calibre. Good players would leave these schools into the more elite ones after a while, generally.

There are two elite schools, Crescent and Munchin's, Castletroy will probably join them soon enough, Ardscoil is quite a small school, so will always struggle to compete at both rugby and hurling (in recent years hurling has been the main sport there) but all the schools have a team of some sort, except Sexton's afaik.

Tim Robbins · 20-11-2008 5:09pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

There are two elite schools, Crescent and Munchin's, Castletroy will probably join them soon enough, Ardscoil is quite a small school, so will always struggle to compete at both rugby and hurling (in recent years hurling has been the main sport there) but all the schools have a team of some sort, except Sexton's afaik.

Interesting info there. When you count the schools in Dublin playing Rugby at development level, you hit 60 very quickly.

What I was really interested in was the real Rugby schools, the elite schools (I hate that word elite, so forgive my use of it) as these are the schools that generally produce players capable of playing senior Rugby.

So if you reckon there's only two elite schools in Limerick, how many do you reckon are in Dublin?

And would you not agree with the general gist of my point that Limerick is way ahead in terms of successful player developement?

My view is that they are and this is because in Dublin so players give up after school because Rugby doesn't have the wow factor anymore. Whereas in Limerick the tribalness of the clubs give an excitement we don't have here?

Your thoughts...

Amazotheamazing · 20-11-2008 5:42pm

Luckily for us, the Munster schools cup was never as big a deal as it was in either Leinster or Ulster. Frankly, I'm not surprised a lot of guys give up after schools, considering how much rubbish is spouted the importance of the schools cup etc. If you want players to stay in rugby, you need to keep them connected to the clubs. Hardly surprising the Dublin clubs in the top teir of the AIL have strong links to schools.

I would think there's probably 6 or so schools teams in Dublin/Leinster that are better than the best schools team in Limerick every year. Blackrock, Mary's, Clongowes, Belvedere, Michaels, maybe Terenure and possibly Gonzaga. The first 5 I mentioned would probably beat any of the Limerick teams handily enough on any given year. Hence Leinster and Ulster always dominate Irish schools teams.

louthandproud · 20-11-2008 5:54pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Ard Scoil Ris and Castletroy. So that's four decent schools (five if you include Glenstall) to 12 or so in Dublin.

Schools Rugby is still a higher standard than youths in Limerick. Can't think of one Munster player from Limerick that came through the youths and not the schools. So considering the number of decent Limerick senior clubs, it really is quite impressive.

John Hayes

Tim Robbins · 20-11-2008 5:56pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I would think there's probably 6 or so schools teams in Dublin/Leinster that are better than the best schools team in Limerick every year. Blackrock, Mary's, Clongowes, Belvedere, Michaels, maybe Terenure and possibly Gonzaga. The first 5 I mentioned would probably beat any of the Limerick teams handily enough on any given year. Hence Leinster and Ulster always dominate Irish schools teams.

How Rock have won so many SCT's and never even come close to AIL sums up everything, I am trying to say.

anonymous_joe · 20-11-2008 5:58pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

How Rock have won so many SCT's and never even come close to AIL sums up everything, I am trying to say.

In their defence (I feel awful saying that :P) all of the best players from Rock are guarenteed to end up in Leinster or UCD. I can think of two lads I went to school with who ended up playing for Rock because our school doesn't have a club. Take Luke Fitzgerald - best player to come out of Rock in years. Never going to play a game for them in reality.

louthandproud · 20-11-2008 6:01pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Luckily for us, the Munster schools cup was never as big a deal as it was in either Leinster or Ulster. Frankly, I'm not surprised a lot of guys give up after schools, considering how much rubbish is spouted the importance of the schools cup etc. If you want players to stay in rugby, you need to keep them connected to the clubs. Hardly surprising the Dublin clubs in the top teir of the AIL have strong links to schools.

I would think there's probably 6 or so schools teams in Dublin/Leinster that are better than the best schools team in Limerick every year. Blackrock, Mary's, Clongowes, Belvedere, Michaels, maybe Terenure and possibly Gonzaga. The first 5 I mentioned would probably beat any of the Limerick teams handily enough on any given year. Hence Leinster and Ulster always dominate Irish schools teams.

Agree, also the senior Limerick clubs have a very strong recruitment policy from the junior teams all over Munster, who have been providing players to Shannon & Garryowen particularly for years, Y-Munsters probably bring in more through their own youths. Cresent do both, or all three really.

Basically IMHO Leinster clubs are too reliant on the so called big schools almost to the exclusion of others from the game. Which in turn keeps the game somewhat elitist, this is most definitely not the case in Limerick for the most part anyway.

Putting more emphasis on clubs rather than fee paying schools would also bring the game to a wider social grouping, hence possibly a bigger player pool, a desirable outcome for me, but maybe not for all.

Amazotheamazing · 20-11-2008 6:07pm

anonymous_joe wrote: »

In their defence (I feel awful saying that :P) all of the best players from Rock are guarenteed to end up in Leinster or UCD. I can think of two lads I went to school with who ended up playing for Rock because our school doesn't have a club. Take Luke Fitzgerald - best player to come out of Rock in years. Never going to play a game for them in reality.

Why though?

Horan played with Shannon last year, O'Connell played with young Munster, Flannery and Dowling still get odd games with Shannon, Earls played with Garryowen last year (has since moved to Young Munster), Warwick and Barry Murphy are regulars for Ul/Boh's, Sheahan and Mick O'Driscoll still line out for Con when they can.

In Anthony Foley's book he explains in detail what Shannon means to him, and how the AIL is a great breeding ground for Munster talent, guys like Ronan, Buckley and Donnacha Ryan (again with Shannon), Manning, Fogarty, Holland and Ryan (Con) are getting great experience in the AIL.

Leinster rugby doesn't make enough use out of their AIL clubs, imo.

anonymous_joe · 20-11-2008 7:03pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Why though?

Horan played with Shannon last year, O'Connell played with young Munster, Flannery and Dowling still get odd games with Shannon, Earls played with Garryowen last year (has since moved to Young Munster), Warwick and Barry Murphy are regulars for Ul/Boh's, Sheahan and Mick O'Driscoll still line out for Con when they can.

In Anthony Foley's book he explains in detail what Shannon means to him, and how the AIL is a great breeding ground for Munster talent, guys like Ronan, Buckley and Donnacha Ryan (again with Shannon), Manning, Fogarty, Holland and Ryan (Con) are getting great experience in the AIL.

Leinster rugby doesn't make enough use out of their AIL clubs, imo.

Mainly cos I think he's UCD? I might be wrong though. But I know O'Driscoll's UCD. And he's the most famous ex-Rock rugby player.

In fairness, a lot of the guys you mention are fairly far from the first team squad. Leinster have plenty of young guys playing in the AIL, if not as many as Munster. Ours end up at Connact like Keatley. :P

Sundy · 20-11-2008 7:41pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Why though?

Horan played with Shannon last year, O'Connell played with young Munster, Flannery and Dowling still get odd games with Shannon, Earls played with Garryowen last year (has since moved to Young Munster), Warwick and Barry Murphy are regulars for Ul/Boh's, Sheahan and Mick O'Driscoll still line out for Con when they can.

In Anthony Foley's book he explains in detail what Shannon means to him, and how the AIL is a great breeding ground for Munster talent, guys like Ronan, Buckley and Donnacha Ryan (again with Shannon), Manning, Fogarty, Holland and Ryan (Con) are getting great experience in the AIL.

Leinster rugby doesn't make enough use out of their AIL clubs, imo.

Players who are not in the Leinster match day squad or injured play in the AIL, same as every other province. 1st team players who are also selected for Ireland, like BOD, Fitz and say Heaslip will almost never get to play AIL, exccept in a similar case to Leamy who recently played for his club to get game time returning from injury, O'Connell did too.

Niall Ronan played plenty of games for landsdowne while he was up here. Ben Gissing used to play lots of Games for Clontarf. Blaney Plays regurlarly for Terenure. Gary Brown for Blackrock. Toner for Landsdowne. O'Brien & Healy for Clontarf. Trevor Hogan lines out for blackrock sometimes. If theres a Leinster A game the players may not be available to their clubs but thats ok because A is usually a higher standard.

AIL teams with Leinster contracted players in them!
http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/mhidcwmhojcw/

So there we have it, leinster players play in the AIL everyweek, its just you didnt know it or bother to look it up.

louthandproud · 20-11-2008 8:17pm

Sundy wrote: »

So there we have it, leinster players play in the AIL everyweek, its just you didnt know it or bother to look it up.

Jees, less of the aggression please, this forum is getting tiresome.

Amazotheamazing · 20-11-2008 8:39pm

Sundy wrote: »

Players who are not in the Leinster match day squad or injured play in the AIL, same as every other province. 1st team players who are also selected for Ireland, like BOD, Fitz and say Heaslip will almost never get to play AIL, exccept in a similar case to Leamy who recently played for his club to get game time returning from injury, O'Connell did too.

Niall Ronan played plenty of games for landsdowne while he was up here. Ben Gissing used to play lots of Games for Clontarf. Blaney Plays regurlarly for Terenure. Gary Brown for Blackrock. Toner for Landsdowne. O'Brien & Healy for Clontarf. Trevor Hogan lines out for blackrock sometimes. If theres a Leinster A game the players may not be available to their clubs but thats ok because A is usually a higher standard.

AIL teams with Leinster contracted players in them!
http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/mhidcwmhojcw/

So there we have it, leinster players play in the AIL everyweek, its just you didnt know it or bother to look it up.

Firstly, "A" standard is nowhere near as high as top level AIL. Not even close, imo.

And secondly, my point is Munster have more sense than to arrange A games that clash with AIL games. The two should work side by side, not as an either/or option. The MB, when they can, work with the AIL clubs, for example, so far this year they've played training matches against Garryowen and UL/Boh's, which suits both the club and the province.