Ireland's best squad?

Pighead

eirebhoy wrote: »

Looks like 51.8% is the correct figure:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/world-cup-qual-/2008/montenegro-rep-ireland-249439.html
http://sport.setanta.com/en/Sport/News/Football/2008/09/10/World-Cup-Ireland-v-Montenegro-Stats-and-Ratings-/?facets/sport-space/great-britain-locale/football/
http://www.skysports.com/football/match_report/0,19764,11065_2947189,00.html

That makes a difference. Maybe we had 66% possession for that good hour in between though!;)

Apologies. Was sure the Montys had more of the ball that day. Stupid ageing memory. Ok I'll give Ireland half credit for that game then. That's one and a half good games out of seven. Still not good enough Traps!

eirebhoy

Half a good game against Norway too? I'm just trying to big up S.Reid, don't mind me.

LuckyLloyd

Pighead wrote: »

Do you think he's been right so far in his selections?

I don't fully agree with all the decisions he has made, no. But, I don't think people are looking at this the right way round.

- We brought in the manager who held by far the best CV of all those interested and available;
- He has installed a new tactical system and demonstrated a consistent view of how he thinks we should play the game;
- People seem to forget that - assuming the system takes primacy - certain players become automatic beaten dockets during his tenure;

As such, Reid and Garvan are not going to feature for the remainder of this campaign. While I think Reid has been given a ridiculous "messiah" standing by sections of the fanbase and media and isn't anywhere near as good as people make him out to be - that's actually irrelevant. Why? Trapp wants six defenders and four attackers - with the two widemen being able to play at pace and beat people with it. As such, Reid does not fit the profile of the players required. Same thing with Garvan. His credentials aren't as impressive anyway (though he does excite me in terms of potential), but once you accept that he isn't going to get ahead of Doyle and Keane upfront - there is no place in the current lineup for him.

Now, where I disagree with Trapp on selection is in terms of Delap and Carsley. I think Delap's long throws are too much of a weapon, and he is too versatile not to have him in the squad presently. Right now, I think Delap would equal a better on pitch alternative to Gibson or McShane and has experience in Championship and Premiership football at both positions. Similarly, while Whelan played well in our opening salvo of games - he is not in the starting eleven at Stoke. And Carsley is perfect for that role, and has been awesome in the Championship this year.

However, I am sure Trapp and the coaches have considered these possibilities. And it is perfectly understandable if Trapp has decided that he is in this for four to six years before retirement - and therefore has eschewed Delap and Carsley because they realistically will not be viable options two years hence.

What Dunphy and the fans seem to conveniently forget time and time again, is that the players they are crying out for either don't fit the system ideally - or are too old or arguably too inexperienced to be involved right now. Ultimately, I believe that if you bring in an extremely qualified person to do a job - it is nonsensical to complain if his philosophy for completing that job amounts to something that is at odds with your footballing perspective. I can only lol when people start complaining "we're too negative" and "we're being found out". When we've played three competitive games under his charge. And have achieved reasonable results. His system is not going to be pretty or flowing. It isn't designed to be. It's designed to grind out results.

All this whinging amounts to is ammunition that will be hurled in his direction if and when we bust out of WC 2010 contention. Fine. But once the points of disagreement have been aired in detail more than once - you achieve nothing further from harping on about it over and over. If Trapp cared, the squad for yesterday would have been strikingly different. Obviously he is ignoring the noise and banking that his judgment, honed after a long and distinguished career, is superior to that of the fans and media.

And in my opinion, that's a good punt to make. If he's wrong, you will all be able to feel vindicated. Good for you. I'll be lamenting that our best shot at turning around the International team didn't work out. But maybe that is just me.

eirebhoy

Who the hell is Grogan?

Pighead

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

- We brought in the manager who held by far the best CV of all those interested and available;
- He has installed a new tactical system and demonstrated a consistent view of how he thinks we should play the game;
- People seem to forget that - assuming the system takes primacy - certain players become automatic beaten dockets during his tenure;

No offence to the old man but has he ever heard of the word "Flexible". He doesn't have to stick rigidly to the same system for teh entirety of the campaign. Different teams will require different systems, different scenarios in matches will require different players. There is a place for Andy Reid in that squad and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. In my opinion!

LuckyLloyd

eirebhoy wrote: »

Who the hell is Grogan?

You know who I meant! Edited.

LuckyLloyd

Pighead wrote: »

No offence to the old man but has he ever heard of the word "Flexible". He doesn't have to stick rigidly to the same system for teh entirety of the campaign. Different teams will require different systems, different scenarios in matches will require different players. There is a place for Andy Reid in that squad and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. In my opinion!

His opinion obviously differs to yours then. And no disrespect, but his carries a LOT more weight.

eirebhoy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You know who I meant! Edited.

I think Garvan could certainly work in Traps team. He's not an attacking player really. He plays mostly as the deep lying midfielder, taking the ball from defence and controlling the play. He wouldn't get forward too much. He wouldn't be the fastest but he'd make up for it with his positioning.

Pighead wrote: »

No offence to the old man but has he ever heard of the word "Flexible". He doesn't have to stick rigidly to the same system for teh entirety of the campaign. Different teams will require different systems, different scenarios in matches will require different players. There is a place for Andy Reid in that squad and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. In my opinion!

He had me excited when he first took over anyway:
http://www.tribune.ie/sport/soccer/article/2008/aug/17/a-friendly-to-get-acquainted-with-formation/

When discussing the inclusion of the Reids, Andy and Steven, Trapattoni suggested the pair could only play together in central midfield at home against weak opposition. Away, the 69-year-old indicated he would deploy an extra midfielder at the expense of a second striker.

All that might be bad news for Kevin Doyle and those who shadow him, the likes of Andy Keogh, Shane Long and Darryl Murphy, but Andy Reid must be over the moon. As the Irish manager rearranged bottles of soft drink to demonstrate his preferred away formation, it appeared that he would be the one playing ahead of two sitting midfielders and behind a lone striker.

Seaneh

S. Given (Newcastle)
D. Kiely (West Brom)
L.Westwood (Coventry) I really rate this lad, been great for the last 2 -3 seasons.

R. Dunne (Manchester City)
S. Finnan (Espanyol)
K. Kilbane (Wigan Athletic)
J. O'Shea (Manchester United)
D. Delaney (Queens Park Rangers) I really like how he plays.
S. Kelly (Birmingham City) Our best left full, even though he's a right full!
J. O'Brien (Bolton Wanderers) far better than McShane at right full and better than either Gibson or Whelan in the holding role, his exclusion is a total mystery to me.
K. Foley (Wolverhampton Wanderers) solid, solid, solid player.

S. Reid (Blackburn Rovers) Our second best Midfeild player
A. Reid (Sunderland)
K. Andrews (Blackburn) He's no world beater, but he's much better than the two that started last night.
S. Ireland (Manchester City) Our best Midfeild player by a country mile, please God bring him back.
L. Carsley (Birmingham City) for the system trap plays, without reid in the squad, they are crying out for carsley.
M. Rowlands (Q.P.R.) Gives options in the middle and on the right, way over due a cap.
S. Hunt (Reading)
R. Delap (Stoke City) should have about 40 caps at this stage.
A. McGeady (Glasgow Celtic)
D. Duff (Newcastle) how anyone could leave him out of their squad baffles me.

K. Doyle (Reading)
R. Keane (Liverpool)
S. Long (Reading)
C. Folan (Hull) Type of player we've been missing, will keep Sheridans future role warm for him.


That's 25 men though so I'd probably drop Delaney and S. Reid can't play for a year anyway so that's that sorted.

Pighead

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

His opinion obviously differs to yours then. And no disrespect, but his carries a LOT more weight.

That's very disrespectful.:mad:

Listen LuckyLloyd. You know it, I know it, the man on the street knows it. Andy Reid should be in that squad.

You can bang on all day long about Traps record and how I have no right to question him but the facts are that even masters of their trade make mistakes sometimes.

Ferguson has made them, De Valera has made them, Elvis made them, and even God Almighty has made them (Mondays and Belgium are two of the worst creations ever. To say Traps in infallible (and bear in mind this is a 69 year old Traps we're talking about) is ludicrous.

In my opinion (which carries almost as much as Traps, in my opinion again!)

Mr.Nice Guy

S. Given (Newcastle)
D. Kiely (West Brom)
P. Kenny (Sheff. Utd)

K. Kilbane (Wigan Athletic)
R. Dunne (Manchester City)
J. O'Shea (Manchester United)
S. Finnan (Espanyol)
D. Delaney (Q.P.R.)
A. O'Brien (Bolton Wanderers)
J. O'Brien (Bolton Wanderers)
S. Kelly (Birmingham City)

A. McGeady (Glasgow Celtic)
S. Reid (Blackburn Rovers)
S. Ireland (Manchester City)
D. Duff (Newcastle)
S. Hunt (Reading)
O. Garvan (Ipswich Town)
L. Carsley (Birmingham City)
A. Reid (Sunderland)
R. Delap (Stoke City)

K. Doyle (Reading)
R. Keane (Liverpool)
N. Hunt (Reading
C. Sheridan (Celtic)
C. Morrisson (Coventry)

eirebhoy

Just saw this.

http://www.ipswich.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=132409

Midfielder Owen Garvan has been named in the Championship Team of the Week for the third time in four weeks, despite Ipswich losing 1-0 at Doncaster on Saturday.

Last week teammate Alan Quinn was named in the Team of the Week after impressing against Blackpool, while Garvan was named in the previous two teams, the first alongside Kevin Lisbie.

I watched a lot of the Doncaster game and, while he's clearly Ipswich's best player, the team was poor and I'm surprised he made the team of the week. Still though, it seems he's one of the best central midfielders in that division which isn't bad for a 20 year old.

Mr.Nice Guy

eirebhoy, do you know what Garvan's contract status is? Im pretty sure I read somewhere a few months back that Ipswich were trying to get him to sign a new contract but that he'd refused.

leninbenjamin

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'll take a shot:

He is smarter than us idiot fans and media pundits, and doesn't give a **** what we think.

because they play to his system better than than most of the alternatives. Trap isn't a fan of Box to Box or playmaking midfielders within the context of the Irish setup, largely because our wingers are our most effective threat and he's trying to create a system that gets them on the ball as much as possible. He's also a really negative tactician, probably one of the early pioneers of the one-nil stab and grab (within the context of the modern game of course).

eirebhoy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

eirebhoy, do you know what Garvan's contract status is? Im pretty sure I read somewhere a few months back that Ipswich were trying to get him to sign a new contract but that he'd refused.

He signed an extension til 2011. Probably with some clause to let him leave for a certain amount if they don't reach the premiership.

For those that haven't seen them, his 2 goals against Portugal U-21s here:
http://www.mightyfootball.com/portugal-vs-ireland-european-u-21-qual-05092008/

Great clip here of his skill vs England:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5euMLJrtZgc

1 more goal this season and he'll have doubled his career tally so he's not exactly prolific.

Mezcita

Pighead wrote: »

Andy Reid should be in that squad.

No point in having him in the squad if he dosen't fit into the type of team Trap wants to field. Surprised so many people on here want Andy Reid back in.

Too slow. Can't tackle. Meh.

HalloweenJack

GKs:
Given, Kiely, Murphy (Bohs).

DFs:
Dunne, Finnan, O'Shea, A. O'Brien, Kilbane, J. O'Brien, Kelly, McShane.

MFs:
A. Reid, S. Reid, Ireland, Carsley, Fahey, McGeady, Garvan, Duff, S. Hunt.

FWs:
Doyle, Keane, N. Hunt, Morrison, Folan.

AFAIK, Kiely, J. O'Brien and Folan aren't playing regular first-team football and they wouldn't be first choice anyway. Much better than the likes of Whelan and Gibson who are on the fringes of their respective first teams but are guaranteed starters for Ireland.

eirebhoy

Mezcita wrote: »

Too slow. Can't tackle. Meh.

Can say the same about a lot of class players tbh.

newballsplease

Mezcita wrote: »

No point in having him in the squad if he dosen't fit into the type of team Trap wants to field. Surprised so many people on here want Andy Reid back in.

Too slow. Can't tackle. Meh.

hes better than whats in there at the moment, thats for sure.

Het-Field

Pighead wrote: »

Extremely short sighted way of looking at things there tallaght. Yeah we've only been beaten once spo far but in my opinion we haven't played well in all but one of Traps 7 games in charge.

It's like driving an old banger of a car from Dublin to Cork and reaching Mullingar with one wheel almost falling off, smoke pouring out of the engine and a brake pedal which only works some of the time. Most people would bring the car to a mechanic to have it checked out but you'd be shouting out the cracked window "What's the problem, sure aren't we still moving?"

Irelands Seven Games to Date:
Ireland 1 Serbia 1: Poor performance. Got out of jail with an injury time equalizer from Keogh

Ireland 1 Colombia 0: Ok first half but it was Colombia who played all the football and but for an inspired Dean Kiely would have won comfortably

Norway 1 Ireland 1: Another game where we started brightly but were lucky to hang on in the end for a draw

Georgia 1 Ireland 2: Best game by far for Traps. Played really well that day and fully deserved all three points. Got lucky with the fixture change to a neutral venue but still had to get the job done and they did so pretty well.

Montenegro 0 Ireland 0: A step backwards again with a pretty poor performance and quite lucky to come away with a draw.

Ireland 1 Cyprus 0: Again a bright start was overshadowed by a poor 2nd half perfromance against a Cyprus side who in thirteen away games Chad lost nine, drawn two and won just twice (those two victories coming against lowly San Marino and Faroe Islands).

Ireland 2 Poland 3: Poor performance again and 3-2 flattered Ireland. There's only a couple of places between these sides in the rankings yet the Poles looked way slicker.

It's all well and good to say "Oh but he's been getting the results but c'mon, one decent performance in seven shows that something isn't right here and we will eventually be found out unless he changes his mind regarding his midfield selections. It's time to take this team to the mechanic Traps.

In fairness Consider these

Mick McCarthy


Ireland 0 Russia 2. Poor Performance. Missed Penalty, Indiscipline with Roy Keane


Czech Republic 2 Ireland 0 No forward play, exposed at the back


Ireland 0 Portugal 1 Attackingly Blunt, last second lapse brought the goal


Ireland 2 Croatia 2 First goals, best early perfromance

Netherlands 3 Ireland 1 Defensively Frail, Breen header from set piece

USA 2 Ireland 1 Pfofligate in front of goal, two serious mistakes

Mexico 2 Ireland 2 2nd Best Performance

Bolivia 0 Ireland 3 Big win over South American Minows

We subsequently beat Lichtenstein and Macadonia well, before losing to Macadonia, and drawing with Iceland and Lithuania at Lansdowne Road. Now that was poor.

Brian Kerr


Scotland 0 Ireland 2 Good win against a poor team

Georgia 1 Ireland 2 Good character shown in a turbulent venue

Albania 0 Ireland 0 Lucky to pinch a point



Ireland 1 Norway 0 Meaningless friendly win

Ireland 2 Albania 1 Last Second OG gave Ireland the three points

Ireland 2 Georgia 0 Best performance under Kerr


Ireland 2 Australia 1 Early season friendly. Poor until late on.

We subsequently played very poorly against Russia and Switzerland. After draws against Brazil amd France and wins against Czech Republic, Romaina, Jamica, Netherlands, Croatia and Portugal, we threw away two commanding leads against a poor Israel team before falling to France and the Swiss


Steve Staunton

Ireland 3 Sweden 0 Amazingly good

Ireland 0 Chile 1 Very Very Poor

Ireland 0 Holland 4 Rancidly Bad

Germany 1 Ireland 0 Lucky

Cyprus 5 Ireland 2 Worst Irish Result ever

Ireland 1 Czech Republic 1 Very Good

Ireland 5 San Marino 0 Meaningless


Unlike the Staunton era, the results are coming, however, unlike the Kerr era we are not deluding ourselves of a grandeur and strength which doesnt exist.
Football is a result based game, and we have got results when needed

JimiTime

Just to be clear, I think Traps has done a great job in getting Ireland organised. The Poland game was the first time I saw us looking disorganised. No big deal, once off, a friendly. It will be the competitive games that count. My only issue is the CM elephant in the room. People getting on high horses telling me 'Traps knows better' etc doesn't make a blind bit of difference. Nor do I think talking about it is going to make a difference, but this whole forum doesn't make a difference, we just like talking about the game and teams we love. I'll repeat myself again, no-one can justify in football terms, Gibsons selection ahead of Carsely or Reid. As it stands, our CM don't have to do alot of running, so those saying A.Reid is a 'Fat, Lazy Bastard' (something which I vehemently disagree with) have nothing to worry about!

I think the proof is in the arguements. People who don't like those of us who want to see Reid there dramatise it up. 'He's not the messiah' etc. We know he's not the messiah, we know he has failings, BUT HE'S BETTER THAN THE CURRENT ALTERNATIVES! As I said before, I think Traps, Tardelli and Brady are all good football men, so I think its obvious that he's not there because of something other than his ability.

As for Carsely's age. Don't make me laugh. We want to get to the world cup and we want to blood new players. They are not mutually exclusive goals! Carsely will improve our chances, and he fits the system perfectly. He's playing regularly, and playing very well.

LuckyLloyd

JimiTime wrote: »

Just to be clear, I think Traps has done a great job in getting Ireland organised. The Poland game was the first time I saw us looking disorganised. No big deal, once off, a friendly. It will be the competitive games that count. My only issue is the CM elephant in the room. People getting on high horses telling me 'Traps knows better' etc doesn't make a blind bit of difference. Nor do I think talking about it is going to make a difference, but this whole forum doesn't make a difference, we just like talking about the game and teams we love. I'll repeat myself again, no-one can justify in football terms, Gibsons selection ahead of Carsely or Reid. As it stands, our CM don't have to do alot of running, so those saying A.Reid is a 'Fat, Lazy Bastard' (something which I vehemently disagree with) have nothing to worry about!

I think the proof is in the arguements. People who don't like those of us who want to see Reid there dramatise it up. 'He's not the messiah' etc. We know he's not the messiah, we know he has failings, BUT HE'S BETTER THAN THE CURRENT ALTERNATIVES! As I said before, I think Traps, Tardelli and Brady are all good football men, so I think its obvious that he's not there because of something other than his ability.

As for Carsely's age. Don't make me laugh. We want to get to the world cup and we want to blood new players. They are not mutually exclusive goals! Carsely will improve our chances, and he fits the system perfectly. He's playing regularly, and playing very well.

You are not listening. His relative abillity has been rendered an irrelevant issue because of his unsuitability for the current tactical system that is being employed. The style and type of player he represents is not required at present. End.

spiderdan

Any squad without Paul Magnificent McShane in it.

premierstone

spiderdan wrote: »

Any squad without Paul Magnificent McShane in it.

Totally agree and if anyone argues he has to be there cos he can play both CB and FB then why has not one person on this thread included Daren O'Dea he can also cover both positions and a hell of alot better than McShane IMO, dont let Gordan Strachans bewildering refusal to play this guy influence your opinion of him as a footballer he's streets ahead of McShane.

JimiTime

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You are not listening. His relative abillity has been rendered an irrelevant issue because of his unsuitability for the current tactical system that is being employed. The style and type of player he represents is not required at present. End.

No I'm listening alright, and disagreeing. Whatever his style etc, he's still a better option than Gibson. Its that simple. At this point in time he will be sharper, a better tackler and give us a player who can keep the ball and use it. Just because he's not known for his defensive work, does not mean he can't defend. At the moment, all he needs to be is better than Gibson, which he is. But even taking Reid out, what about Carsley? No such arguements can be made about him. Its as simple as this, NO FOOTBALLING REASON CAN PLACE GIBSON AHEAD OF EITHER REID OR CARSLEY IN CM. The fact that Reid has not even been given a chance. You've got to smell a rat. He's not the tackle shy lazy fatso some folk would have you believe. He aint no Liam Brady neither now, but he's better than Gibson. Simple as!
Imagine Gibson and Whelan in CM against Pirlo and Gattuso. We'll be minced! If we're not, I'll come back here and kiss ur @rse with words:)

LuckyLloyd

It's not about him being lazy. He lacks mobility, agility, height and strength. Against top players this means that he is easier to bypass. Certain players will find it much easier (relatively) to dribble past him; to pass by him; to make runs off him; to win headers against him. None of this has much to do with how hard he tries. It's just that he is a relatively poor athlete - which automatically makes him a relatively poor defender. And if your system is designed around having two players who are good athletically and defensively infront of your back four - Andy Reid is automatically ruled out.

Seaneh

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's not about him being lazy. He lacks mobility, agility, height and strength. Against top players this means that he is easier to bypass. Certain players will find it much easier (relatively) to dribble past him; to pass by him; to make runs off him; to win headers against him. None of this has much to do with how hard he tries. It's just that he is a relatively poor athlete - which automatically makes him a relatively poor defender. And if your system is designed around having two players who are good athletically and defensively infront of your back four - Andy Reid is automatically ruled out.

While at spurs Andy Reid routinely socred higher in the beep test than Jenas, Davids, Carrick and Tainio. Was one of the over all fittest players in the club, had the highest tackle per game rate of any player at spurs and one of the highest pass completion rates in the premiership.


Only thing he lacks is height and in all honesty in centre mid it's not an issue. The best midfeild of the last 10 years was the Milan of Pirlo, Ambrosini, Gatausso and Seedorff and none of them are amazingly tall.