Time to drop o callaghan!

NDM

Guys and girls the time has come to drop DOC!!

Why he is still starting matches is beyond me..i say drop him...that will give him the kick up the arse he needs to fight for his place in the team!!

Bring on big mal!! Or even Bob Casey!!

Opinions please...

twinytwo

NDM wrote: »

Guys and girls the time has come to drop DOC!!

Why he is still starting matches is beyond me..i say drop him...that will give him the kick up the arse he needs to fight for his place in the team!!

Bring on big mal!! Or even Bob Casey!!

Opinions please...

Maybe... I mean what does he do really?.. besides the lineout. at least with paul its what u see is what u get

thebaz

agree - and O'Leary , after Tuesdays performance Stringer should be brought back or Reddan - and I'd switch captaincy to O'Connell , and try and generate a bit more Munster passion

phog

NDM wrote: »

Guys and girls the time has come to drop DOC!!

Why he is still starting matches is beyond me..i say drop him...that will give him the kick up the arse he needs to fight for his place in the team!!

Bring on big mal!! Or even Bob Casey!!

Opinions please...

I thought you were on the managment committee of the IRFU when I read the thread title but you're only looking for opinions.

Here's mine, no he's doing fine.

anonymous_joe

thebaz wrote: »

agree - and O'Leary , after Tuesdays performance Stringer should be brought back or Reddan - and I'd switch captaincy to O'Connell , and try and generate a bit more Munster passion

O'Connell?

On what possible basis could you even begin to justify that? His form is miserable. That's definitely the way to encourage our players.

sm.org

anonymous_joe wrote: »

O'Connell?

On what possible basis could you even begin to justify that? His form is miserable. That's definitely the way to encourage our players.

His form is miserable :pac:

Are you talking about POC ??? Because if you are, I'm sorry but thats one of the most ill informed posts I hope I'm ever unlucky enough to read

newdeal

DOC is very up and down. He could go out and have a stormer against the argies. I think it's good to try and develop as many players as possible and while the argie game is important I think it would be good to have plenty of 2nd rows that can come in and do a job.

thebaz

anonymous_joe wrote: »

O'Connell?

On what possible basis could you even begin to justify that? His form is miserable. That's definitely the way to encourage our players.

did he not leat Munster to European vicorty last year - and he strikes me as a much better captain than o'Driscoll - in my mind o'Driscoll is a great player , whose own form has struggled with the captaincy , - remember the World cup ??? what has O'Driscoll achieved as a captain , it needs to switch

p.s O'Driscoll was our best performer at the WC , but leadership ???

puntosporting

He needs to start taking more on i reckon never seem the guy with ball in hand!
The captaincy does need to be looked at i reckon,not gonna suggest anyone i have my favs but it does need a change!
I taught O'Leary had a good game against the all blacks so deserves to keep his place!

anonymous_joe

sm.org wrote: »

His form is miserable :pac:

Are you talking about POC ??? Because if you are, I'm sorry but thats one of the most ill informed posts I hope I'm ever unlucky enough to read

He's been quiet all season.

This is a guy with pretensions to be one of if not the best second row in Europe. Against New Zealand he was quiet and inneffective. His form is miserable only because he's capable of much better.

thebaz wrote: »

did he not leat Munster to European vicorty last year - and he strikes me as a much better captain than o'Driscoll - in my mind o'Driscoll is a great player , whose own form has struggled with the captaincy , - remember the World cup ??? what has O'Driscoll achieved as a captain , it needs to switch

p.s O'Driscoll was our best performer at the WC , but leadership ???

I dunno, O'Driscoll doesn't shout and bellow but he's constantly talking to his team and I don't think I've ever seen someone more willing to put his body on the line for his country.

dreamer_ire

As a Munster fan I agree that DOC has been very very quiet over the last few games, both in red and in green. I also agree that we should be bringing in as many new faces as possible to build the squad but without risking a defeat against Argentina. It's great to see newer players like TOL and Ferris having a go but I'm not sure Mal or Casey (tho I like them both) really help us build for the future.

In terms of captaincy it is time for a change. No doubt whatsoever that BOD has been one of the greatest players ever to wear green however we do need someone who can inspire the team to greater performances. Not sure Kidney will do it just yet but I do feel change is coming down the line.

Jackz

In my opinion MAL is the form Irish lock.

sm.org

So if its BOD , he's playing poorly by his own standards but he's still one of the best in europe.

If its POC he's just plain miserable even though he was clearly one of Irelands better players and was very good for Munster against Leinster and Sale.

Podge_irl

DOC always seems to play better when not partnering POC. He has had some absolute stormers for Ireland when O'Connell has been out injured, but somehow seems to fade away somewhat when POC returns. Ryan is pushing him in Munster as well. I think Mal is playing better, though I can also see why Kidney wouldn't start him. Shame Cullen is injured.

anonymous_joe

sm.org wrote: »

So if its BOD , he's playing poorly by his own standards but he's still one of the best in europe.

If its POC he's just plain miserable even though he was clearly one of Irelands better players and was very good for Munster against Leinster and Sale.

BOD's playing well though...

I'd drop O'Callaghan over O'Connell any day. Think they're both superb players, but internationally have been inconsistent I think.

louthandproud

anonymous_joe wrote: »

O'Connell?

On what possible basis could you even begin to justify that? His form is miserable. That's definitely the way to encourage our players.

O'Connell's form is miserable? On what is that opinion based? When you look at the performances of the rest of the Irish team of late.

As for O'Callaghan, he has probably has gone off the boil alright and maybe needs a kick up the ar*e.

However I don't think Irelands woes which have gone on now since before WC 2007 are down to any single or even a few individual players, people here have really gone after O'Gara, and now O'Callaghan, even BO'D, for all sorts of reasons some genuine, some dubious, some ignorant and some quite obviously provincially based.

The truth is the whole Irish team to a man have a lot to answer for, we have seen Munster win a HEC, Leinster a Magniers and we have seen the Munster 2nds play with fire in their belly just this week the likes of which we haven't seen from Ireland in several years now save one occasion against England in Croker 2 years ago.

Someone tell me that Ireland playing with similar fire last weekend wouldn't have stuck it up to the AB's? And I am not getting provincial here, the same goes for all players from all provinces and clubs, Ireland just do not seem to get fired up any more, I think the Munster 2nds showed us during the week that fire in the belly means more than world rankings and reputation.

What can be wrong? Is O'Gara the man to blame, is it BO'D's captaincy, PO'C's apparent stand out miserable form?, DOC?

Me thinks it's something deeper that can't be attributed to any one person. What exactly I do not know. But I'd love to hear peoples opinions?

corny

louthandproud wrote: »

Me thinks it's something deeper that can't be attributed to any one person. What exactly I do not know. But I'd love to hear peoples opinions?

I agree. There has seemed to be a general malaise about Irelands performances post 6N 2007. I originally thought a change of manager and some young blood would sort us out but after watching the sterile performance against NZ i'm not sure now. I know one thing, if we lose on saturday we would effectively be 9th of the 9 traditional rugby playing nations. Given the players we have at our disposal you'd have to say somethings amiss.

[Jackass]

Both our second rows have been not great for a while now for Ireland.

I don't think Mal is the answer at all. While he's playing great and everything at provincial level, I think it would be a tall order to ask him to come back into the international set up and match the physicality and pace whilst also having the legs on him to finish the season! I also think we're waisting our time with players like Mick O'Driscoll in these squads. If he was going to be an international class second row, he would have shown it by now.

Besides, I think we should always be looking forward to the next players. I was laughed at on here (probably) for suggesting Toner should have been in the extended squad for the Irish training camp of about 30 or 40 players, it was senseless to leave him out!! The guy is going to replace Mal at Leinster and no doubt will some day be capped by Ireland. While he's breaking through this year, why not get him introduced to the players and the set-up and get some time training with the squad. I never suggested he should be anywhere near a match day 22 yet.

It's one item on a small list of things Kidney has done so far that have nagged me, and we're only 2 games into his reign!!

The 3 stand out players at the moment who seem to be the future at second row are Ryan (or backrow) Toner & Caldwell.

Out of the 3 I think Caldwell deserves a shot in the starting line up the most, and I find it incredible that a second row of Casey & Caldwell didn't start against Canada. (that made the list too) We need an obvious 3rd choice in case anything happens and we don't have one. It's got to be one of these guys. . As was illistrated with no confidence in any second row to start them on the bench for NZ (that made the list the second I saw the match day 22 - but look how that one turned out!!)

Lack of competition causes complaicency and ideally you should be looking at blooding almost 2 teams worth of players within reason. And that means taking chances on guys, throwing reputations out the door and closely following the form book. I hope Kidney learns from early mistakes and does this. Someone should be dropped from the second row though and either Caldwell or Casey should get their shot. And not next year or next AI's but now. And we shouldn't be afraid to blood players in the 6 nations either.

You see it all over the pitch. Only now have any competition come in at the backs. The backline picked itself without question for almost 5 years. The ONLY question ever asked was Murphy or Dempsey.

Same with the pack, although it wasn't as bad, we had maybe 3 guys competing for second row (should be at least 4) we always had superb competition in the backrow in fairness and the front row was always picking itself bar hooker which changed hands a few times. (And not whitstanding our complete lack of props).

These situations can't be allowed to occur and for us to be able to play as well as we can play and get the level of performance up to where it can get we need competition and genuine comradery and respectful rivalry in the squad, which I'm not sure we have much of any.

zuroph

NDM wrote: »

Bring on big mal!!

lol

Nukem

zuroph wrote: »

lol

Seconded - lets be realistic, he cannot last 80 mins internationl duty anymore "FACT".

POC is still a better choise and does nothing wrong and has periods of being flat but does have moments of immenseness. DOC I would be inclined to agree, but rather than BOB or MAL i would reckon Caldwell, Toner or even D.Ryan. Guys are performing when they get game time and show an genuine appetite for aggression and contact.

The whole Captain thing is still up in the air. As a forward I am a firm believer in a forward Cpt, but do not think POC is a natural leader. Would like to see what Leamy/Heaslip or Jennings could bring to the table. All young enough with aspirations and have provincial experience with Captaincy.

BOD as Cpt - I think not, look at his form this year for Lenister when they releaved the Captaincy from him.

[Jackass]

I was leaving Cullen out as he's injured, but would reckon he would be clear as 3rd at the moment, but then if the young guys and Casey aren't getting game time, who's to say Cullen will either?

As for cap, yeah I tend to agree, BO'D imo has been an excellent captain and I don't have a problem with him staying on, but there's no doubt he's a better player when he can just concentrate on his own game. No obvious replacement jumps out though. And in a time of such transition it's got to be somebody who is guarenteed their place, and there aren't many of them (or shouldn't be), but the likes of Heaslip, Leamy & Jennings could someday.

I would actually go with somebody like Wallace maybe myself.

twinytwo

louthandproud wrote: »

O'Connell's form is miserable? On what is that opinion based? When you look at the performances of the rest of the Irish team of late.

As for O'Callaghan, he has probably has gone off the boil alright and maybe needs a kick up the ar*e.

However I don't think Irelands woes which have gone on now since before WC 2007 are down to any single or even a few individual players, people here have really gone after O'Gara, and now O'Callaghan, even BO'D, for all sorts of reasons some genuine, some dubious, some ignorant and some quite obviously provincially based.

The truth is the whole Irish team to a man have a lot to answer for, we have seen Munster win a HEC, Leinster a Magniers and we have seen the Munster 2nds play with fire in their belly just this week the likes of which we haven't seen from Ireland in several years now save one occasion against England in Croker 2 years ago.

Someone tell me that Ireland playing with similar fire last weekend wouldn't have stuck it up to the AB's? And I am not getting provincial here, the same goes for all players from all provinces and clubs, Ireland just do not seem to get fired up any more, I think the Munster 2nds showed us during the week that fire in the belly means more than world rankings and reputation.

What can be wrong? Is O'Gara the man to blame, is it BO'D's captaincy, PO'C's apparent stand out miserable form?, DOC?

Me thinks it's something deeper that can't be attributed to any one person. What exactly I do not know. But I'd love to hear peoples opinions?

They should all just player in the munster colours.....

louthandproud

twinytwo wrote: »

They should all just player in the munster colours.....

Going on recent form perhaps Munster or Leinster jerseys, as both of these provences seem to be playing with more heart than the national team of late.

Actually Connaught too while I am at it.

premierstone

[Jackass] wrote: »

It's one item on a small list of things Kidney has done so far that have nagged me, and we're only 2 games into his reign!!

The 3 stand out players at the moment who seem to be the future at second row are Ryan (or backrow) Toner & Caldwell.

Out of the 3 I think Caldwell deserves a shot in the starting line up the most, and I find it incredible that a second row of Casey & Caldwell didn't start against Canada. (that made the list too) We need an obvious 3rd choice in case anything happens and we don't have one. It's got to be one of these guys. . As was illistrated with no confidence in any second row to start them on the bench for NZ (that made the list the second I saw the match day 22 - but look how that one turned out!!)

Lack of competition causes complaicency and ideally you should be looking at blooding almost 2 teams worth of players within reason. And that means taking chances on guys, throwing reputations out the door and closely following the form book. I hope Kidney learns from early mistakes and does this. Someone should be dropped from the second row though and either Caldwell or Casey should get their shot. And not next year or next AI's but now. And we shouldn't be afraid to blood players in the 6 nations either.

You see it all over the pitch. Only now have any competition come in at the backs. The backline picked itself without question for almost 5 years. The ONLY question ever asked was Murphy or Dempsey.

Same with the pack, although it wasn't as bad, we had maybe 3 guys competing for second row (should be at least 4) we always had superb competition in the backrow in fairness and the front row was always picking itself bar hooker which changed hands a few times. (And not whitstanding our complete lack of props).

These situations can't be allowed to occur and for us to be able to play as well as we can play and get the level of performance up to where it can get we need competition and genuine comradery and respectful rivalry in the squad, which I'm not sure we have much of any.

NEWSFLASH

Random internet poster more qualified to manage Ireland than double heineken cup winning manager!!

bamboozle

POC does well for Munster but lets remember he missed most of last season including the group matches where ROG provided the leadership,
i've 2 problems with O'Connell's leadership
1-he seems to call a huge amount of lineout ball to the tail, over in New Zealand last summer, p1ssing rain, Best comes in as sub and POC call's 1st lineout ball to the tail....oh and we lose it
2- he trys to do too much on his own, the amount of times he takes on the ball and gets isolated is very worrying.

I dont rate him or BOD as captains, i'd have gone for the astutness of ROG and i'm a leinster man.
I also reckon DOC's workload at the coal face goes unnoticed.

RichTea

On the evidence of this season the starting two should remain as DOC and POC. Third choice is a toss-up between Micko and Mal.

Inquitus

Toner's another Paddy Wallace lads, don't make me laugh. Micko and Mal, though getting on are head and shoulder's better than he will ever be.

Relevant

How did a thread about Donnacha turn into a debate about POC?

premierstone

Relevant wrote: »

How did a thread about Donnacha turn into a debate about POC?

See there both from munster and inevitably all these discussions tend to end up the same inter-provincial tit for tat crap and its really getting old, Im actually going to go against the grain here im a munster fan and i agree that DOC has been below par for quite sometime but i would also agree with Kidney that due to the importance of this game now is not the time to be trying a new partnership and DOC has delivered for Kidney so many times when been written off or off form before its perfectly uderstandable IMO

themont85

premierstone wrote: »

NEWSFLASH

Random internet poster more qualified to manage Ireland than double heineken cup winning manager!!

This forum would be fairly ****e if nobody had an opinion on what they'd do as coach with regards to selection ect...

RuggieBear

debate post not poster.

no more warnings.

back on topic

premierstone

themont85 wrote: »

This forum would be fairly ****e if nobody had an opinion on what they'd do as coach with regards to selection ect...

Fully accept that, but i do think its a bit OTT to be criticising a new coach after two game in charge in which they won one comprehensivly and were beaten by what are widely recognised as the best team in the world in the other.

themont85

premierstone wrote: »

Fully accept that, but i do think its a bit OTT to be criticising a new coach after two game in charge in which they won one comprehensivly and were beaten by what are widely recognised as the best team in the world in the other.

Fair enough but its just his opinions of the beginning of the new regime. I didn't think the criticism was ott really.

twinytwo

bamboozle wrote: »

POC does well for Munster but lets remember he missed most of last season including the group matches where ROG provided the leadership,
i've 2 problems with O'Connell's leadership
1-he seems to call a huge amount of lineout ball to the tail, over in New Zealand last summer, p1ssing rain, Best comes in as sub and POC call's 1st lineout ball to the tail....oh and we lose it
2- he trys to do too much on his own, the amount of times he takes on the ball and gets isolated is very worrying.

I dont rate him or BOD as captains, i'd have gone for the astutness of ROG and i'm a leinster man.
I also reckon DOC's workload at the coal face goes unnoticed.

With respect a captain has to lead from the front.. and weather u like it or not Drico imo has always done that. WC memories only good ones was Drico trying when no one else did it was a one man "team" versus the pumas and the frogs. Besides a captain needs to be respected and id take a chance at saying that both Drico and POC get buckets of that.

anonymous_joe

louthandproud wrote: »

O'Connell's form is miserable? On what is that opinion based? When you look at the performances of the rest of the Irish team of late.

As for O'Callaghan, he has probably has gone off the boil alright and maybe needs a kick up the ar*e.

However I don't think Irelands woes which have gone on now since before WC 2007 are down to any single or even a few individual players, people here have really gone after O'Gara, and now O'Callaghan, even BO'D, for all sorts of reasons some genuine, some dubious, some ignorant and some quite obviously provincially based.

The truth is the whole Irish team to a man have a lot to answer for, we have seen Munster win a HEC, Leinster a Magniers and we have seen the Munster 2nds play with fire in their belly just this week the likes of which we haven't seen from Ireland in several years now save one occasion against England in Croker 2 years ago.

Someone tell me that Ireland playing with similar fire last weekend wouldn't have stuck it up to the AB's? And I am not getting provincial here, the same goes for all players from all provinces and clubs, Ireland just do not seem to get fired up any more, I think the Munster 2nds showed us during the week that fire in the belly means more than world rankings and reputation.

What can be wrong? Is O'Gara the man to blame, is it BO'D's captaincy, PO'C's apparent stand out miserable form?, DOC?

Me thinks it's something deeper that can't be attributed to any one person. What exactly I do not know. But I'd love to hear peoples opinions?

Miserable was a poorly chosen word.

I think Paul O'Connell's one of the best second rows Ireland's ever produced, and one of the most talented in Europe. I think for Ireland in particular, his performances have been relatively flat and staid for a long time. I think he's capable of better, and I think more competition in the position would offer more variety and more energy. He's one of our better players, so I'd love to see him reach the high standards he set for himself. Has he played miserably? No. Has he played miserably in comparison to what we know he's capable of? I'd stick my neck out and dare to say yes.

dub_skav

I've never understood why the captain has to be the same guy all year. It limits you to picking a guy who will play every game.

In my opinion the captain should be the player who will get the most out of the team on the day. This will change depending on form, injury and personal circumstances.
I don't believe there is any major downside to (possibly) having a different captain every week. Obviously it may be the same guy a lot, but there should be no stigma on removing captaincy and giving it to somebody else

Podge_irl

Inquitus wrote: »

Toner's another Paddy Wallace lads.

Don't think Toner quite has the hands for fly-half, might be an alright 12 though

He's quite young still and has improved immeasurably between this season and the last. Mal and Micko are both still better than him at the moment, but that may well not be the case next year which I think is what people were getting at.

louthandproud

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Miserable was a poorly chosen word.

I think Paul O'Connell's one of the best second rows Ireland's ever produced, and one of the most talented in Europe. I think for Ireland in particular, his performances have been relatively flat and staid for a long time. I think he's capable of better, and I think more competition in the position would offer more variety and more energy. He's one of our better players, so I'd love to see him reach the high standards he set for himself. Has he played miserably? No. Has he played miserably in comparison to what we know he's capable of? I'd stick my neck out and dare to say yes.

I can accept that, but I would still love to know why it is that O'Connell, O'Gara and co. play better for Munster than Ireland.

It isn't just the Munster contingent though, the same goes for the Leinster boys and the rest.

Heard O'Gara's comments on the radio today, and he seems to think the same, he doesn't seem to know what the problem is either.

[Jackass]

After everything I said in this thread I think O'Callaghan and particularly O'Connell played very well in tonights game turning over ball and doing the dirty work, so fair play to them.

razorblunt

I think the perception of DOC suffers because of POC. POC is a better player and argueably gets through more work on the pitch but that doesnt mean that DOC isnt doing anything. You dont see many second rows that are of the standard as POC nowadays. DOC gets through his own fair share of work.

This has been a relatively poor season for him though (maybe even 2 seasons), I think on form basis Ryan and O'Connell are the top 2 second rows in Munster. I'd have Casey, Cullen and Caldwell ahead of Mal though (barring injuries. I think Caldwell has improved alot this season.

beggars_bush

get a few Connacht lads in there

at least they'd die for the GREEN jersey

RugbyFanatic

beggars_bush wrote: »

get a few Connacht lads in there

at least they'd die for the GREEN jersey

None of them are good enough though unfortunately.

bamboozle

bamboozle wrote: »

POC does well for Munster but lets remember he missed most of last season including the group matches where ROG provided the leadership,
i've 2 problems with O'Connell's leadership
1-he seems to call a huge amount of lineout ball to the tail, over in New Zealand last summer, p1ssing rain, Best comes in as sub and POC call's 1st lineout ball to the tail....oh and we lose it
2- he trys to do too much on his own, the amount of times he takes on the ball and gets isolated is very worrying.

I dont rate him or BOD as captains, i'd have gone for the astutness of ROG and i'm a leinster man.
I also reckon DOC's workload at the coal face goes unnoticed.

While fully admitting POC in general had a very good game on saturday, once again his lineout calls were poor, when Best came onto the field of the first 3 lineouts called 2 were to the tail and both were lost.

Junior

razorblunt wrote: »

I think the perception of DOC suffers because of POC. POC is a better player and argueably gets through more work on the pitch but that doesnt mean that DOC isnt doing anything. You dont see many second rows that are of the standard as POC nowadays. DOC gets through his own fair share of work.

This has been a relatively poor season for him though (maybe even 2 seasons), I think on form basis Ryan and O'Connell are the top 2 second rows in Munster. I'd have Casey, Cullen and Caldwell ahead of Mal though (barring injuries. I think Caldwell has improved alot this season.

I don't know if O'Connell gets thru more work on the field, but he does make 'barnstorming' breaks every so often which can either lead to one of two things, complete destruction of all in front of him, or him getting isolated and turning it over. This I think is his fatal flaw.

DOC gets thru a lot of the grafting, I know I've heard someone say it before but the biggest compliment you can pay a second row is you didn't see him at all out on the field, which basically means he's buried into rucks or supporting the carrier.. Must rack the brains and find out where I heard or read that..

I don't know if Caldwell has the brains for International rugby, he was superb against Munster in the ML up until the point he got Yellow Carded, and he's been doing stupid stuff like that the whole time, on an international stage that sort of thing could and would cost you a game.

anonymous_joe

Junior wrote: »

I don't know if O'Connell gets thru more work on the field, but he does make 'barnstorming' breaks every so often which can either lead to one of two things, complete destruction of all in front of him, or him getting isolated and turning it over. This I think is his fatal flaw.

DOC gets thru a lot of the grafting, I know I've heard someone say it before but the biggest compliment you can pay a second row is you didn't see him at all out on the field, which basically means he's buried into rucks or supporting the carrier.. Must rack the brains and find out where I heard or read that..

I don't know if Caldwell has the brains for International rugby, he was superb against Munster in the ML up until the point he got Yellow Carded, and he's been doing stupid stuff like that the whole time, on an international stage that sort of thing could and would cost you a game.

Good points there.

O'Connell's one of Ireland's talismanic players, and the basis of that lies in his potential to make carries. At the end of the day, you'll never hear a bigger cheer in rugby than when one of your players is running into the opposition and making ground. O'Connell's done that for Ireland plenty of times, but it's led to him being hailed as a messianical figure, rather than the very good second row that he is. He's not a miracle worker, he's a very good second-row whose a great pack leader.

Many people maintain that DOC plays better without O'Connell, and I'd be curious as to whether that's true or not. Certainly I'd love to see guys like Casey, Cullen (when fit) and Caldwell see more game time, especially in games we should win.

Podge_irl

I think people are hugely overestimating the effect of "passion" and desire for the jersey. Bowe's move didn't come to nothing because people didn't care enough, it came to nothing because Wallace didn't see the support players. It's not a lack of passion for the jersey that makes ROG play like crap in the Irish jersey, its because he doesn't get the same level of ball from a pack that struggles more at international level then it does at provincial level. The backline's inability to string more than two passes together is a skills issue and all the passion in the world isn't going to fix that.

Some people need to be dropped/get a kick up the arse in order to get them working harder to correct their deficiencies, which is a valid enough point. I think some people too quickly gloss over the fact that some of the Irish players just aren't as good as we like to think.

Crash

Right, old boy, Auvers, RugbyFanatic - if I see another post from any of you that I even THINK is a wind up, intentional or not, you'll be taking a weeks holidays.

Junior

I think what's missing is belief, and this isn't a munster leinster thing, so don't take it that way. Looking back at the world cup from my perspective when bod bawled strings out of it was the start of it showing, that doesn't happen with the respective provinces, if a player makes a mistake, he knows, his team mates work hard to recover from that mistake and given the chance that player will make amends for it.

However this doesn't seem true for the International team, I know Eddie tried to work on the time together so that the team became more of a team, but in fact familiarity bred contempt and that rot has set in, I don't think it's a matter of Munster guys not trusting the Leinster guys or vice versa, it's just a matter of members of the team not trusting each other do the right thing, to have the where withall to carry out the job that they are tasked to do, this leads to leaderless displays, wrong decision making, aimless kicking, and aimelessly running the ball from side to side.

RugbyFanatic

Junior wrote: »

I think what's missing is belief, and this isn't a munster leinster thing, so don't take it that way. Looking back at the world cup from my perspective when bod bawled strings out of it was the start of it showing, that doesn't happen with the respective provinces, if a player makes a mistake, he knows, his team mates work hard to recover from that mistake and given the chance that player will make amends for it.

However this doesn't seem true for the International team, I know Eddie tried to work on the time together so that the team became more of a team, but in fact familiarity bred contempt and that rot has set in, I don't think it's a matter of Munster guys not trusting the Leinster guys or vice versa, it's just a matter of members of the team not trusting each other do the right thing, to have the where withall to carry out the job that they are tasked to do, this leads to leaderless displays, wrong decision making, aimless kicking, and aimelessly running the ball from side to side.

I would tend to agree. One thing I have noticed is that our forwards seem to want to do everything themselves and keep it in the pack the most recent notable example was against Argentina when POC was taking it up and O'Leary litreally was trying to rip it from him to give it out to the backs. Even when it gets out O'Gara seems to just want to kick it.

People keep remarking how the offensive line is flat, well maybe the offensive line is flat because they are expecting the ball to be kicked all the time? If not O'Gara O'Driscoll will kick it. This team seems to be obsessed with kicking.

Our backline offense was one of our strongest points when we were doing well maybe its a case of without Hickey they feel neither winger has the pace to puch holes and as such whats the point in giving it out?

I don't know just throwing these questions out there

thehighground

Redirect from ROG bashing back to DOC bashing

In Sky's Lions watch, this is what they have to say about POC & DOC.

4 Paul O'Connell

In the heat of a battle, there are few players that you'd want alongside you above O'Connell. As tempers flared in Dublin, O'Connell ruffled more than a few feathers as he went nose-to-nose with the Pumas.

5 Donncha O'Callaghan

South Africa have their famed Matfield-Botha combination in the second row, and the Lions would not go far wrong in putting an O'Connell-O'Callaghan pairing in against them. O'Callaghan certainly rose to the challenge in Dublin and proved he is a world-class second row.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12325_4543129,00.html

Irish Independent also rated DOC=9 and POC=8, most the rest 6/7s (9, I think, would have made DOC=MOTM) !

Opinions certainly vary - from "he should be back in the AIL" to "MOTM/starter for the Lions" in the one thread.

anonymous_joe

I think they're both good players, but I think they need to be 'dropped' for two reasons.

1. More versatility in squad selections - O'Connell in particular like O'Driscoll has a habit of throwing his body on the line for his team, and thus getting injured. That's why our defence finally gave up against New Zealand, O'Connell couldn't walk let alone run and they tore through the gap where he was. If guys like Casey, Cullen, Caldwell got more game time at an international level then one of them would have been on the bench and O'Connell would have been off instantly.

2. Competition - it's healthy for any side to have competition for places.